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Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

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Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Aaron Reichow
Hi!

This a call for old versions of Smalltalk.  I used to have a couple  
of them, and feeling the urge to see if they work in DOSbox on OS X,  
I having tried in vain to find them. I did find my copy of Smalltalk/
V 3.0 for DOS and use a computer at my wife's work for this purpose  
to copy files off the 5.25" disks, and it works! This is a graphical  
version of Smalltalk for DOS that doesn't work well in DOSbox,  
perhaps problems with EGA drivers or something.  But I did have  
another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text  
windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the  
software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?

Anyway, if you have a copy of this, could you please send it my way?

In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for  
various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a  
real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance.  
Please email me if you can help me out with this!

Regards,
Aaron

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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Jon Hylands
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:18:42 -0600, Aaron Reichow <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> But I did have  
> another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text  
> windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the  
> software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?

Smalltalk/V 286 was the successor to Smalltalk/V DOS. I worked on a
distributed objects/multi-machine simulation system written in Smalltalk/V
286 back in 1989, and it had a full graphical environment.

You might be thinking about Methods, which was the predecessor to
Smalltalk/V.

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
   Jon Hylands      [hidden email]      http://www.huv.com/jon

  Project: Micro Raptor (Small Biped Velociraptor Robot)
           http://www.huv.com/blog

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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Klaus D. Witzel
In reply to this post by Aaron Reichow
On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 02:18:42 +0100, you wrote:
> Hi!
>
> This a call for old versions of Smalltalk.
...
> In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for  
> various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a  
> real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance.  
> Please email me if you can help me out with this!

I have a backup copy of Smalltalk-80 V2.3R4 for Atari, 6 floppies. I'm not  
sure whether they can be read by any existing hardware but if someone out  
there with related experience can give it a try please contact me.

/Klaus

> Regards,
> Aaron
>
>



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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Blake-5
In reply to this post by Aaron Reichow
On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:18:42 -0800, Aaron Reichow <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for  
> various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a  
> real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance.  
> Please email me if you can help me out with this!

I think I may have my old Visual Age Smalltalk from '95--but that was for  
OS/2!

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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Franz Josef Konrad
In reply to this post by Jon Hylands
That's right. Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical environment.
Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/smt-286.jpg
As you can see from Date today it is pretty fresh and in good shape ;-).
So if you are looking for a text based version of /V I can't help.

Btw, Is there a gallery with screenshots of various smalltalk images
anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one:
http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
It was the try to merge VisualWorks with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise but
as you know it never got into production.

If anybody has a ready to use virtual machine (VMware etc.) with OS/2 3
running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images I would
like to run again.

Regards,
Franz Josef


Jon Hylands schrieb:

> On Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:18:42 -0600, Aaron Reichow <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> But I did have  
>> another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text  
>> windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the  
>> software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
>
> Smalltalk/V 286 was the successor to Smalltalk/V DOS. I worked on a
> distributed objects/multi-machine simulation system written in Smalltalk/V
> 286 back in 1989, and it had a full graphical environment.
>
> You might be thinking about Methods, which was the predecessor to
> Smalltalk/V.
>
> Later,
> Jon
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
>    Jon Hylands      [hidden email]      http://www.huv.com/jon
>
>   Project: Micro Raptor (Small Biped Velociraptor Robot)
>            http://www.huv.com/blog
>
>


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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Aaron Reichow
Franz-

On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote:

> That's right. Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical  
> environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/ 
> smt-286.jpg
> As you can see from Date today it is pretty fresh and in good  
> shape ;-).
> So if you are looking for a text based version of /V I can't help.

Well, I'm not specifically looking for a text-based version of  
Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version  
of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a  
local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do  
with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly  
something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used  
software.  But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks  
of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased.

Jon's mention of Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it.

> Btw, Is there a gallery with screenshots of various smalltalk  
> images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http://
> squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
> It was the try to merge VisualWorks with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise  
> but as you know it never got into production.

Definitely interesting! I don't know of any site like that, but it  
would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get  
access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct  
comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks  
over the years ( GUIdebook =  http://www.guidebookgallery.org/ 
screenshots ).

> If anybody has a ready to use virtual machine (VMware etc.) with OS/
> 2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images  
> I would like to run again.

Unfortunately, I can't help you there! I've very fond memories of OS/
2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.

Regards,
Aaron


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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Sam Adams-2
It was Methods.
I think Steve Burbeck still has a copy.
Steve?

As for other DOS versions, I have the old ParcPlace ST80 for DOS.  It
struggles to run in a dos box, but on an old DOS install it should run
fine.

Sam S. Adams, IBM Distinguished Engineer, IBM Research
Robinson, tie 444-1497, outside 919-254-1497
[hidden email]
Corinthians 1:10>>



                                                                           
             Aaron Reichow                                                
             <revaaron@bitquab                                            
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             squeak-dev-bounce         developers list                    
             [hidden email]         <[hidden email].
             ndation.org               org>                                
                                                                        cc
                                                                           
             02/23/2007 11:04                                      Subject
             AM                        Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for  
                                       DOS                                
                                                                           
              Please respond                                              
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              general-purpose                                              
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Franz-

On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote:
Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical
> environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/
> smt-286.jpg
good
> shape ;-).
help.
Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version
of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a
local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do
with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly
something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used
software.  But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks
of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased.
Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it.
with screenshots of various smalltalk
> images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http://
> squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise
> but as you know it never got into production.
don't know of any site like that, but it
would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get
access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct
comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks
over the years ( GUIdebook =  http://www.guidebookgallery.org/
screenshots ).
with OS/
> 2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images
> I would like to run again.
very fond memories of OS/
2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.





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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Steve Burbeck
Yes, I do have a Methods distribution from 1985 complete with manual, two floppies and the license.  It is an interesting historical note that Digitalk license protected the binary interpreter but gave essentially unlimited rights to the Smalltalk Source Code including rights to distribute, sell, license, lease or loan them as you wish!  So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is home free.  I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the Squeak interpreter to run Methods.  But with Squeak available, who would bother?

Whether the 5.25"  floppies are readable is another matter.  Needless to say, I don't even have a floppy drive to find out.

Regards,
Steve Burbeck

___  Multicellular Computing www.evolutionofcomputing.org ___

In the 20th century we created ever more capable computers.
Now we create ever more elegant groups of collaborating computers.
We recapitulate the biological evolution from single-cell to multi-cell organisms.


Sam Adams wrote:
It was Methods.
I think Steve Burbeck still has a copy.
Steve?

As for other DOS versions, I have the old ParcPlace ST80 for DOS.  It
struggles to run in a dos box, but on an old DOS install it should run
fine.

Sam S. Adams, IBM Distinguished Engineer, IBM Research
Robinson, tie 444-1497, outside 919-254-1497
[hidden email]
Corinthians 1:10>>



                                                                           
             Aaron Reichow                                                 
             [hidden email]                                                    To 
             Sent by:                  The general-purpose Squeak          
             squeak-dev-bounce         developers list                     
             [hidden email]         [hidden email]                                
                                                                        cc 
                                                                           
             02/23/2007 11:04                                      Subject 
             AM                        Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for  
                                       DOS                                 
                                                                           
              Please respond                                               
                   to
              general-purpose                                              
             Squeak developers                                             
                   list                                                    
             [hidden email]                                                   
                                                                           
                                                                           




Franz-

On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote:
Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical
  
environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/
smt-286.jpg
    
good
  
shape ;-).
    
help.
Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version
of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a
local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do
with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly
something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used
software.  But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks
of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased.
Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it.
with screenshots of various smalltalk
  
images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http://
squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
    
with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise
  
but as you know it never got into production.
    
don't know of any site like that, but it
would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get
access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct
comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks
over the years ( GUIdebook =  http://www.guidebookgallery.org/
screenshots ).
with OS/
  
2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images
I would like to run again.
    
very fond memories of OS/
2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.





  


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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

tim Rowledge

On 24-Feb-07, at 10:43 AM, Steve Burbeck wrote:

> So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is home free.  
> I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the  
> Squeak interpreter to run Methods.
Well don't forget that most of the compiler was in the v m as well;  
that would add quite a lot of effort.

To the best of my knowledge I had the first copy of Methods in  
Europe. I was an IBM Research fellow at the time, working on UI stuff  
for 3D  CAD systems. It's rather disconcerting to think that on a 4-
ish MHz 8086 with less than 1MB of ram, it was possible to run a  
tolerable Smalltalk with a snappy UI. Now I have a 4Ghz (split across  
2 cpus) and 2GB ram and the UI is just barely tolerable.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"How many Pak Protectors does it take to change a lightbulb?" "Only  
one, but the lightbulb has to smell right."



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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Aaron Reichow
In reply to this post by Steve Burbeck
Steve-

On Feb 24, 2007, at 12:43 PM, Steve Burbeck wrote:

Yes, I do have a Methods distribution from 1985 complete with manual, two floppies and the license.  It is an interesting historical note that Digitalk license protected the binary interpreter but gave essentially unlimited rights to the Smalltalk Source Code including rights to distribute, sell, license, lease or loan them as you wish!  So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is home free.  I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the Squeak interpreter to run Methods.  But with Squeak available, who would bother?

Whether the 5.25"  floppies are readable is another matter.  Needless to say, I don't even have a floppy drive to find out.


Thanks for the reply! I'm not interested in re-implementing the Methods interpreter in Squeak, or anything like that.  I'm mostly interested in playing around with these old Smalltalk systems, and in general other development and application software from years past. However, that bit of info about the license is really interesting- it's a shame that sort of flexibility is so rare these days.

Would you be willing to lend, give or sell your copy of Methods?  I've access to an older machine with a 5.25" drive, and I can copy the disks and send the files back to you.  

Regards,
Aaron


Regards,
Steve Burbeck

___  Multicellular Computing www.evolutionofcomputing.org ___

In the 20th century we created ever more capable computers.
Now we create ever more elegant groups of collaborating computers.
We recapitulate the biological evolution from single-cell to multi-cell organisms.


Sam Adams wrote:
It was Methods.
I think Steve Burbeck still has a copy.
Steve?

As for other DOS versions, I have the old ParcPlace ST80 for DOS.  It
struggles to run in a dos box, but on an old DOS install it should run
fine.

Sam S. Adams, IBM Distinguished Engineer, IBM Research
Robinson, tie 444-1497, outside 919-254-1497
[hidden email]
Corinthians 1:10>>



                                                                           
             Aaron Reichow                                                 
             [hidden email]                                                    To 
             Sent by:                  The general-purpose Squeak          
             squeak-dev-bounce         developers list                     
             [hidden email]         [hidden email]                                
                                                                        cc 
                                                                           
             02/23/2007 11:04                                      Subject 
             AM                        Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for  
                                       DOS                                 
                                                                           
              Please respond                                               
                   to
              general-purpose                                              
             Squeak developers                                             
                   list                                                    
             [hidden email]                                                   
                                                                           
                                                                           




Franz-

On Feb 23, 2007, at 3:49 AM, Franz Josef Konrad wrote:
Smalltalk V286 is running in a full graphical
  
environment. Have a look here: http://squeak.sava-systeme.de/
smt-286.jpg
    
good
  
shape ;-).
    
help.
Smalltalk/V- I just can't remember for sure what that other version
of Smalltalk is. I purchased it used when I made frequent trips to a
local computer store scouting for any used software that had to do
with programming/IDEs, etc. Speaking of which, that is certainly
something you don't see anymore- computer stores that sell used
software.  But, unlike my Smalltalk/V disks, I can't find the disks
of this mysterious other Smalltalk I once purchased.
Methods sounds familiar, that may have been it.
with screenshots of various smalltalk
  
images anywhere? A couriosity perhaps would be this one: http://
squeak.sava-systeme.de/jigsaw.jpg
    
with VisualSmaltallk Enterprise
  
but as you know it never got into production.
    
don't know of any site like that, but it
would be fun to work on compiling one! Especially if we could get
access to some of the software and create new screenshots, direct
comparison shots. Something like a GUIdebook entry for Smalltalks
over the years ( GUIdebook =  http://www.guidebookgallery.org/
screenshots ).
with OS/
  
2 3 running I would be interested. I have some old VSE OS/2 images
I would like to run again.
    
very fond memories of OS/
2 2.1, though I never had Warp 3 or 4.





  




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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Jecel Assumpcao Jr.
In reply to this post by Steve Burbeck
Steve Burbeck wrote on Sat, 24 Feb 2007 13:43:00 -0500
> Yes, I do have a Methods distribution from 1985 complete with manual, two
> floppies and the license.  It is an interesting historical note that Digitalk license
> protected the binary interpreter but gave essentially unlimited rights to the
> Smalltalk Source Code including rights to distribute, sell, license, lease or loan
> them as you wish!  So, anyone who wishes to reimplement the interpreter is
> home free.  I would guess that it wouldn't be a huge task to repurpose the Squeak
> interpreter to run Methods.  But with Squeak available, who would bother?

Though very off topic for this list, I have an interesting story related
to this. I was building a 68000 based Smalltalk computer when Smalltalk
V/286 came out with exactly the same license you described. This was
before ParcPlace so Digitalk's Smalltalks were the only ones that
mattered. Though it would have been pretty easy for me and the
programmer who worked for me to build our own image from scratch just
following the Blue Book the result wouldn't be entirely compatible with
Smalltalk V and I felt this would be *really* bad for the future of the
language.

So I exchanged some emails with Digitalk's Jim Anderson and then called
him (if the emails were rather expensive for me at the time, an
international phone call from Brazil was absurdly so) to propose that he
let me distribute their image and sources with my machine. I would write
my own virtual machine so Digitalk would have no costs at all and I was
willing to pay some royalties. Note that through their license Digitalk
had already given me permission to do what I wanted without paying them
anything at all! But just because it would have been legal, I didn't
think it would have been nice to do so without asking.

Jim expressed his doubts that I could do what I proposed and said he
would think about it. I am still waiting for his final reply :-)

A couple of years later Digitalk did come out with a 68000 based
product, Smalltalk V/Mac. And much later I found out about other similar
projects they had with some academic and industrial partners at the
time. So he might have felt there would have been some conflicts (my
original impression that they were going to focus exclusively on the PC
was wrong). I think they weren't very serious in their license and
didn't expect anybody to actually copy the other parts without their
virtual machine.

-- Jecel

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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

David Mitchell-10
In reply to this post by Aaron Reichow
Chris Grindstaff did a port of Squeak to DOS back around 1.18. (I ran it
a few times back then on my 486.) Probably still on a server somewhere.

Aaron Reichow wrote:

> Hi!
>
> This a call for old versions of Smalltalk.  I used to have a couple  
> of them, and feeling the urge to see if they work in DOSbox on OS X,  
> I having tried in vain to find them. I did find my copy of Smalltalk/
> V 3.0 for DOS and use a computer at my wife's work for this purpose  
> to copy files off the 5.25" disks, and it works! This is a graphical  
> version of Smalltalk for DOS that doesn't work well in DOSbox,  
> perhaps problems with EGA drivers or something.  But I did have  
> another version of Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text  
> windows, though I can't remember the precise name/version of the  
> software- Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
>
> Anyway, if you have a copy of this, could you please send it my way?
>
> In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk for  
> various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love to see a  
> real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for instance.  
> Please email me if you can help me out with this!
>
> Regards,
> Aaron
>
>



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Re: Looking for old Smalltalks for DOS

Aaron Reichow
David-

Yes, in fact it still is! I've run it too, and it's pretty wild.  
And, just to share, it works great in DOSbox!

Regards,
Aaron

On Feb 27, 2007, at 4:25 PM, David Mitchell wrote:

> Chris Grindstaff did a port of Squeak to DOS back around 1.18. (I  
> ran it
> a few times back then on my 486.) Probably still on a server  
> somewhere.
>
> Aaron Reichow wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> This a call for old versions of Smalltalk.  I used to have a  
>> couple  of them, and feeling the urge to see if they work in  
>> DOSbox on OS X,  I having tried in vain to find them. I did find  
>> my copy of Smalltalk/ V 3.0 for DOS and use a computer at my  
>> wife's work for this purpose  to copy files off the 5.25" disks,  
>> and it works! This is a graphical  version of Smalltalk for DOS  
>> that doesn't work well in DOSbox,  perhaps problems with EGA  
>> drivers or something.  But I did have  another version of  
>> Smalltalk for DOS that worked entirely with text  windows, though  
>> I can't remember the precise name/version of the  software-  
>> Smalltalk/V 286 perhaps?
>>
>> Anyway, if you have a copy of this, could you please send it my way?
>>
>> In addition, I am very interested in any old version of Smalltalk  
>> for  various OSes, though only for Mac and PC hardware. I'd love  
>> to see a  real version of Smalltalk-80 running on an old Mac, for  
>> instance.   Please email me if you can help me out with this!
>>
>> Regards,
>> Aaron
>>
>>
>
>
>


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