KAT Demo

Since some days, I again wanted open the KAT Demo. I have a full
updated Croquet-Distribution. The Transcript-Window shows after:
connecting to www.croquetcollaborative.org:

ConnectionStrategy: disconnected
ConnectionStrategy: connected
ConnectionStrategy: authenticated
ConnectionStrategy: joined

But the World keeps red! I remember that I already  was there. It also
doesn't work with the Collaborated-Distribution. Does anybody know, if
I am the only lonely guy, whom the collaborative world doesn't open.

m.

How do I get a full updated distribution? All I can find is the SDK 1.0 which never finds any updates and never sees any worlds on the net. I did get it to work locally with two machines. But most of the time the demos open errors and freeze squeak.

http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/Keeping_Image_Current

quoting Søren Renner, 25.08.2007 09:29:29:
> How do I get a full updated distribution? All I can find is the SDK
> 1.0which never finds any updates and never sees any worlds on the net.
> I did
> get it to work locally with two machines. But most of the time the demos
> open errors and freeze squeak.

I'm not clear on something, whether two distant web worlds are actually
one world :

I use mac command key and click in world of pressme button and KAT demo
to get halo and see that the worlds are named differently on the bottom
but the address is still the same and the world in view seems the same.

I wanted to get fast feedback so I canceled going to that distant web
address.

If you, instead, go to the address shown in the dialogue by a web browser,
you will see the lastest version of croquet that produces the pressme button
world.

Once, Howard Stearns had written how we could download the world
from the distant web address and get the same crash locally.

At the time, there was also some remark, I believe by him, that said
there was a problem with distributed garbage collection and he wrote
that the world must be reset out there or it gets longer and longer to load.

I have experienced two other peoples rabbits moving
before the world immediately crashed and so haven't persevered
in rabbit rendevous' but explore other aspects of squeak.

I was very excited to import motion *.bvh files and see Mike's giant fly
in a mirror and in gamer's perspective the seat of his pants.

;-)

Buggy unfinished things remind me I can experiment and observe
with other people and, in fact, help me dealed with more polished software.
Buggy nonaqua experience in blender reminded me of youthful
gesture learning capacities so I could rapidly enter music
into polished software, Logic Express.

Remembering a certain kind of nonverbal learning opened a new channel
for me. There are, according to Alan Kay, different patches of brain tissue
that act as channels of learning and, if one is taught wrong
or one learns wrong can actually interfere with each other.

I too have gotten rabbit through the looking glass locally between two
computers
and practiced installing and doing this on many mac computers. My two pc
install
experiences are, so far, limited.

This croquet is a work in progress and I spend a lot of time
studying the tutorials rather than thinking square one
is getting rabbit rendevous.

No one will be "legally advised" to put in writing "Become a croquet wizard
first
and then worry about being a croquet user.
So let it be written, so let it be done."

;-)

I find learning to be a croquet wizard seems more fun
(I'm not so much alone when trying to follow, on my mac, instructions
made for a pc variant of software),
but every time I find another croquet user
I am happy to be not alone.

You are not alone.

;-)

I am quite new user on this system, but every day I get a little
success :)

quoting [hidden email], 25.08.2007 08:49:23:
> If you, instead, go to the address shown in the dialogue by a web browser,
> you will see the lastest version of croquet that produces the pressme button
> world.

I know that stuff, but that I guess its not necessary (i always have my
problem with this word), since the Wisconsin package is in the
Contributions repository. But after reading more about the router
-Controller- island architecture and messages queues. I understood that
it needs more time after start to replicate the island (that seams to
be simplified and not 100% correct), so I made a tcpdump on port 5910
and voila there went a lot of tcp-packages along. So I waited and
finally I was in. :) :)

Today I read all at the collaborative-side. And they remind me, that I
can can already drag images txt and ase files into the world from my
desktop. So I tried is locally. This was a key-signal to understand a
lot of consumer use-cases and something like that I wanted to see. That
is (with a lot of other ideas) what makes croquet much more usable that
f.e. systems like secondlife. I guess it is a key to improve the wan
connection esp. asynchrones  to get croquet very popular.

m.

On Aug 25, 2007, at 10:49 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> I'm not clear on something, whether two distant web worlds are  
> actually
> one world

See http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/The_Core_Model and the link  
on that page.

> ...
> Once, Howard Stearns had written how we could download the world
> from the distant web address and get the same crash locally.

Admin ->Cache Current World creates a snapshot in cache/<worldname>.c3d.
Copy that file to another machine and when that machine prompts you  
for a machine to connect to, make the address blank/empty. That  
machine will then read the world snapshot that you just put in its  
cache.

>
> At the time, there was also some remark, I believe by him, that said
> there was a problem with distributed garbage collection and he wrote
> that the world must be reset out there or it gets longer and longer  
> to load.
>

The Collaborative provides continuity from one user to the next by  
simply leaving each world running on a box. When you connect, you are  
getting the memory snapshot that is live at that time on the box.

There are a few problems with this approach:

1. When there's a bug, it can leave that process not running. (One  
major source of such bugs is people connecting from mismatched  
versions. It ought to check, but it doesn't.)  This leaves the  
dreaded red screen for new people connecting. (The client ought to  
time out, but it doesn't. The continuity server ought to have a  
watchdog to reset itself, but it doesn't.)

2. The same world is running for a long time, with people coming and  
going, adding and removing things, etc.  In general, Croquet and it's  
underlying Squeak platform do automatically release memory that is no  
longer being used. But Croquet allows you to create an object, me to  
send messages to it, and a third guy to send a message to it to  
delete it. How do we know that I'm not still sending messages to it?  
Better keep it around!  The KAT has a number of hacks to deal with  
this, but over weeks of use, there is some growth to memory. This  
makes that initial synchronizing snapshot get larger and larger. See  
http://www.wetmachine.com/itf/item/769

3. That synchronizing snapshot just has too much stuff in it. It has  
more information than is minimally needed to guarantee the invariant  
of the Core Model. The KAT does not address this.

All of these issues are addressed in the commercial Forums product  
from Qwaq where I work.

Quite correct.  Also note http://www.opencroquet.org/index.php/ 
Developer_FAQs#Keeping_Image_Current which explains that the update  
button isn't used.

Also, the very same image that you connect to by default from the KAT  
demo, is available at http://www.croquetcollaborative.org. It is  
important that you connect to it with a matching version.  See http://
www.opencroquet.org/index.php/Croquet_Collaborative#Help


On Aug 25, 2007, at 9:37 AM, Mathias Krüger wrote: