More feel observations

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
> Sent: 05 December 2007 2:11 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [UI] More feel observations
>
>
> Gary,
>
> I did some more "real" programming today (working on a port of my
> home-grown file backup system), and am starting to find that one of my
> larger complaints (which I consider to be a sign of progress) is the
> apparent lack of support for virtual keys - the home and end in
> particular - in the unix VM.  My searching so far has not turned up
> anything specifically useful, so I will probably submit a question to
> Squeak-dev soon.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
> Sent: 05 December 2007 6:05 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [UI] More feel observations
>
>
> Gary,
>
> My v-key complaints are mostly limited to the numeric keypad, but I
> _think_ it is a little broader than that.  Indeed, the Windows VM does a
> better job, even getting stuff like control-shift-arrow to work
> properly, at least as far as I use them.  Just so I do not sound like a
> walking shortcut table, some of the weird sequences get exercised in
> proportion to the editing task.  I re-learn them in a hurry, when
> appropriate.  Home and end are staples.
>
> Vistary: I have been doing most of my Squeak hacking on a 1.8 GHz P4 w/
> 512MB, or so it claims.  It is an older machine, and is becoming my bit
> bucket, which Gnome finds a little taxing.  A preference for
> translucency might be nice.  The truth is, even when the hardware is up
> to it, I find the translucency a little distracting, especially on
> walkbacks.
>
>
> > (PluggableListMorph used to release
> > the keyboard focus regardless!).
>
> Thanks for fixing that, and more.  I will take another look at the
> preferences.  Maybe I have too much of a good thing in use??
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
> University of Florida
> Department of Anesthesiology
> PO Box 100254
> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
>
> Email: [hidden email]
> Tel: (352) 846-1285
> FAX: (352) 392-7029
>
>
> >>> [hidden email] 12/5/2007 6:09:51 AM >>>
> Thanks for feedback, I'll make some comments...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill
> Schwab
> > Sent: 05 December 2007 2:11 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [UI] More feel observations
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > I did some more "real" programming today (working on a port of my
> > home-grown file backup system), and am starting to find that one of
> my
> > larger complaints (which I consider to be a sign of progress) is the
> > apparent lack of support for virtual keys - the home and end in
> > particular - in the unix VM.  My searching so far has not turned up
> > anything specifically useful, so I will probably submit a question
> to
> > Squeak-dev soon.
>
> Yes, virtual keys... my main gripe is lack of support for function
> keys.
> As for home/end what's the problem with those? Or do you mean just on
> the
> numeric keypad? (only just noticed now you mention it... ok in Windows
> though :-) ).
>
> >
> > Vistary, at least on my hardware, is slow enough that I can easily
> type
> > faster than it can keep up.  Soft squeak is much harder to outrun on
> the
> > same hardware.  Note that I still cannot fully clobber it due to the
> > virtual key hassles.  Part of my input speed comes from
> > home/tab/past/space/etc/end, sometimes with shift depressed to make
> > selections. Some of this stuff is so engrained I don't even realize I
> do
> > it until it doesn't work.
>
> Been a while since I noticed any keyboard lag from Squeak...
> SoftSqueak is certainly the most responsive theme, more than
> StandardSqueak.
> Vistary, due to translucency, is only expected to work well on modern
> hardware (is fine on my 1.73 GHz Centrino laptop). What's your
> hardware?
>
> >
> > One thing that is in our general area is mouse interaction.  It will
> be
> > difficult to catch this in the act, but there is pretty clearly
> > something to it.  Have some code in plain sight; now try to
> drag-select
> > it, quickly.  I get unpredictable results; sometimes it selects what
> I
> > want, usually it does not.  When I have had similar problems in
> other
> > systems, it suggests that the code is picking up current mouse
> > coordinates when it should be using event coordinates.
>
> Not noticed any problems like this... of course, a slower system might
> highlight such issues.
>
> > Re #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus, it appears to be selectively
> necessary.
> > AFAICT, with other changes you have made, it is somewhat redundant.
> The
> > message name browser is horribly broken without it.  A few times, I
> have
> > found that when adding methods, I get into a situation where the
> input
> > focus is undefined, or not where I want it anyway, making it
> necessary
> > to click in the code pane of the system browser.  The weird thing is
> > that in that situation, the cursor needs to be in the code pane for
> it
> > to get focus.  I have #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus set to true.
>
> Best to set #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus to false when
> #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus is enabled (see
> PluggableTextMorph>>mouseLeave:). I'll probably rework that method
> since it
> is now the only sender of #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus
> (PluggableListMorph
> used to release the keyboard focus regardless!). Or, possibly, make
> changes
> to properly honour the #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus pref in the usual
> morphs
> (lists, text etc.).
>
> >
> > Sorry for the incomplete observations and guesswork, but it is
> hopefully
> > better to write down what I can remember.
> >
> > Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui

> to it, I find the translucency a little distracting, especially on
> walkbacks.
>
>
> > (PluggableListMorph used to release
> > the keyboard focus regardless!).
>
> Thanks for fixing that, and more.  I will take another look at the
> preferences.  Maybe I have too much of a good thing in use??
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
> University of Florida
> Department of Anesthesiology
> PO Box 100254
> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
>
> Email: [hidden email]
> Tel: (352) 846-1285
> FAX: (352) 392-7029
>
>
> >>> [hidden email] 12/5/2007 6:09:51 AM >>>
> Thanks for feedback, I'll make some comments...
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill
> Schwab
> > Sent: 05 December 2007 2:11 AM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: [UI] More feel observations
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > I did some more "real" programming today (working on a port of my
> > home-grown file backup system), and am starting to find that one

> it
> > to get focus.  I have #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus set to true.
>
> Best to set #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus to false when
> #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus is enabled (see
> PluggableTextMorph>>mouseLeave:). I'll probably rework that method
> since it
> is now the only sender of #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus
> (PluggableListMorph
> used to release the keyboard focus regardless!). Or, possibly, make
> changes
> to properly honour the #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus pref in the usual
> morphs
> (lists, text etc.).
>
> >
> > Sorry for the incomplete observations and guesswork, but it is
> hopefully
> > better to write down what I can remember.
> >
> > Bill
>
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui 
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill Schwab
> Sent: 05 December 2007 8:00 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: RE: [UI] More feel observations
>
>
> Gary,
>
> That would be great, though please leave out the activation, Windows
> Genuine Annoyance(TM), black screen of death, slow copies, etc. ;)  It
> certainly is not a high priority, but would be appreciated.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
> Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
> University of Florida
> Department of Anesthesiology
> PO Box 100254
> Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
>
> Email: [hidden email]
> Tel: (352) 846-1285
> FAX: (352) 392-7029
>
>
> >>> [hidden email] 12/5/2007 1:24:18 PM >>>
> I could do a "VistaryBasic" subclass, just like ms, lol!
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill
> Schwab
> > Sent: 05 December 2007 6:05 PM
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: RE: [UI] More feel observations
> >
> >
> > Gary,
> >
> > My v-key complaints are mostly limited to the numeric keypad, but I
> > _think_ it is a little broader than that.  Indeed, the Windows VM
> does a
> > better job, even getting stuff like control-shift-arrow to work
> > properly, at least as far as I use them.  Just so I do not sound like
> a
> > walking shortcut table, some of the weird sequences get exercised in
> > proportion to the editing task.  I re-learn them in a hurry, when
> > appropriate.  Home and end are staples.
> >
> > Vistary: I have been doing most of my Squeak hacking on a 1.8 GHz P4
> w/
> > 512MB, or so it claims.  It is an older machine, and is becoming my
> bit
> > bucket, which Gnome finds a little taxing.  A preference for
> > translucency might be nice.  The truth is, even when the hardware is
> up
> > to it, I find the translucency a little distracting, especially on
> > walkbacks.
> >
> >
> > > (PluggableListMorph used to release
> > > the keyboard focus regardless!).
> >
> > Thanks for fixing that, and more.  I will take another look at the
> > preferences.  Maybe I have too much of a good thing in use??
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wilhelm K. Schwab, Ph.D.
> > University of Florida
> > Department of Anesthesiology
> > PO Box 100254
> > Gainesville, FL 32610-0254
> >
> > Email: [hidden email]
> > Tel: (352) 846-1285
> > FAX: (352) 392-7029
> >
> >
> > >>> [hidden email] 12/5/2007 6:09:51 AM >>>
> > Thanks for feedback, I'll make some comments...
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Bill
> > Schwab
> > > Sent: 05 December 2007 2:11 AM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: [UI] More feel observations
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary,
> > >
> > > I did some more "real" programming today (working on a port of my
> > > home-grown file backup system), and am starting to find that one
> of
> > my
> > > larger complaints (which I consider to be a sign of progress) is
> the
> > > apparent lack of support for virtual keys - the home and end in
> > > particular - in the unix VM.  My searching so far has not turned
> up
> > > anything specifically useful, so I will probably submit a question
> > to
> > > Squeak-dev soon.
> >
> > Yes, virtual keys... my main gripe is lack of support for function
> > keys.
> > As for home/end what's the problem with those? Or do you mean just
> on
> > the
> > numeric keypad? (only just noticed now you mention it... ok in
> Windows
> > though :-) ).
> >
> > >
> > > Vistary, at least on my hardware, is slow enough that I can easily
> > type
> > > faster than it can keep up.  Soft squeak is much harder to outrun
> on
> > the
> > > same hardware.  Note that I still cannot fully clobber it due to
> the
> > > virtual key hassles.  Part of my input speed comes from
> > > home/tab/past/space/etc/end, sometimes with shift depressed to
> make
> > > selections. Some of this stuff is so engrained I don't even realize
> I
> > do
> > > it until it doesn't work.
> >
> > Been a while since I noticed any keyboard lag from Squeak...
> > SoftSqueak is certainly the most responsive theme, more than
> > StandardSqueak.
> > Vistary, due to translucency, is only expected to work well on
> modern
> > hardware (is fine on my 1.73 GHz Centrino laptop). What's your
> > hardware?
> >
> > >
> > > One thing that is in our general area is mouse interaction.  It
> will
> > be
> > > difficult to catch this in the act, but there is pretty clearly
> > > something to it.  Have some code in plain sight; now try to
> > drag-select
> > > it, quickly.  I get unpredictable results; sometimes it selects
> what
> > I
> > > want, usually it does not.  When I have had similar problems in
> > other
> > > systems, it suggests that the code is picking up current mouse
> > > coordinates when it should be using event coordinates.
> >
> > Not noticed any problems like this... of course, a slower system
> might
> > highlight such issues.
> >
> > > Re #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus, it appears to be selectively
> > necessary.
> > > AFAICT, with other changes you have made, it is somewhat redundant.
>
> > The
> > > message name browser is horribly broken without it.  A few times,
> I
> > have
> > > found that when adding methods, I get into a situation where the
> > input
> > > focus is undefined, or not where I want it anyway, making it
> > necessary
> > > to click in the code pane of the system browser.  The weird thing
> is
> > > that in that situation, the cursor needs to be in the code pane
> for
> > it
> > > to get focus.  I have #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus set to true.
> >
> > Best to set #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus to false when
> > #mouseClickForKeyboardFocus is enabled (see
> > PluggableTextMorph>>mouseLeave:). I'll probably rework that method
> > since it
> > is now the only sender of #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus
> > (PluggableListMorph
> > used to release the keyboard focus regardless!). Or, possibly, make
> > changes
> > to properly honour the #mouseOverForKeyboardFocus pref in the usual
> > morphs
> > (lists, text etc.).
> >
> > >
> > > Sorry for the incomplete observations and guesswork, but it is
> > hopefully
> > > better to write down what I can remember.
> > >
> > > Bill
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > UI mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui 
> > _______________________________________________
> > UI mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui 
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui
> _______________________________________________
> UI mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ui