Hi guys
As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development. "3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)." I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone. We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages. Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad order). _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
On 04/14/10 15:29, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone. > We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages. +1 > > Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. +1 -Martin _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Morning all, likely this note was a result of Scratch.app being dropped from the store this morning for clause 3.3.2.
http://wikiserver.com/Scratch.html If you are a member of Apple’s developer program then you can read our letter in the dev forums: https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425 Apple was quite polite about the whole matter and Apple isn't interested in people venting, rather in people having constructive conversation, I can't say from here how that would happen. In summary the last paragraph of my note reads: "Having to worry about languages, and algorithm choices when building an app just makes that chore more difficult, I'd rather not see such restrictions in our contracts, ensuring app stability, look/feel, behaviour, and application usefulness & classification is I think sufficient control to ensure a person's software experience on the iPhone/iPad is fruitful. Someday I'd like to push the submit button on a Scratch editor, eToys editor or Sophie for the iPad, but how do I get there? Is Javascript the only solution?" On 2010-04-14, at 3:29 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Hi guys > > As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development. -- =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com =========================================================================== _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list smime.p7s (3K) Download Attachment |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On 15 April 2010 01:29, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi guys > > As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development. > > "3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)." > > I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone. > We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages. > > Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. > future is to prevent a progress. > Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad order). _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote: > Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ? -- Damien Cassou http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them popular by not having them." James Iry _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
This is not the solution because I still buy macs...
Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple. This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press and bad image for them and bad image is important. Stef On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. > > Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ? > > -- > Damien Cassou > http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st > > "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them > popular by not having them." James Iry > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. Later on Thursday
I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are thinking and let you all know. At this point being irritated at them isn't helpful. On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > This is not the solution because I still buy macs... > Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple. > This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off > So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press > and bad image for them and bad image is important. > > Stef > > On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote: > >> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse >> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. >> >> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ? >> >> -- >> Damien Cassou >> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st >> >> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them >> popular by not having them." James Iry >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list =========================================================================== John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882 Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com =========================================================================== _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list smime.p7s (3K) Download Attachment |
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Every dog has its day and Apple seems to be bringing out one successful product after another. I switched to Apple 5 or 6 years ago and I have been reasonably happy with my switch. Apple has the advantage to have full control over the hardware and tries to have maximum control over the software that runs on it in an attempt to maintain the overall user experience. Apple's resurgence in my view was driven a lot by Windows software developers (well, Java, Ruby, Python, PHP and yes Smalltalk too) switching to Apple. Cracks have already started to appear a while ago. Certain business decisions and Apple's arrogance - which reminds me a bit of Microsoft arrogance in the 90's - are frustrating even their strongest evangelists. People who happily switched to Apple are jailbreaking their iPhones, can't develop Flash apps and now, have even more restrictions put upon them. As long as Apple's revenue is good (which is probably better then ever) they won't care one iota what anyone else thinks, so venting your frustration is probably not going to have much effect. I am not sure if Google is any better - at least they claim not to be evil :) - but I am sure my next phone won't be an iPhone anymore and I am also looking forward to a Chrome OS netbook :)
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In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Le 15/04/2010 00:29, Stéphane Ducasse a écrit :
> Hi guys > > As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development. > > "3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)." > > I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone. > We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages. > > Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. > > Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad order). I recently purchase an Asus laptop. Core i5, nvidia Optimus. 4Go 16". I did'nt have a laptop since a long time. This one is available for less than 900 euros on the internet and is similar to recent laptop macbook pro available at 2000 euros. It took 1 hr to install the last Ubuntu release (Lucid) with hd disk partition and multiboot. It is quite stable and with the exception of nvidia driver for Optimus graphics it is enough for me. I hope to get this support in medium term from Nvidia, if they can support Apple, they can support Linux. Well, the reason why I am answering is that I am currently working on process network simulator synthesis (esug'09) for SIMD accelerator, so CUDA, OpenCL and other stuffs. Simple examples worked *brightly* in comparison with CSP simulation. Not a surprise because process switching is replaced by barriers and data moves. I am doing this from VW77 and Linux on i7/GE9800 lab PC. I had tried to use Apple dev software and found it was very heavy. I also had difficulties in adapting to their Objective-C. In comparison working with Nvidia CUDA looked quite simple. Probably it could be a good project to embed CUDA code production in Smalltalk. Can we ignore the availability of processor array as large as 500 cores ? To return to your topic, Apple can have some reasons to fix new bounds for software developments. Their web site show an involvement in technologies with OpenCL, as a general approach for accelerators and multi cores. Another point is Grand Central Dispatch, which proposes an operating system approach for scheduling tasks at a level under the thread levels. They claim to have the more innovative OS 'in the world'. It can be. I did'nt got enough time to look at GCD closely, but I recognize topics that have been central in architecture, compiler, parallelism research since year 2K. As you quote, no interpretive language are 'accepted' by Apple. A possible reason is that GCD set up interpretation at the task level. Task is a Smalltalk Block. In the case of heavy computations (mmedia, scientific, simulation ..), Smalltalk should be able to replace blocks by binary blocks (typing and code synthesis). So, I dont know really what is behind Apple statements on Iphone. Probably the communauty should look more closely, probably there is room for building VM at a different level targeting current hardwares, and not this microprocessor thing of the past. A place for an ANR project, another challenge beside Apple obscurantism. Probably the question would be formulated as development productivity for future massive parallel platforms. Best regards, Bernard Université de Brest http://wsn.univ-brest.fr/pottier > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > > _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hi Stéphane,
On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > This is not the solution because I still buy macs... > Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple. > This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off > So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press > and bad image for them and bad image is important. note that I do own an iPhone, and I won't throw it away. :-) Nevertheless I support your idea. This is really going too far. Some freedom of choice deserves to be there. (Or let's build a Smalltalk-to-ObjC translator.) Best, Michael _______________________________________________ Esug-list mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list |
In reply to this post by Bernard Pottier-2
Hi All
Stephane - while I can appreciate your frustration and annoyance at this apparently high handed approach, as Bernard points out, there may be good reasons and non-evil intent behind the move from Apple. I am a happy convert to Apple and value the user experience that they manage to achieve. I am also a major long time fan and proponent of Smalltalk and Squeak. I think creating negative press is not a constructive way to go. It can be a last resort after exhausting other channels. I think we should coordinate a petition response with as many members are possible which rationally and calmly sets out the reasons why we think such a prohibition is a bad idea. Also, we can highlight what advantages Smalltalk and variants offer the platforms.. and what innovative applications would be denied to the user community if such a prohibition is continued. This could be forwarded to appropriate management at Apple and pursued with a view to getting the policy changed, or to understanding what might need to be done technically or in application rules/architecture to comply with the spirit/requirements. Only if Apple will not engage or will not listen to reason should a group like ESUG then engage in negative press tactics. In my humble opinion, anyway. Regards to all Graham Bernard Pottier wrote: > Le 15/04/2010 00:29, Stéphane Ducasse a écrit : >> Hi guys >> >> As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development. >> >> "3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner >> prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. >> Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or >> JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code >> written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link >> against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to >> Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility >> layer or tool are prohibited)." >> >> I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone. >> We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages. >> >> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple. >> >> Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad >> order). > Hi Stephane. > > I recently purchase an Asus laptop. Core i5, nvidia Optimus. 4Go 16". > I did'nt have a laptop since a long time. This one is available for less > than 900 euros on the internet and is similar to recent laptop macbook > pro > available at 2000 euros. > > It took 1 hr to install the last Ubuntu release (Lucid) with hd disk > partition > and multiboot. It is quite stable and with the exception of nvidia > driver for Optimus graphics > it is enough for me. I hope to get this support in medium term from > Nvidia, > if they can support Apple, they can support Linux. > > Well, the reason why I am answering is that I am currently working on > process network simulator synthesis (esug'09) for SIMD accelerator, so > CUDA, OpenCL > and other stuffs. Simple examples worked *brightly* in comparison with > CSP simulation. Not a surprise because process switching is replaced > by barriers and data moves. > > I am doing this from VW77 and Linux on i7/GE9800 lab PC. I had tried > to use Apple dev software and found it was very heavy. I also had > difficulties in adapting to their Objective-C. In comparison working with > Nvidia CUDA looked quite simple. Probably it could be a good project > to embed > CUDA code production in Smalltalk. Can we ignore the availability of > processor array as large as 500 cores ? > > To return to your topic, Apple can have some reasons to fix new bounds > for software developments. Their web site show an involvement in > technologies > with OpenCL, as a general approach for accelerators and multi cores. > Another point is Grand Central Dispatch, which proposes an operating > system > approach for scheduling tasks at a level under the thread levels. They > claim > to have the more innovative OS 'in the world'. It can be. > > I did'nt got enough time to look at GCD closely, but I recognize > topics that > have been central in architecture, compiler, parallelism research > since year 2K. > As you quote, no interpretive language are 'accepted' by Apple. A > possible reason is > that GCD set up interpretation at the task level. > > Task is a Smalltalk Block. In the case of heavy computations (mmedia, > scientific, > simulation ..), Smalltalk should be able to replace blocks by binary > blocks (typing > and code synthesis). > > So, I dont know really what is behind Apple statements on Iphone. > Probably the communauty > should look more closely, probably there is room for building VM at a > different level > targeting current hardwares, and not this microprocessor thing of the > past. > > A place for an ANR project, another challenge beside Apple obscurantism. > Probably the question would be formulated as development productivity for > future massive parallel platforms. > > Best regards, > Bernard > > Université de Brest > http://wsn.univ-brest.fr/pottier > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ >> Esug-list mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list > > _______________________________________________ > Esug-list mailing list > [hidden email] > Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
RE: Need your advice on the Apple behavior
AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
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