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Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

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EstebanLM

Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

Hi,

This is an announce for VM-dev and Squeak-dev list, Pharo-dev list is copy to keep people informed.

Last years I tried to keep a working version of the Mac builds of VM while at the same time trying to keep my job going. It was a hard work but I did my best.
When I assumed the responsibility I said that my first task was going to be to automatize the builds and at the same time Igor was doing the same so I joined that effort. Since then the VM is buildable even by the not so good at VM level and I never seen the point in keeping the manual build or the non-smalltalk-generated configuration files.
Nevertheless, I preferred to work on the new builds of Eliot than in the old interpreter and when keeping all working became more work that what I could manage, I choose to keep Stack and Cog VM working.

Maybe because of that, or because the animosity between communities, or because what I'm doing just does not match Squeak vision, or because since Eliot is providing regular builds mine are not needed, truth is that I've seen my work mostly ignored in squeak community and for some of the people in vm-dev list.

That's why I resign as a maintainer. I have a process that does not match squeak vision and is fair for squeak community to look for someone who does.

I have no bad feelings, I'm complete grateful to the community for give me the opportunity (specially to John, who thrusted me) and to all the rest.

I also know that there is great people both in vm-dev and in squeak-dev, but I cannot your mac-guy anymore (and I think this is obvious since ever).

And of course I will continue working in the pharo flavor of VM :)

Cheers,
Esteban

Edgar De Cleene

Re: Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

On 10/18/13 9:21 AM, "Esteban Lorenzano" <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> This is an announce for VM-dev and Squeak-dev list, Pharo-dev list is copy to
> keep people informed.
>
> Last years I tried to keep a working version of the Mac builds of VM while at
> the same time trying to keep my job going. It was a hard work but I did my
> best.
> When I assumed the responsibility I said that my first task was going to be to
> automatize the builds and at the same time Igor was doing the same so I joined
> that effort. Since then the VM is buildable even by the not so good at VM
> level and I never seen the point in keeping the manual build or the
> non-smalltalk-generated configuration files.
> Nevertheless, I preferred to work on the new builds of Eliot than in the old
> interpreter and when keeping all working became more work that what I could
> manage, I choose to keep Stack and Cog VM working.
>
> Maybe because of that, or because the animosity between communities, or
> because what I'm doing just does not match Squeak vision, or because since
> Eliot is providing regular builds mine are not needed, truth is that I've seen
> my work mostly ignored in squeak community and for some of the people in
> vm-dev list.
>
> That's why I resign as a maintainer. I have a process that does not match
> squeak vision and is fair for squeak community to look for someone who does.
>
> I have no bad feelings, I'm complete grateful to the community for give me the
> opportunity (specially to John, who thrusted me) and to all the rest.
>
> I also know that there is great people both in vm-dev and in squeak-dev, but I
> cannot your mac-guy anymore (and I think this is obvious since ever).
>
> And of course I will continue working in the pharo flavor of VM :)
>
> Cheers,
> Esteban

First

MUCHAS GRACIAS for your work .

It's a bad news a talented man give up because we don't understand the
vision of Pharoers.

Always yours

Edgar

P.S. te espero en Rosario

David T. Lewis

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

In reply to this post by EstebanLM

Esteban,

Thank you very much for your contributions, and thank you also for
clarifying your position. I know there is much more that you will be
contributing to our community at large and I appreciate what you have done
so far.

Dave

>
> Hi,
>
> This is an announce for VM-dev and Squeak-dev list, Pharo-dev list is copy
> to keep people informed.
>
> Last years I tried to keep a working version of the Mac builds of VM while
> at the same time trying to keep my job going. It was a hard work but I did
> my best.
> When I assumed the responsibility I said that my first task was going to
> be to automatize the builds and at the same time Igor was doing the same
> so I joined that effort. Since then the VM is buildable even by the not so
> good at VM level and I never seen the point in keeping the manual build or
> the non-smalltalk-generated configuration files.
> Nevertheless, I preferred to work on the new builds of Eliot than in the
> old interpreter and when keeping all working became more work that what I
> could manage, I choose to keep Stack and Cog VM working.
>
> Maybe because of that, or because the animosity between communities, or
> because what I'm doing just does not match Squeak vision, or because since
> Eliot is providing regular builds mine are not needed, truth is that I've
> seen my work mostly ignored in squeak community and for some of the people
> in vm-dev list.
>
> That's why I resign as a maintainer. I have a process that does not match
> squeak vision and is fair for squeak community to look for someone who
> does.
>
> I have no bad feelings, I'm complete grateful to the community for give me
> the opportunity (specially to John, who thrusted me) and to all the rest.
>
> I also know that there is great people both in vm-dev and in squeak-dev,
> but I cannot your mac-guy anymore (and I think this is obvious since
> ever).
>
> And of course I will continue working in the pharo flavor of VM :)
>
> Cheers,
> Esteban

Casey Ransberger-2

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

(CC squeak-dev, this concerns many people there too.)

Thanks Esteban, I know how this stuff goes.

So we're without a maintainer on the Macintosh platform, and I assume that also means iOS (where we're unwanted anyway, so no big loss there.)

I've been thinking about switching to Android anyway; at least if one buys the Google branded device, we can sideload Squeak and Etoys and Scratch. Unless Apple wants to step up... the obvious strategy is to walk away from them.

I use Macs, as a preference. Most of my life, warm fuzzy feelings about Macs. I'd like to keep Squeak working on Macs, so I can keep using Squeak. Unfortunately, I'm in a particular position wherein I can't make any guarantee about my availability. I have to find a job, and I don't know what this hypothetical job will allow me to do in the open source arena yet, or how many hours I'd be expected to work at the hypothetical job (and let's not shit ourselves, it's really mostly all of them every time.)

It doesn't help that the MagSafe (TM) jack on my laptop is failing. Since it doesn't have a replaceable battery, and I have trouble charging it, I can't even assure that I'd have a Mac to compile the thing on. Still: lots of people use Macs. John's VM has bells and whistles like you wouldn't believe, coming from other platforms. It's a work of art. I've used Squeak on all of the major platforms and I've got to say that the best experience _barre none_ has been on the Mac. John's platform logic.

Anyway I can't commit to anything right now, I really have to find a job, but as long as there's blood in my veins, a modern Mac in front of me, and time to try it, I'll see what I can do to keep us working on the Mac. But I recommend that no one depend on that as a promise, it isn't really, because if you read it clearly: it's a long shot for me at best.

Macintosh users: begin building VMs daily. *Now.* Let's keep this thing happening.

Casey

On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 10:47 AM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:

Esteban,

Thank you very much for your contributions, and thank you also for
clarifying your position. I know there is much more that you will be
contributing to our community at large and I appreciate what you have done
so far.

Dave

>
> Hi,
>
> This is an announce for VM-dev and Squeak-dev list, Pharo-dev list is copy
> to keep people informed.
>
> Last years I tried to keep a working version of the Mac builds of VM while
> at the same time trying to keep my job going. It was a hard work but I did
> my best.
> When I assumed the responsibility I said that my first task was going to
> be to automatize the builds and at the same time Igor was doing the same
> so I joined that effort. Since then the VM is buildable even by the not so
> good at VM level and I never seen the point in keeping the manual build or
> the non-smalltalk-generated configuration files.
> Nevertheless, I preferred to work on the new builds of Eliot than in the
> old interpreter and when keeping all working became more work that what I
> could manage, I choose to keep Stack and Cog VM working.
>
> Maybe because of that, or because the animosity between communities, or
> because what I'm doing just does not match Squeak vision, or because since
> Eliot is providing regular builds mine are not needed, truth is that I've
> seen my work mostly ignored in squeak community and for some of the people
> in vm-dev list.
>
> That's why I resign as a maintainer. I have a process that does not match
> squeak vision and is fair for squeak community to look for someone who
> does.
>
> I have no bad feelings, I'm complete grateful to the community for give me
> the opportunity (specially to John, who thrusted me) and to all the rest.
>
> I also know that there is great people both in vm-dev and in squeak-dev,
> but I cannot your mac-guy anymore (and I think this is obvious since
> ever).
>
> And of course I will continue working in the pharo flavor of VM :)
>
> Cheers,
> Esteban

David T. Lewis

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 01:01:12AM -0700, Casey Ransberger wrote:
> (CC squeak-dev, this concerns many people there too.)
>
> Thanks Esteban, I know how this stuff goes.
>
> So we're without a maintainer on the Macintosh platform, and I assume that
> also means iOS (where we're unwanted anyway, so no big loss there.)
>

Just to be clear, most Squeak users on Mac are using the Cog VM that
is provided by Eliot, and readers of the VM list will be aware that Eliot
is extremely active in VM development lately (be sure to take a look
at http://www.mirandabanda.org/cogblog/ if you have an interest in
this area).

Esteban is also continuing his VM work in the areas of most interest
to him, as he explained. I would encourage you to try Esteban's VM
build with Squeak and see how it works. I don't have a Mac, but I am
curious to know.

We do have shortfalls in our processes for updating the upstream
trunk for the VM, and we have shortfalls in maintaining Mac and
Windows platforms. These are not new issues, and it is clearly an
area that we should improve. But don't be alarmed, the interpreter
VM for Mac is no more or less outdated today than it was last week.

Dave

Bob Arning-2

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

One of the shortfalls is knowing what VMs are actually available. You suggest trying Esteban's, but where is it found? I have tried http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/release/Squeak%205.7.4.1.zip and that handles the trackpad better than COG, but is this Esteban's? It is over two years old, so I'm guessing not. A few more lines of explanation and perhaps a link or two on http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/ would be useful.

Cheers,
Bob

On 10/19/13 9:10 AM, David T. Lewis wrote:

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 01:01:12AM -0700, Casey Ransberger wrote:

(CC squeak-dev, this concerns many people there too.)

Thanks Esteban, I know how this stuff goes.

So we're without a maintainer on the Macintosh platform, and I assume that
also means iOS (where we're unwanted anyway, so no big loss there.)

Just to be clear, most Squeak users on Mac are using the Cog VM that
is provided by Eliot, and readers of the VM list will be aware that Eliot
is extremely active in VM development lately (be sure to take a look
at http://www.mirandabanda.org/cogblog/ if you have an interest in
this area).

Esteban is also continuing his VM work in the areas of most interest
to him, as he explained. I would encourage you to try Esteban's VM
build with Squeak and see how it works. I don't have a Mac, but I am
curious to know.

We do have shortfalls in our processes for updating the upstream
trunk for the VM, and we have shortfalls in maintaining Mac and
Windows platforms. These are not new issues, and it is clearly an
area that we should improve. But don't be alarmed, the interpreter
VM for Mac is no more or less outdated today than it was last week.

Dave

David T. Lewis

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:20:51AM -0400, Bob Arning wrote:

> One of the shortfalls is knowing what VMs are actually available. You
> suggest trying Esteban's, but where is it found? I have tried
> http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/release/Squeak%205.7.4.1.zip and that
> handles the trackpad better than COG, but is this Esteban's? It is over
> two years old, so I'm guessing not. A few more lines of explanation and
> perhaps a link or two on http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/ would be useful.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Bob
>

This was exactly the point of Tim's original inquiry:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2013-October/174063.html

Esteban's message was a follow up to that topic (with some private communication
in between).

Tim was referring to the links at http://squeakvm.org/mac/ which is intended
to provide download links for supported Squeak VMs. The "Latest Builds" section
currently points to Esteban's Pharo derived versions of the VM, and that is
what I meant in referring to Esteban's build.

I am not a Mac user, and I don't know if Esteban's build will work with
Squeak. I am curious to know the answer, that's all. In any case, it is
clear that at some point we'll need a platform maintainer who can answer
questions like this and keep the squeakvm.org/mac page properly updated.

Dave

Bob Arning-2

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

I will give it a try as soon as https://ci.lille.inria.fr is back up.

Cheers,
Bob

On 10/19/13 10:55 AM, David T. Lewis wrote:

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:20:51AM -0400, Bob Arning wrote:

One of the shortfalls is knowing what VMs are actually available. You 
suggest trying Esteban's, but where is it found? I have tried 
http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/release/Squeak%205.7.4.1.zip and that 
handles the trackpad better than COG, but is this Esteban's? It is over 
two years old, so I'm guessing not. A few more lines of explanation and 
perhaps a link or two on http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/ would be useful.


Cheers,
Bob

This was exactly the point of Tim's original inquiry:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2013-October/174063.html

Esteban's message was a follow up to that topic (with some private communication
in between).

Tim was referring to the links at http://squeakvm.org/mac/ which is intended
to provide download links for supported Squeak VMs. The "Latest Builds" section
currently points to Esteban's Pharo derived versions of the VM, and that is
what I meant in referring to Esteban's build.

I am not a Mac user, and I don't know if Esteban's build will work with
Squeak.  I am curious to know the answer, that's all. In any case, it is
clear that at some point we'll need a platform maintainer who can answer
questions like this and keep the squeakvm.org/mac page properly updated.

Dave

Andreas Wacknitz

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

Am 19.10.13 17:15, schrieb Bob Arning:

I will give it a try as soon as https://ci.lille.inria.fr is back up.

Cheers,
Bob

Try http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/mac

Regards,
Andreas

Bob Arning-2

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

In reply to this post by David T. Lewis

Well, trying a different url from the one on the squeak vm page

http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/mac/stable.zip

does run a squeak image on a Mac. I have it running the server for http://69.251.218.6:9116/edit, so we can see how that works.

Cheers,
Bob

On 10/19/13 10:55 AM, David T. Lewis wrote:

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:20:51AM -0400, Bob Arning wrote:

One of the shortfalls is knowing what VMs are actually available. You 
suggest trying Esteban's, but where is it found? I have tried 
http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/release/Squeak%205.7.4.1.zip and that 
handles the trackpad better than COG, but is this Esteban's? It is over 
two years old, so I'm guessing not. A few more lines of explanation and 
perhaps a link or two on http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/ would be useful.


Cheers,
Bob

This was exactly the point of Tim's original inquiry:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2013-October/174063.html

Esteban's message was a follow up to that topic (with some private communication
in between).

Tim was referring to the links at http://squeakvm.org/mac/ which is intended
to provide download links for supported Squeak VMs. The "Latest Builds" section
currently points to Esteban's Pharo derived versions of the VM, and that is
what I meant in referring to Esteban's build.

I am not a Mac user, and I don't know if Esteban's build will work with
Squeak.  I am curious to know the answer, that's all. In any case, it is
clear that at some point we'll need a platform maintainer who can answer
questions like this and keep the squeakvm.org/mac page properly updated.

Dave

Bob Arning-2

Using Pharo VM for Squeak (Mac)

OK, first difference to report:

Using Cog, if I click on a SystemWindow title bar and drag, I get the outline of the window following the mouse pointer around.
Using this Pharo VM, there is no feedback while dragging and the SystemWindow snaps to the correct place when I release the mouse.

Cheers,
Bob

On 10/19/13 12:07 PM, Bob Arning wrote:

On 10/19/13 10:55 AM, David T. Lewis wrote:

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 10:20:51AM -0400, Bob Arning wrote:

One of the shortfalls is knowing what VMs are actually available. You 
suggest trying Esteban's, but where is it found? I have tried 
http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/release/Squeak%205.7.4.1.zip and that 
handles the trackpad better than COG, but is this Esteban's? It is over 
two years old, so I'm guessing not. A few more lines of explanation and 
perhaps a link or two on http://www.squeakvm.org/mac/ would be useful.


Cheers,
Bob

This was exactly the point of Tim's original inquiry:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2013-October/174063.html

Esteban's message was a follow up to that topic (with some private communication
in between).

Tim was referring to the links at http://squeakvm.org/mac/ which is intended
to provide download links for supported Squeak VMs. The "Latest Builds" section
currently points to Esteban's Pharo derived versions of the VM, and that is
what I meant in referring to Esteban's build.

I am not a Mac user, and I don't know if Esteban's build will work with
Squeak.  I am curious to know the answer, that's all. In any case, it is
clear that at some point we'll need a platform maintainer who can answer
questions like this and keep the squeakvm.org/mac page properly updated.

Dave

Eliot Miranda-2

Re: [Vm-dev] Mac VM Maintainer resignation (for the general purpose VM, not for PharoVM)

In reply to this post by Andreas Wacknitz

On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 8:40 AM, Andreas Wacknitz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Am 19.10.13 17:15, schrieb Bob Arning:

I will give it a try as soon as https://ci.lille.inria.fr is back up.

Cheers,
Bob

Try http://files.pharo.org/vm/pharo/mac

but please use my VMs for Squeak. They're at http://www.mirandabanda.org/files/Cog/VM/. Pharo maintains its VMs for Pharo, not for Squeak. I maintain my VMs for Squeak, not Pharo. We're a team :-).

Regards,
Andreas

--
best,

Eliot