InfoWorld on Redline Smalltalk

It is always tempting to go where others are. Yet, once we get there you might notice that many other people are there as well, and all of a sudden we are less remarkable and we get less attention than we hoped for.

In the meantime, I will continue working with people to make Pharo the thing that others will envy. I do want Pharo to be the odd one out, the Purple Cow. It is exactly by doing something radically different that we have a chance of reinventing software engineering.

Some might think that it is not possible. That we are too small. That we have no funding. That ... there are many reasons to be found for giving up and doing what others are doing. But, I think we are closer to reaching the Purple Cow than we think. We are on an ascending trend and the most important features are not yet out. We still have a hard road ahead of us, but I believe we are approaching a very interesting period in the Pharo history.

I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one. Please rally and focus on the larger goal. Together, we will get there.

Doru

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 5:15 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:

I believe in Redline. I think it's a very important project, strategically.
On Twitter and elsewhere, I am urging contributors to join Redline. It would
be something of a tragedy if Redline failed to reach version 1.0. *We need
Smalltalk on the JVM.*


jamesl wrote
> Hi Smalltalkers,
>
> Redline Smalltalk is not dead although it looks like it.
> I recently made the grammar much cleaner and moved to using Antlr4 as well
> as cleaning up the
> internals. Yes - what is in the core project in github is dormant and I
> have spun off 'stc' to contain
> the the work Im doing until an appropriate time to merge back into that
> main.
>
> I'd love some help but right now you would be limited to copying across
> the runtime library and writing
> tests around it as I concentrate on the bytecode generation and underlying
> code - which is hard to have too many people helping with.
>
> I'm *very* busy in my life right now with a startup (http://mywave.me) and
> personal life but I really
> am trying to find the time to push this along.
>
> I've set myself some fitness, work and Smalltalk goals for this year and
> all going well Redline will be
> out in September. BUT - Please don't hate me.
>
> This is the Year of Smalltalk and we can change the world - one JVM at a
> time ;)
>
> - James.
> Redline Smalltalk





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"Every thing has its own flow"

"I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one"

I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or anywhere on the internet.

I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer. 

It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths. 

I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness. 

I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ?   Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ? 

I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others, especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is.  

PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages  (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at best.  Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008. 

I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may become.  

I think we *really* need a smalltalk-talk mailing list…

On 16 Jan 2015, at 05:44, kilon alios <[hidden email]> wrote:

"I would like to remind people that the aim of the Pharo project is more ambitious than the Smalltalk one"

I would like to hear this grand plan of Pharo, where is it ? Where is the official roadmap ? What are the goals that the core development team agree on ? Why are such a secret and I have never seen them discussed here or anywhere on the internet.

I would not call Pharo odd, Pharo is diffirent but not that diffirent. It offers me a way to code that I prefer over python , but I would not call my experience coding with pharo radically different compared to python coding. Smalltalk used to be the Purple Cow no doubt when it first came out , so many new concepts and ideas that were far apart from anything remotely similar. But nowdays the smalltalk paradigm has been embraced in several fronts , languages and IDEs are moving closer and closer. 

It took python 24 years to get as popular as it is nowdays, the most popular languages have a similar lifespan if not more in some cases. Its a really long process and its full of compromises and ugly truths. 

I also dont like the fact that Pharo calls itself "Smalltalk inspired" its an insult to people who put an effort into Smalltalk by spending hours making code. You cannot be "Smalltalk inspired" by forking code , your at best "Smalltalk based" and that makes you Smalltalk. Ruby can call itself "Smalltalk inspired" , Pharo cannot. This shows to me a very flawed mentality inside the heads of those Pharoers that believe this, its shows me fear , its shows me embarrassment, it shows me weakness. 

I would prefer it if Pharo was advertising itself as a modern Smalltalk implementation as a project that lives true to the Smalltalk philosophy and moves forward. Instead here we are calling Smalltalk "less ambitious" , why ?   Innovativing more than any other language have done so , is not ambitious enough for you ? 

I do believe in Pharo If I did not I would not contribute but I would prefer it without all the hype. Innovate all you want , code whatever makes you happy, live your dream but also respect the dreams of others, especially when you base your success on their success. And yes I will dare say it , Smalltalk has been extremely succesful in many fronts , far more than Pharo currently is.  

PS: Just a clarification because people love to put words on other people mouths, I never said that languages like Clojure and Scheme has been miserable failures generally, but based on the hype of how popular they will become. Both Clojure and Sceme are great language with continuously expanding communities . I was merely wanted to point out how hype does not help and there was tons of hype when Java allowed for the creation of those languages. Jython for example is one of the oldest Java languages  (2001), and there was tons of hype when the project started that Jython could become at worst an equal to Cpython on terms of popularity and even more popular than Java at best.  Sun even funded the development of Jython back in 2008. 

I admire what the creator of Redline done as I admire the effort that has been invested on both Pharo and Squeak. Its really hard to make a competitive product in a world so complex and so demanding as the one we live now. I do believe in Pharo and I hope the best for it but even Pharo never makes it to the top 20 most popular languages even in 30 years I wont lose my sleep over it. I love Pharo for what it is, and not what it may become.