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Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend

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Blake-5

Re: "Steps Toward the Reinvention of Programming" (was "Making Squeak more accessible...")

On Thu, 08 Feb 2007 20:04:50 -0800, Craig Latta <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Given that work, is there any point to continuing with the Spoon[1]
> project? E.g., will there be a need for a minimal and extensible object
> memory, and if so, has that problem already been solved and I just
> haven't heard about it? Or does the Spoon work complement this project
> somehow?

I'd hope that Spoon is a little closer in implementation than this.

Damien Pollet

Re: "Steps Toward the Reinvention of Programming" (was "Making Squeak more accessible...")

In reply to this post by ccrraaiigg

2007/2/9, Craig Latta <[hidden email]>:
> haven't heard about it? Or does the Spoon work complement this project
> somehow?

I think it does. AFAIK, Ian's prototype is nearer to a VM than a full
system. I'm not sure it has a persistent object memory, for instance.

--
Damien Pollet
type less, do more [ | ] http://typo.cdlm.fasmz.org

Bert Freudenberg

No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

In reply to this post by Schwab,Wilhelm K

On Feb 4, 2007, at 1:43 , Bill Schwab wrote:
> J.J., FWIW, the few end user apps I have seen written in Squeak all
> use
> SystemWindow for their top-level window. The result is one main
> window
> with a Squeak-generated title bar inside the VM's main window - that's
> wrong from a user's perspective.

I never could understand why Squeak developers do this. It's so easy
to get rid of SystemWindows.

Try this: In a fresh image, get the halo on the PluggableText in the
Welcome window. Take it out with the black handle. Then, get the halo
for the World, set its layout to proportional. Done. You have the
former SystemWindow contents filling the whole Squeak window. Adapts
to resizing, too.

- Bert -

Karl-19

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

Bert Freudenberg skrev:

> On Feb 4, 2007, at 1:43 , Bill Schwab wrote:
>> J.J., FWIW, the few end user apps I have seen written in Squeak all use
>> SystemWindow for their top-level window. The result is one main window
>> with a Squeak-generated title bar inside the VM's main window - that's
>> wrong from a user's perspective.
>
> I never could understand why Squeak developers do this. It's so easy
> to get rid of SystemWindows.
>
> Try this: In a fresh image, get the halo on the PluggableText in the
> Welcome window. Take it out with the black handle. Then, get the halo
> for the World, set its layout to proportional. Done. You have the
> former SystemWindow contents filling the whole Squeak window. Adapts
> to resizing, too.
>
> - Bert -
>
>
>
>

I think it fear of instance based development. Most people/developers
prefer to have class side initialization. Which is kind of unnecessary
with a image.
Karl

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

> Bert Freudenberg skrev:
>> Try this: In a fresh image, get the halo on the PluggableText in the
>> Welcome window. Take it out with the black handle. Then, get the halo
>> for the World, set its layout to proportional. Done. You have the
>> former SystemWindow contents filling the whole Squeak window. Adapts
>> to resizing, too.

I just did it on a 3.9final image: it looks ok but the text does not
respond right to mouse events. instead the World does.

Stef

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

>> Bert Freudenberg skrev:
>>> Try this: In a fresh image, get the halo on the PluggableText in the
>>> Welcome window. Take it out with the black handle. Then, get the halo
>>> for the World, set its layout to proportional. Done. You have the
>>> former SystemWindow contents filling the whole Squeak window. Adapts
>>> to resizing, too.
>
>
> I just did it on a 3.9final image: it looks ok but the text does not
> respond right to mouse events. instead the World does.
>

... works in 3.8 though.

Stef

Bert Freudenberg

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin

On Feb 12, 2007, at 13:06 , Stéphane Rollandin wrote:

>> Bert Freudenberg skrev:
>>> Try this: In a fresh image, get the halo on the PluggableText in
>>> the Welcome window. Take it out with the black handle. Then, get
>>> the halo for the World, set its layout to proportional. Done. You
>>> have the former SystemWindow contents filling the whole Squeak
>>> window. Adapts to resizing, too.
>
>
> I just did it on a 3.9final image: it looks ok but the text does
> not respond right to mouse events. instead the World does.

Works for me. I can select text, or get the context menu.

Anyway, this is just to show that there is *no* need to put
everything into a SystemWindow. It's just that most folks do this
without even thinking about it.

- Bert -

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

> Anyway, this is just to show that there is *no* need to put everything
> into a SystemWindow. It's just that most folks do this without even
> thinking about it.

oh, yes , I agree with you.

just wanted to share my experience...

Stef

Jon Hylands

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg

On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:21:09 +0100, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Anyway, this is just to show that there is *no* need to put
> everything into a SystemWindow. It's just that most folks do this
> without even thinking about it.

Well, some of us write applications that have more than one window...

Later,
Jon

--------------------------------------------------------------
Jon Hylands [hidden email] http://www.huv.com/jon

Project: Micro Raptor (Small Biped Velociraptor Robot)
http://www.huv.com/blog

Stéphane Rollandin

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin

Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
> just wanted to share my experience...

well, my mistake: it did work in *another* 3.9final image... I'm puzzled :)

Stef

Bert Freudenberg

Re: No SystemWindow (was Re: Making Squeak more accessible and used - reversing the trend)

In reply to this post by Jon Hylands

On Feb 12, 2007, at 13:38 , Jon Hylands wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Feb 2007 13:21:09 +0100, Bert Freudenberg
> <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Anyway, this is just to show that there is *no* need to put
>> everything into a SystemWindow. It's just that most folks do this
>> without even thinking about it.
>
> Well, some of us write applications that have more than one window...

Sure. But the original post was about a "full-screen" SystemWindow as
the only window in the application. I have even seen a production
system that does that inside the Squeak plugin - looks really weird.

Anyway, Areithfa Ffenestri to the rescue :)

- Bert -

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