May be the time to start some buzz around our frustration with Apple.

> +1
>
> Ponder how you react to angry political statements from (insert political
> standing you dislike here).
>
> Does that make you more likely to change your mind, or more likely to tune
> the offending opinion out?
>
> On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
>
>> It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk
>> (as for any other vm based language, although the term "interpreted" may
>> be interpreted in different ways excuse the pun).
>> But you, as the chairman of ESUG, should not operate solely as an
>> individual I think. So I would advise against "public" Smalltalkers to
>> throw mud at Apple.
>> In spite of the fact that my age would qualify me to be part of the
>> "protest generation", I never felt that these protests lead to anything.
>> Keeping the dialogue open, especially for ESUG, would be much more
>> effective I think. The approach will be much more effective if it is
>> wrapped in arguments based on progress, quality, and involvement.
>> Qualifying companies as "evil" is not very effective, especially since
>> it identifies companies with "persons" which I think is a metaphorical
>> error.
>> Approach Apple with "concerns" instead of indignation.
>>
>> 2010/4/22 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>
>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic
>> languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually
>> do that with a nice explanation
>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad
>> applications - boycott apple"
>>
>> > http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>> > http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>
>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>
>> Stef (I will do it on my web page).
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>

> +1
>
> Ponder how you react to angry political statements from (insert political standing you dislike here).
>
> Does that make you more likely to change your mind, or more likely to tune the offending opinion out?
>
> On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
>
>> It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk (as for any other vm based language, although the term "interpreted" may be interpreted in different ways excuse the pun).
>> But you, as the chairman of ESUG, should not operate solely as an individual I think. So I would advise against "public" Smalltalkers to throw mud at Apple.
>> In spite of the fact that my age would qualify me to be part of the "protest generation", I never felt that these protests lead to anything. Keeping the dialogue open, especially for ESUG, would be much more effective I think. The approach will be much more effective if it is wrapped in arguments based on progress, quality, and involvement. Qualifying companies as "evil" is not very effective, especially since it identifies companies with "persons" which I think is a metaphorical error.
>> Approach Apple with "concerns" instead of indignation.
>>
>> 2010/4/22 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>
>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
>>
>> > http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>> > http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>
>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>
>> Stef (I will do it on my web page).
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

>
> On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
>
>> It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk (as for any other vm based language, although the term "interpreted" may be interpreted in different ways excuse the pun).
>> But you, as the chairman of ESUG, should not operate solely as an individual I think. So I would advise against "public" Smalltalkers to throw mud at Apple.
>> In spite of the fact that my age would qualify me to be part of the "protest generation", I never felt that these protests lead to anything. Keeping the dialogue open, especially for ESUG, would be much more effective I think. The approach will be much more effective if it is wrapped in arguments based on progress, quality, and involvement. Qualifying companies as "evil" is not very effective, especially since it identifies companies with "persons" which I think is a metaphorical error.
>> Approach Apple with "concerns" instead of indignation.
>>
>> 2010/4/22 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>
>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
>>
>> > http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>> > http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>
>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>
>> Stef (I will do it on my web page).
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

> Guys
>
> You are showing that ESUG should not do anything and this is perfect! I have something else to do with my energy.
> I will not the question with the board. This will save us a lot of time and discussion. This is my last post on the topic.
> It is too easy to talk and less to do. So I will be watching you in action.
>
> And on my web site I will write what I think!
> Apple is damaging my language and I do not like that.
>
> Stef
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2010, at 6:14 PM, James Robertson wrote:
>
>> +1
>>
>> Ponder how you react to angry political statements from (insert political standing you dislike here).
>>
>> Does that make you more likely to change your mind, or more likely to tune the offending opinion out?
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
>>
>>> It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk (as for any other vm based language, although the term "interpreted" may be interpreted in different ways excuse the pun).
>>> But you, as the chairman of ESUG, should not operate solely as an individual I think. So I would advise against "public" Smalltalkers to throw mud at Apple.
>>> In spite of the fact that my age would qualify me to be part of the "protest generation", I never felt that these protests lead to anything. Keeping the dialogue open, especially for ESUG, would be much more effective I think. The approach will be much more effective if it is wrapped in arguments based on progress, quality, and involvement. Qualifying companies as "evil" is not very effective, especially since it identifies companies with "persons" which I think is a metaphorical error.
>>> Approach Apple with "concerns" instead of indignation.
>>>
>>> 2010/4/22 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>
>>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
>>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
>>>
>>>> http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>>>> http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>>
>>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>>
>>> Stef (I will do it on my web page).
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

> On Apr 22, 2010, at 6:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
>
>    
>> It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk (as for any other vm based language, although the term "interpreted" may be interpreted in different ways excuse the pun).
>> But you, as the chairman of ESUG, should not operate solely as an individual I think. So I would advise against "public" Smalltalkers to throw mud at Apple.
>> In spite of the fact that my age would qualify me to be part of the "protest generation", I never felt that these protests lead to anything.
>>      
> may be others did it for you :)
>
>    
>>   Keeping the dialogue open,
>>      
> dialog ?
> come one guys are you dreaming. There is no dialog. Start to rehearse your javascript or objective-C.
>
>    

>> especially for ESUG, would be much more effective I think. The approach will be much more effective if it is wrapped in arguments based on progress, quality, and involvement. Qualifying companies as "evil" is not very effective, especially since it identifies companies with "persons" which I think is a metaphorical error.
>> Approach Apple with "concerns" instead of indignation.
>>      
> who can approach Apple from the esug community?
> Not me.
> And as an individual I will put what I want on my web page and I will say what I think about the Apple attitude over my language.
> And I will buy less apple products. I'm waiting to cancel our ipad order.
>
> Stef_______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
>
>    

> I'm not saying "do nothing" - I'm saying "consider what might have a snowball's chance in hell of working"
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> Guys
>>
>> You are showing that ESUG should not do anything and this is perfect! I have something else to do with my energy.
>> I will not the question with the board. This will save us a lot of time and discussion. This is my last post on the topic.
>> It is too easy to talk and less to do. So I will be watching you in action.
>>
>> And on my web site I will write what I think!
>> Apple is damaging my language and I do not like that.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2010, at 6:14 PM, James Robertson wrote:
>>
>>> +1
>>>
>>> Ponder how you react to angry political statements from (insert political standing you dislike here).
>>>
>>> Does that make you more likely to change your mind, or more likely to tune the offending opinion out?
>>>
>>> On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
>>>
>>>> It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk (as for any other vm based language, although the term "interpreted" may be interpreted in different ways excuse the pun).
>>>> But you, as the chairman of ESUG, should not operate solely as an individual I think. So I would advise against "public" Smalltalkers to throw mud at Apple.
>>>> In spite of the fact that my age would qualify me to be part of the "protest generation", I never felt that these protests lead to anything. Keeping the dialogue open, especially for ESUG, would be much more effective I think. The approach will be much more effective if it is wrapped in arguments based on progress, quality, and involvement. Qualifying companies as "evil" is not very effective, especially since it identifies companies with "persons" which I think is a metaphorical error.
>>>> Approach Apple with "concerns" instead of indignation.
>>>>
>>>> 2010/4/22 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>
>>>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>>>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
>>>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>>>>> http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>>>
>>>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>>>
>>>> Stef (I will do it on my web page).

>Guys, I also don't understand that language, please use English
>"Vulgata" on international forums :)
>
>Janko
>
>On 22. 04. 2010 21:34, James Robertson wrote:
>  
>
>>I'm not saying "do nothing" - I'm saying "consider what might have a snowball's chance in hell of working"
>>
>>
>>On Apr 22, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>>
>>    
>>
>>>Guys
>>>
>>>You are showing that ESUG should not do anything and this is perfect! I have something else to do with my energy.
>>>I will not the question with the board. This will save us a lot of time and discussion. This is my last post on the topic.
>>>It is too easy to talk and less to do. So I will be watching you in action.
>>>
>>>And on my web site I will write what I think!
>>>Apple is damaging my language and I do not like that.
>>>
>>>Stef
>>>
>>>
>>>On Apr 22, 2010, at 6:14 PM, James Robertson wrote:
>>>
>>>      
>>>
>>>>+1
>>>>
>>>>Ponder how you react to angry political statements from (insert political standing you dislike here).
>>>>
>>>>Does that make you more likely to change your mind, or more likely to tune the offending opinion out?
>>>>
>>>>On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
>>>>
>>>>        
>>>>
>>>>>It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk (as for any other vm based language, although the term "interpreted" may be interpreted in different ways excuse the pun).
>>>>>But you, as the chairman of ESUG, should not operate solely as an individual I think. So I would advise against "public" Smalltalkers to throw mud at Apple.
>>>>>In spite of the fact that my age would qualify me to be part of the "protest generation", I never felt that these protests lead to anything. Keeping the dialogue open, especially for ESUG, would be much more effective I think. The approach will be much more effective if it is wrapped in arguments based on progress, quality, and involvement. Qualifying companies as "evil" is not very effective, especially since it identifies companies with "persons" which I think is a metaphorical error.
>>>>>Approach Apple with "concerns" instead of indignation.
>>>>>
>>>>>2010/4/22 stephane ducasse <[hidden email]>
>>>>>I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>>>>>web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
>>>>>"apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
>>>>>
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>>>http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>>>>>>http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>>>>>            
>>>>>>
>>>>>And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>>>>
>>>>>Stef (I will do it on my web page).
>>>>>          
>>>>>
>_______________________________________________
>Esug-list mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
>______________________________________________________________________
>This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
>For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
>______________________________________________________________________
>
>
>
>  
>

> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
>>
>>> http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>>> http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>
>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>
> -1
>
> If you want to send a statement stop using MacBooks and iPhones.
> Otherwise I just don't take you serious.
>
> Cheers
> Philippe
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

> Message du 23/04/10 12:15
> De : "Niall Ross"
> A : "ESUG Mailing list"
> Copie à :
> Objet : Re: [Esug-list] May be the time to start some buzz around our frustration with Apple.
>
>
> Dear Stephane et al,
> I think James is recommending argument that is not weak but
> nevertheless avoids causing any needless offence, concentraing on making
> plain the reasons for concern and the hope that the problem can be
> solved rather than confronted. I think John McIntosh' style in what he
> has made public is a good example, and stresses a useful public issue.
>
> Practically speaking, I think this only means is that if you prepare a
> public statement over the ESUG name, you may benefit from
>
> - rereading it more than once, spaced out over a day or more
>
> - getting someone else to read it from the point of view of how it will
> read to Apple, considering carefully their review comments
>
> before issuing. I have benefitted from this approach in some difficult
> communications - and occasionally regretted it when I did not follow
> this approach.
>
> There may well be, as James remarks, only a snowball's chance of it
> having any effect anyway, but the additional time costs little and may
> add a snowflake or two.
>
> John's suggestion was
>
> > people involved in the education & university domains need to write
> > actual paper based letters on their institution's letter head and
> mail them
> > to the Apple education reps for their countries
>
> IIUC your reply to that email, you feel that will be difficult to make
> happen; you know best those institutions you are in contact with. Such
> a letter could be sent just by ESUG, in hopes that others would arrive
> sometime - as well as posted on the web.
>
> I think John is right that the effort of a hand-signed letter with a
> logo adds another snowflake or two.
>
> Just my 0.02p.
>
> Yours faithfully
> Niall Ross
>
> Janko Mivšek wrote:
>
> >Guys, I also don't understand that language, please use English
> >"Vulgata" on international forums :)
> >
> >Janko
> >
> >On 22. 04. 2010 21:34, James Robertson wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I'm not saying "do nothing" - I'm saying "consider what might have a snowball's chance in hell of working"
> >>
> >>
> >>On Apr 22, 2010, at 3:20 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Guys
> >>>
> >>>You are showing that ESUG should not do anything and this is perfect! I have something else to do with my

> >>>It is too easy to talk and less to do. So I will be watching you in action.
> >>>
> >>>And on my web site I will write what I think!
> >>>Apple is damaging my language and I do not like that.
> >>>
> >>>Stef
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>On Apr 22, 2010, at 6:14 PM, James Robertson wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>+1
> >>>>
> >>>>Ponder how you react to angry political statements from (insert political standing you dislike here).
> >>>>
> >>>>Does that make you more likely to change your mind, or more likely to tune the offending opinion out?
> >>>>
> >>>>On Apr 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, Rob Vens wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>It seems that Apple's current stance is indeed very bad for Smalltalk (as for any other vm based language,

> >>>>>web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
> >>>>>"apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
> >>>>>>http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Stef (I will do it on my web page).
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >_______________________________________________
> >Esug-list mailing list
> >[hidden email]
> >http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
> >
> >______________________________________________________________________
> >This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> >For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
> >______________________________________________________________________
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
> This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System.
> For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email 
> ______________________________________________________________________
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
>

> Hello all,
>
> A positive suggestion:
>
> Tablets are coming. Esug could set up a formal award for the best
> Smalltalk application on a tablet, and invit company representatives
> to the evaluation? (including Apple, of course).
>
>     http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-technologie-internet/2010-04-19/a-chacun-sa-tablette-les-concurrents-de-l-ipad/1387/2/1551/2/#newdiapo
>
>     http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2010/04/linux_based_ipa.html
>
>
> Bernard
>
>
> Le 23/04/2010 13:03, stephane ducasse a écrit :
>> Exactly.
>> I'm really thinking about that and I do not have iphone!
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>
>>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic
>>> languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>>>
>>>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably
>>>> individually do that with a nice explanation
>>>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad
>>>> applications - boycott apple"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>>>>> http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>>>>
>>>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>>>
>>> -1
>>>
>>> If you want to send a statement stop using MacBooks and iPhones.
>>> Otherwise I just don't take you serious.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Philippe
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

> Hello all,
>
> A positive suggestion:
>
> Tablets are coming. Esug could set up a formal award for the best
> Smalltalk application on a tablet, and invit company representatives
> to the evaluation? (including Apple, of course).
>
> http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-technologie-internet/2010-04-19/a-chacun-sa-tablette-les-concurrents-de-l-ipad/1387/2/1551/2/#newdiapo
> http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2010/04/linux_based_ipa.html
>
> Bernard
>
>
> Le 23/04/2010 13:03, stephane ducasse a écrit :
>> Exactly.
>> I'm really thinking about that and I do not have iphone!
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>  
>>
>>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic languages put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>>>    
>>>
>>>> web page. Apple will get a bad press. So we should probably individually do that with a nice explanation
>>>> "apple has forbidden to use our preferred languages to develop ipad applications - boycott apple"
>>>>
>>>>      
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>>>>> http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/isuck.png
>>>>>
>>>>>        
>>>>>
>>>> And esug can issue a more politically correct statement.
>>>>      
>>>>
>>> -1
>>>
>>> If you want to send a statement stop using MacBooks and iPhones.
>>> Otherwise I just don't take you serious.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Philippe
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>>
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>>
>>>    
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>>
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

> Hello all,
>
> A positive suggestion:
>
> Tablets are coming. Esug could set up a formal award for the best
> Smalltalk application on a tablet, and invit company representatives
> to the evaluation? (including Apple, of course).
>
> http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-technologie-internet/2010-04-19/a-chacun-sa-tablette-les-concurrents-de-l-ipad/1387/2/1551/2/#newdiapo
>
> http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2010/04/linux_based_ipa.html