Layout for placing widgets

> Does that load as part of Bloc?
>
> On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Maybe we should check cassowary
>
> https://croisant.net/blog/2016-02-24-ui-layout-constraints-part-1/#ui-constraints
>
> 2017-10-27 19:13 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
>> alternate placing layout
>> for widgets in spec?
>>
>> Like
>>
>> attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
>> 10pixels attached to the right.
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>
>

>
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 2:37 AM, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> > Does that load as part of Bloc?
> >
> > On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.
> > com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Maybe we should check cassowary
> >
> > https://croisant.net/blog/2016-02-24-ui-layout-constraints-part-1/#
> > ui-constraints
> >
> > 2017-10-27 19:13 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]
> > m>:
> > >
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
> > > alternate placing layout
> > > for widgets in spec?
> > >
> > > Like
> > >
> > > attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
> > > 10pixels attached to the right.
> > >
> > >
> > > Stef
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

> On Sat, 2017-10-28 at 10:48 +0200, Stephane Ducasse wrote:
>> Pavel I do not think that cassowary is good for us.
>
> Why?
>
> Jan
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 2:37 AM, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>> > Does that load as part of Bloc?
>> >
>> > On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Pavel Krivanek <pavel.krivanek@gmail.
>> > com>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Maybe we should check cassowary
>> >
>> > https://croisant.net/blog/2016-02-24-ui-layout-constraints-part-1/#
>> > ui-constraints
>> >
>> > 2017-10-27 19:13 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]
>> > m>:
>> > >
>> > > Hi
>> > >
>> > > I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
>> > > alternate placing layout
>> > > for widgets in spec?
>> > >
>> > > Like
>> > >
>> > > attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
>> > > 10pixels attached to the right.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Stef
>> > >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

>> 2017-10-27 19:13 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>
>>> I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
>>> alternate placing layout for widgets in spec?
>>>
>>> Like...
>>> attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
>>> 10pixels attached to the right.
>
>
>> On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>> Maybe we should check cassowary
>>
>> https://croisant.net/blog/2016-02-24-ui-layout-constraints-part-1/#ui-constraints
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Pavel I do not think that cassowary is good for us.
>
>
> Do you mean Cassowary in particular, or constraint based UI in general?
>
> My naive first impression is, if Cassowary is good enough for Apple...
> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9846992
> https://www.quora.com/Should-I-use-Auto-Layout
>
> and Google (search here for "solver")...
> https://academy.realm.io/posts/cool-constraintlayout-droidcon-boston-2017/
>
> such that "in 2016, both iOS and Android have first-party layout systems
> based on Cassowary."
> https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/
>
> then it seems worth some analysis, and discussion of better alternatives.
>
>
> Coincidentally, I see a Smalltalk implementation is available...
> http://www.squeaksource.com/Cassowary.html
> https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/solvers/cassowary-tochi.pdf
>
>
> For balance, some points against AutoLayout, but some alternatives also seem
> to use Cassowary solver...
> https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/4t6kd5/why_i_dont_use_autolayout/
> https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/
> https://makeapppie.com/2015/10/28/why-stack-views-are-your-best-friend-if-you-hate-auto-layout/
> https://cocoacasts.com/working-with-stack-views/
>
>
> cheers -ben
>
>

>
> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Stephane Ducasse
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Ok then may be we should give a try to use. Tx for the links.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> 2017-10-27 19:13 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>>>
>>>>> I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
>>>>> alternate placing layout for widgets in spec?
>>>>>
>>>>> Like...
>>>>> attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
>>>>> 10pixels attached to the right.
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Pavel Krivanek <[hidden email]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Maybe we should check cassowary
>>>>
>>>> https://croisant.net/blog/2016-02-24-ui-layout-constraints-part-1/#ui-constraints
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Pavel I do not think that cassowary is good for us.
>>>
>>>
>>> Do you mean Cassowary in particular, or constraint based UI in general?
>>>
>>> My naive first impression is, if Cassowary is good enough for Apple...
>>> https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9846992
>>> https://www.quora.com/Should-I-use-Auto-Layout
>>>
>>> and Google (search here for "solver")...
>>> https://academy.realm.io/posts/cool-constraintlayout-droidcon-boston-2017/
>>>
>>> such that "in 2016, both iOS and Android have first-party layout systems
>>> based on Cassowary."
>>> https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/
>>>
>>> then it seems worth some analysis, and discussion of better alternatives.
>>>
>>>
>>> Coincidentally, I see a Smalltalk implementation is available...
>>> http://www.squeaksource.com/Cassowary.html
>>> https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/solvers/cassowary-tochi.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> For balance, some points against AutoLayout, but some alternatives also seem
>>> to use Cassowary solver...
>>> https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/4t6kd5/why_i_dont_use_autolayout/
>>> https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/
>>> https://makeapppie.com/2015/10/28/why-stack-views-are-your-best-friend-if-you-hate-auto-layout/
>>> https://cocoacasts.com/working-with-stack-views/
>>>
>>>
>>> cheers -ben
>>>
>>>

> Cheers,
> -- Pavel
>
> 2017-10-28 21:43 GMT+02:00 Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>     Le 28/10/2017 à 16:26, Stephane Ducasse a écrit :
>
>         I was reading ...
>         I will see if I can load cassowary in Pharo.
>
>
>     https://github.com/ThierryGoubier/Cassowary
>     <https://github.com/ThierryGoubier/Cassowary>
>
>     Done two years ago.
>
>     Thierry
>
>
>
>         On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:21 PM, Stephane Ducasse
>         <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>             Ok then may be we should give a try to use. Tx for the links.
>
>             Stef
>
>             On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Ben Coman
>             <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>                     2017-10-27 19:13 GMT+02:00 Stephane Ducasse
>                     <[hidden email]
>                     <mailto:[hidden email]>>:
>
>
>                         I was wondering if there is a layout that we can
>                         use to propose
>                         alternate placing layout for widgets in spec?
>
>                         Like...
>                         attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box
>                         or fixed size box
>                         10pixels attached to the right.
>
>
>
>                     On Oct 27, 2017, at 12:59 PM, Pavel Krivanek
>                     <[hidden email]
>                     <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>                     wrote:
>
>                     Maybe we should check cassowary
>
>                     https://croisant.net/blog/2016-02-24-ui-layout-constraints-part-1/#ui-constraints
>                     <https://croisant.net/blog/2016-02-24-ui-layout-constraints-part-1/#ui-constraints>
>
>
>
>                 On Sat, Oct 28, 2017 at 4:48 PM, Stephane Ducasse
>                 <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>                 wrote:
>
>
>                     Pavel I do not think that cassowary is good for us.
>
>
>
>                 Do you mean Cassowary in particular, or constraint based
>                 UI in general?
>
>                 My naive first impression is, if Cassowary is good
>                 enough for Apple...
>                 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9846992
>                 <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9846992>
>                 https://www.quora.com/Should-I-use-Auto-Layout
>                 <https://www.quora.com/Should-I-use-Auto-Layout>
>
>                 and Google (search here for "solver")...
>                 https://academy.realm.io/posts/cool-constraintlayout-droidcon-boston-2017/
>                 <https://academy.realm.io/posts/cool-constraintlayout-droidcon-boston-2017/>
>
>                 such that "in 2016, both iOS and Android have
>                 first-party layout systems
>                 based on Cassowary."
>                 https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/
>                 <https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/>
>
>                 then it seems worth some analysis, and discussion of
>                 better alternatives.
>
>
>                 Coincidentally, I see a Smalltalk implementation is
>                 available...
>                 http://www.squeaksource.com/Cassowary.html
>                 <http://www.squeaksource.com/Cassowary.html>
>                 https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/solvers/cassowary-tochi.pdf
>                 <https://constraints.cs.washington.edu/solvers/cassowary-tochi.pdf>
>
>
>                 For balance, some points against AutoLayout, but some
>                 alternatives also seem
>                 to use Cassowary solver...
>                 https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/4t6kd5/why_i_dont_use_autolayout/
>                 <https://www.reddit.com/r/iOSProgramming/comments/4t6kd5/why_i_dont_use_autolayout/>
>                 https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/
>                 <https://www.bignerdranch.com/blog/constraintlayout-vs-auto-layout-how-do-they-compare/>
>                 https://makeapppie.com/2015/10/28/why-stack-views-are-your-best-friend-if-you-hate-auto-layout/
>                 <https://makeapppie.com/2015/10/28/why-stack-views-are-your-best-friend-if-you-hate-auto-layout/>
>                 https://cocoacasts.com/working-with-stack-views/
>                 <https://cocoacasts.com/working-with-stack-views/>
>
>
>                 cheers -ben
>
>
>
>
>

> Hi
>
> I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
> alternate placing layout
> for widgets in spec?
>
> Like
>
> attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
> 10pixels attached to the right.
>
>
> Stef
>

> IMO the right move is to take advantage of this technique/library in Smalltalk :
>
> "The Auckland Layout Model (ALM) is a novel technique for specifying
> 2D layout as it is used for arranging the controls in a GUI. The model
> allows the specification of constraints based on linear algebra, and
> an optimal layout is calculated using linear programming. Linear
> equalities and inequalities can be specified on horizontal and
> vertical tabstops, which are virtual lines that form a grid to which
> all the elements of the GUI are aligned. The described technique
> supports the dynamic adaptation of a layout to changes in the
> environment, e.g. window size, and offers more flexibility than other
> layout managers. "
>
> http://aucklandlayout.sourceforge.net/
>
> Contains various models of layouts:
>
> Border Layout
> Box Layout (BGroupLayout)
>
> Horizontal Layout
> Vertical Layout
>
> Gridbag Layout
> Flow Layout
> Constraint-Based Layout (BALMLayout)
>
> The paper: https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~lutteroth/publications/ZeidlerEtAl2013-AucklandLayoutEditor.pdf
>
> The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPPz1OJwICA
>
> The website: https://www.haiku-os.org/blog/czeidler/2012-09-03_ale_auckland_layout_editor
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Hernán
>
>
>
> 2017-10-27 14:13 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>> Hi
>>
>> I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
>> alternate placing layout
>> for widgets in spec?
>>
>> Like
>>
>> attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
>> 10pixels attached to the right.
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>
>

>
>
> On Sun, Oct 29, 2017 at 8:28 PM, Thierry Goubier <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Hernan,
>>
>> It's difficult to do an evaluation for the underlying solver, because the
>> paper doesn't evaluate that aspect.
>
>
> The solver seems the least interesting part of ALM.   There two orthogonal
> concerns:
> * Generating the constraints - which is probably what distinguishes
> AutoLayout, ConstraintLayout, enaml and the key to usability
> * Solving the constraints - while doing it right is well known, doing it
> efficiently is the challenge which Cassowary has covered.  But ideally the
> solver would be pluggable so performance could be improved later
> substituting an FFI or GPU implemented solver.  Also, if it is feasible to
> include a solver in the main Pharo distribution, it would be great if that
> could be re-used at the business application level.
>
> So the interesting aspect of ALM seems to be:
> * A new algorithm that automatically generates the constraints necessary to
> keep a layout non-overlapping.
> * Many other layout managers rely on a hierarchy of nested layouts to define
> more complex layouts. Within nested layouts, widgets typically cannot be
> aligned across different levels of the hierarchy
> * ALM constraints are specified as horizontal and vertical tabstops, which
> are virtual lines that form a grid to which all the elements of the GUI are
> aligned.
>
> This last point of virtual guidelines echos some ideas that reoccur for me
> from time to time - something similar to how professional designer software
> like Adobe Illustrator operate with virtual guidelines - though they use
> manual placement rather than dynamic constraint based placement.
>
> There is also the Auckland Layout Editor that might provide a good template
> to copy.  We've been missing a GUI editor for layouts.
>
> cheers -ben
>
>>
>>
>> Le 29/10/2017 à 13:11, Hernán Morales Durand a écrit :
>>>
>>> IMO the right move is to take advantage of this technique/library in
>>> Smalltalk :
>>>
>>> "The Auckland Layout Model (ALM) is a novel technique for specifying
>>> 2D layout as it is used for arranging the controls in a GUI. The model
>>> allows the specification of constraints based on linear algebra, and
>>> an optimal layout is calculated using linear programming. Linear
>>> equalities and inequalities can be specified on horizontal and
>>> vertical tabstops, which are virtual lines that form a grid to which
>>> all the elements of the GUI are aligned. The described technique
>>> supports the dynamic adaptation of a layout to changes in the
>>> environment, e.g. window size, and offers more flexibility than other
>>> layout managers. "
>>>
>>> http://aucklandlayout.sourceforge.net/
>>>
>>> Contains various models of layouts:
>>>
>>> Border Layout
>>> Box Layout (BGroupLayout)
>>>
>>> Horizontal Layout
>>> Vertical Layout
>>>
>>> Gridbag Layout
>>> Flow Layout
>>> Constraint-Based Layout (BALMLayout)
>>>
>>> The paper:
>>> https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~lutteroth/publications/ZeidlerEtAl2013-AucklandLayoutEditor.pdf
>>>
>>> The video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPPz1OJwICA
>>>
>>> The website:
>>> https://www.haiku-os.org/blog/czeidler/2012-09-03_ale_auckland_layout_editor
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Hernán
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2017-10-27 14:13 GMT-03:00 Stephane Ducasse <[hidden email]>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> I was wondering if there is a layout that we can use to propose
>>>> alternate placing layout
>>>> for widgets in spec?
>>>>
>>>> Like
>>>>
>>>> attached to  the left 10pixels rubber band box or fixed size box
>>>> 10pixels attached to the right.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Stef
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>