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Stéphane Ducasse

Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Hi guys

As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development.

"3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)."

I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone.
We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages.

Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.

Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad order). _______________________________________________
Esug-list mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

Martin McClure

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

On 04/14/10 15:29, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone.
> We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages.

+1

>
> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.

+1

-Martin
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johnmci

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Morning all, likely this note was a result of Scratch.app being dropped from the store this morning for clause 3.3.2.

http://wikiserver.com/Scratch.html

If you are a member of Apple’s developer program then you can read our letter in the dev forums: https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425 Apple was quite polite about the whole matter and Apple isn't interested in people venting, rather in people having constructive conversation, I can't say from here how that would happen.

In summary the last paragraph of my note reads:

"Having to worry about languages, and algorithm choices when building an app just makes that chore more difficult, I'd rather not see such restrictions in our contracts, ensuring app stability, look/feel, behaviour, and application usefulness & classification is I think sufficient control to ensure a person's software experience on the iPhone/iPad is fruitful. Someday I'd like to push the submit button on a Scratch editor, eToys editor or Sophie for the iPad, but how do I get there? Is Javascript the only solution?"

On 2010-04-14, at 3:29 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development.

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================

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Igor Stasenko

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

On 15 April 2010 01:29, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi guys
>
> As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development.
>
> "3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited)."
>
> I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone.
> We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages.
>
> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.
>

I think that Apple armed a new paradigm: Best way to predict the
future is to prevent a progress.

> Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad order). _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>

--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
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Damien Cassou

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.

Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ?

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
popular by not having them." James Iry
_______________________________________________
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Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

This is not the solution because I still buy macs...
Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple.
This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off
So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press
and bad image for them and bad image is important.

Stef

On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:

> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.
>
> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ?
>
> --
> Damien Cassou
> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>
> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
> popular by not having them." James Iry
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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johnmci

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. Later on Thursday
I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are thinking and let you all know.
At this point being irritated at them isn't helpful.

On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> This is not the solution because I still buy macs...
> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple.
> This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off
> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press
> and bad image for them and bad image is important.
>
> Stef
>
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.
>>
>> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ?
>>
>> --
>> Damien Cassou
>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>>
>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
>> popular by not having them." James Iry
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================

_______________________________________________
Esug-list mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

smime.p7s (3K) Download Attachment

Geert Claes

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Administrator

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Every dog has its day and Apple seems to be bringing out one successful product after another. I switched to Apple 5 or 6 years ago and I have been reasonably happy with my switch. Apple has the advantage to have full control over the hardware and tries to have maximum control over the software that runs on it in an attempt to maintain the overall user experience. Apple's resurgence in my view was driven a lot by Windows software developers (well, Java, Ruby, Python, PHP and yes Smalltalk too) switching to Apple. Cracks have already started to appear a while ago. Certain business decisions and Apple's arrogance - which reminds me a bit of Microsoft arrogance in the 90's - are frustrating even their strongest evangelists. People who happily switched to Apple are jailbreaking their iPhones, can't develop Flash apps and now, have even more restrictions put upon them. As long as Apple's revenue is good (which is probably better then ever) they won't care one iota what anyone else thinks, so venting your frustration is probably not going to have much effect. I am not sure if Google is any better - at least they claim not to be evil :) - but I am sure my next phone won't be an iPhone anymore and I am also looking forward to a Chrome OS netbook :)

Bernard Pottier-2

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Le 15/04/2010 00:29, Stéphane Ducasse a écrit :

Hi Stephane.

I recently purchase an Asus laptop. Core i5, nvidia Optimus. 4Go 16".
I did'nt have a laptop since a long time. This one is available for less
than 900 euros on the internet and is similar to recent laptop macbook pro
available at 2000 euros.

It took 1 hr to install the last Ubuntu release (Lucid) with hd disk
partition
and multiboot. It is quite stable and with the exception of nvidia
driver for Optimus graphics
it is enough for me. I hope to get this support in medium term from Nvidia,
if they can support Apple, they can support Linux.

Well, the reason why I am answering is that I am currently working on
process network simulator synthesis (esug'09) for SIMD accelerator, so
CUDA, OpenCL
and other stuffs. Simple examples worked *brightly* in comparison with
CSP simulation. Not a surprise because process switching is replaced
by barriers and data moves.

I am doing this from VW77 and Linux on i7/GE9800 lab PC. I had tried
to use Apple dev software and found it was very heavy. I also had
difficulties in adapting to their Objective-C. In comparison working with
Nvidia CUDA looked quite simple. Probably it could be a good project to
embed
CUDA code production in Smalltalk. Can we ignore the availability of
processor array as large as 500 cores ?

To return to your topic, Apple can have some reasons to fix new bounds
for software developments. Their web site show an involvement in
technologies
with OpenCL, as a general approach for accelerators and multi cores.
Another point is Grand Central Dispatch, which proposes an operating system
approach for scheduling tasks at a level under the thread levels. They claim
to have the more innovative OS 'in the world'. It can be.

I did'nt got enough time to look at GCD closely, but I recognize topics that
have been central in architecture, compiler, parallelism research since
year 2K.
As you quote, no interpretive language are 'accepted' by Apple. A
possible reason is
that GCD set up interpretation at the task level.

Task is a Smalltalk Block. In the case of heavy computations (mmedia,
scientific,
simulation ..), Smalltalk should be able to replace blocks by binary
blocks (typing
and code synthesis).

So, I dont know really what is behind Apple statements on Iphone.
Probably the communauty
should look more closely, probably there is room for building VM at a
different level
targeting current hardwares, and not this microprocessor thing of the past.

A place for an ANR project, another challenge beside Apple obscurantism.
Probably the question would be formulated as development productivity for
future massive parallel platforms.

Best regards,
Bernard

Université de Brest
http://wsn.univ-brest.fr/pottier

> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
>
>

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Michael Haupt-3

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Hi Stéphane,

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 8:58 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is not the solution because I still buy macs...
> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple.
> This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off
> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press
> and bad image for them and bad image is important.

note that I do own an iPhone, and I won't throw it away. :-)

Nevertheless I support your idea. This is really going too far. Some
freedom of choice deserves to be there.

(Or let's build a Smalltalk-to-ObjC translator.)

Best,

Michael
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Graham McLeod

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Bernard Pottier-2

Hi All

Stephane - while I can appreciate your frustration and annoyance at this
apparently high handed approach, as Bernard points out, there may be
good reasons and non-evil intent behind the move from Apple. I am a
happy convert to Apple and value the user experience that they manage to
achieve.
I am also a major long time fan and proponent of Smalltalk and Squeak.

I think creating negative press is not a constructive way to go. It can
be a last resort after exhausting other channels.

I think we should coordinate a petition response with as many members
are possible which rationally and calmly sets out the reasons why we
think such a prohibition is a bad idea. Also, we can highlight what
advantages Smalltalk and variants offer the platforms.. and what
innovative applications would be denied to the user community if such a
prohibition is continued.
This could be forwarded to appropriate management at Apple and pursued
with a view to getting the policy changed, or to understanding what
might need to be done technically or in application rules/architecture
to comply with the spirit/requirements.

Only if Apple will not engage or will not listen to reason should a
group like ESUG then engage in negative press tactics.
In my humble opinion, anyway.

Regards to all

Graham

Bernard Pottier wrote:

> Le 15/04/2010 00:29, Stéphane Ducasse a écrit :
>> Hi guys
>>
>> As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development.
>>
>> "3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner
>> prescribed by Apple and must not use or call any private APIs.
>> Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or
>> JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code
>> written in C, C++, and Objective-C may compile and directly link
>> against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that link to
>> Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility
>> layer or tool are prohibited)."
>>
>> I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone.
>> We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages.
>>
>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.
>>
>> Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad
>> order).
> Hi Stephane.
>
> I recently purchase an Asus laptop. Core i5, nvidia Optimus. 4Go 16".
> I did'nt have a laptop since a long time. This one is available for less
> than 900 euros on the internet and is similar to recent laptop macbook
> pro
> available at 2000 euros.
>
> It took 1 hr to install the last Ubuntu release (Lucid) with hd disk
> partition
> and multiboot. It is quite stable and with the exception of nvidia
> driver for Optimus graphics
> it is enough for me. I hope to get this support in medium term from
> Nvidia,
> if they can support Apple, they can support Linux.
>
> Well, the reason why I am answering is that I am currently working on
> process network simulator synthesis (esug'09) for SIMD accelerator, so
> CUDA, OpenCL
> and other stuffs. Simple examples worked *brightly* in comparison with
> CSP simulation. Not a surprise because process switching is replaced
> by barriers and data moves.
>
> I am doing this from VW77 and Linux on i7/GE9800 lab PC. I had tried
> to use Apple dev software and found it was very heavy. I also had
> difficulties in adapting to their Objective-C. In comparison working with
> Nvidia CUDA looked quite simple. Probably it could be a good project
> to embed
> CUDA code production in Smalltalk. Can we ignore the availability of
> processor array as large as 500 cores ?
>
> To return to your topic, Apple can have some reasons to fix new bounds
> for software developments. Their web site show an involvement in
> technologies
> with OpenCL, as a general approach for accelerators and multi cores.
> Another point is Grand Central Dispatch, which proposes an operating
> system
> approach for scheduling tasks at a level under the thread levels. They
> claim
> to have the more innovative OS 'in the world'. It can be.
>
> I did'nt got enough time to look at GCD closely, but I recognize
> topics that
> have been central in architecture, compiler, parallelism research
> since year 2K.
> As you quote, no interpretive language are 'accepted' by Apple. A
> possible reason is
> that GCD set up interpretation at the task level.
>
> Task is a Smalltalk Block. In the case of heavy computations (mmedia,
> scientific,
> simulation ..), Smalltalk should be able to replace blocks by binary
> blocks (typing
> and code synthesis).
>
> So, I dont know really what is behind Apple statements on Iphone.
> Probably the communauty
> should look more closely, probably there is room for building VM at a
> different level
> targeting current hardwares, and not this microprocessor thing of the
> past.
>
> A place for an ANR project, another challenge beside Apple obscurantism.
> Probably the question would be formulated as development productivity for
> future massive parallel platforms.
>
> Best regards,
> Bernard
>
> Université de Brest
> http://wsn.univ-brest.fr/pottier
>
>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

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Andreas Tönne

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Stéphane, All,

I was also shocked, not only because it rules out Smalltalk, but because of
the extremely shortsighted list of choices. No Ruby, no Java (nah forget it
:) or other dynamic languages allowing quick and flexible development that
matches the need for lightweight development of apps for this platform?

But then I recalled some thoughts when hearing the bitter complaints about
the iPad being also a closed platform and not the open oversized
iPhone-shaped notebook killer. I thought to myself: why do these people
insist on running any software on a device just because it could? Some seem
only to be content when they break in their phone, router, setop-box,
toaster and you name it, to run Linux on it :-)

http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/12/gruber-apple-was-right-adobe-get-over-it-vi
deo/

I do not want to rationalize Apple's decision as it sucks for us. But it is
Apple's decision what their products should do, how they do it and is very
keen on having full control of the user experience (and money for that part)
like the vendor of any media consumption device. Apple has produced a closed
platform with a limited extensibility for I think good reasons on their
side.

Attacking Apple for this does not help at all. Instead we should show Apple
that these limits hurt their platform as it makes development and progress
more expensive and thus reduces the number of creative apps. In particular,
it slows down the production of seasonal or topical applications.

Why should creativity and productivity suffer because Apple battles Adobe?

Andreas

Am 15.04.10 00:29 schrieb "Stéphane Ducasse" unter
<[hidden email]>:

> Hi guys
>
> As you may know it apple changed rules for Iphone development.
>
> "3.3.1--Applications may only use Documented APIs in the manner prescribed by
> Apple and must not use or call any private APIs. Applications must be
> originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the
> iPhone OS WebKit engine, and only code written in C, C++, and Objective-C may
> compile and directly link against the Documented APIs (e.g., Applications that
> link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility
> layer or tool are prohibited)."
>
> I think that we should launch a bit buzz around the boycott of iPhone.
> We should defend the freedom of programmers of other languages.
>
> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.
>
> Stef (I'm lucky I do not have an Iphone and I will cancel our ipad order).
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

--
Andreas Tönne
Lead Consultant
Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG
Tel.: +49 6196 9003 100
Mobile: +49 172 6159272
Fax: +49 6196 9003 270

Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan
oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653)
Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB
5069)

_______________________________________________
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Nowak, Helge

AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Dear Andreas and all,

I always hear "User Experience". Forget it. It is all about money. Nothing else than money. The best way to earn big is to create a monopoly. That's what Apple is after. And, as I know our anti-trust "authorities", nothing will be done. Or, if something will be done it will be after the fact (Microsoft vs. Netscape browser decision anyone?).

Conclusion: the only thing that works is getting them where it hurts: by the money.

Chinese proverb: if one man dreams, it is a dream. If millions dream, it is reality.

Good luck to us!
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Andreas Tönne
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 11:50
An: ESUG Mailing list
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Stéphane, All,

I was also shocked, not only because it rules out Smalltalk, but because of
the extremely shortsighted list of choices. No Ruby, no Java (nah forget it
:) or other dynamic languages allowing quick and flexible development that
matches the need for lightweight development of apps for this platform?

But then I recalled some thoughts when hearing the bitter complaints about
the iPad being also a closed platform and not the open oversized
iPhone-shaped notebook killer. I thought to myself: why do these people
insist on running any software on a device just because it could? Some seem
only to be content when they break in their phone, router, setop-box,
toaster and you name it, to run Linux on it :-)

http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/12/gruber-apple-was-right-adobe-get-over-it-vi
deo/

I do not want to rationalize Apple's decision as it sucks for us. But it is
Apple's decision what their products should do, how they do it and is very
keen on having full control of the user experience (and money for that part)
like the vendor of any media consumption device. Apple has produced a closed
platform with a limited extensibility for I think good reasons on their
side.

Attacking Apple for this does not help at all. Instead we should show Apple
that these limits hurt their platform as it makes development and progress
more expensive and thus reduces the number of creative apps. In particular,
it slows down the production of seasonal or topical applications.

Why should creativity and productivity suffer because Apple battles Adobe?

Andreas

Am 15.04.10 00:29 schrieb "Stéphane Ducasse" unter
<[hidden email]>:

Stéphane Ducasse

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by johnmci

ok let us know.
but may be we should stop developing software in Smalltalk and move to Javascript....

Stef

> Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. Later on Thursday
> I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are thinking and let you all know.
> At this point being irritated at them isn't helpful.
>
> On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> This is not the solution because I still buy macs...
>> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple.
>> This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off
>> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press
>> and bad image for them and bad image is important.
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.
>>>
>>> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ?
>>>
>>> --
>>> Damien Cassou
>>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>>>
>>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
>>> popular by not having them." James Iry
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Esug-list mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

_______________________________________________
Esug-list mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

Igor Stasenko

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

On 15 April 2010 15:56, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ok let us know.
> but may be we should stop developing software in Smalltalk and move to Javascript....
>
That's what they actually want :)
"All your base are belongs to us"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

> Stef
>
>
>> Hang on I've been escalated into more senior management at Apple. Later on Thursday
>> I hope to have a clearer picture of what they are thinking and let you all know.
>> At this point being irritated at them isn't helpful.
>>
>> On 2010-04-14, at 11:58 PM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>>
>>> This is not the solution because I still buy macs...
>>> Now I would like that as a community we send a strong signal and do a bad press to apple.
>>> This is more than 15 years that I use apple machine and software and I'm pissed off
>>> So if we all state this kind of statements and say it publicly over a web page we can create bad press
>>> and bad image for them and bad image is important.
>>>
>>> Stef
>>>
>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 6:06 AM, Damien Cassou wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 12:29 AM, Stéphane Ducasse
>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>> Tell me what you think but I'm sick of Apple.
>>>>
>>>> Do you want to know how to install Linux on your macbook pro ?
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Damien Cassou
>>>> http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st
>>>>
>>>> "Lambdas are relegated to relative obscurity until Java makes them
>>>> popular by not having them." James Iry
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Esug-list mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
>>
>> --
>> ===========================================================================
>> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Twitter: squeaker68882
>> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
>> ===========================================================================
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marten

Re: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Hey,

really surprising, right ? But the Smalltalkers are not the only ones
with this problems - there are larger and more important communities
(like the ones from Adobe) or the Java community and other OpenSource
ones (like FreePascal ones).

But the virtual machine (by itself) can be seen as a C program and
therefore should be allowed to be offered. Images and all that stuff
may be downloaded via internet ?! Therefore you can still offer this
code, but are out of business, when hoping to get access to Apple
store or stuff like this.

But I assume, that Helge is right: it's all about money and if you do
not like the decision: do not buy Apple hardware. Very simple decision.

What are the other effects ? Well, the developers are more tightly
bound to apple (no compatibility layers allowed) and that means, that
they offer their program only for iPhone and not for other operating
systems (like Android) unless they are strong enough to drive
several platforms ... and this might lead to more unique programs only
available on Apples platforms. The compilers will be sold by Apple - and
then they even get more independence in terms of hardware (perhaps other
CPUs).

Freedom for programmers of other languages ? Well as a Smalltalker
I never had this freedom for years now - others have forced me to
use C#, Java or C++. Therefore what has really changed ? By the way:
Objective-C is not that bad I assume.

Marten Feldtmann

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Nowak, Helge

AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Hi Marten,

you are right with your observation: the virtual machine of the Smalltalks I know is implemented in C or C++ (and for VSE in Assembler). So we could see and advertize Smalltalk as a program (vm) that digests some documents (image) just like e. g. a spread sheet. Already my former boss at ObjectShare said: Smalltalk is just C ;-)

Maybe that's the way to go.

Cheers
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Marten Feldtmann
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 16:43
An: ESUG Mailing list
Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Hey,

really surprising, right ? But the Smalltalkers are not the only ones
with this problems - there are larger and more important communities
(like the ones from Adobe) or the Java community and other OpenSource
ones (like FreePascal ones).

But the virtual machine (by itself) can be seen as a C program and
therefore should be allowed to be offered. Images and all that stuff
may be downloaded via internet ?! Therefore you can still offer this
code, but are out of business, when hoping to get access to Apple
store or stuff like this.

But I assume, that Helge is right: it's all about money and if you do
not like the decision: do not buy Apple hardware. Very simple decision.

What are the other effects ? Well, the developers are more tightly
bound to apple (no compatibility layers allowed) and that means, that
they offer their program only for iPhone and not for other operating
systems (like Android) unless they are strong enough to drive
several platforms ... and this might lead to more unique programs only
available on Apples platforms. The compilers will be sold by Apple - and
then they even get more independence in terms of hardware (perhaps other
CPUs).

Freedom for programmers of other languages ? Well as a Smalltalker
I never had this freedom for years now - others have forced me to
use C#, Java or C++. Therefore what has really changed ? By the way:
Objective-C is not that bad I assume.

Marten Feldtmann

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[hidden email]
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Steven Kelly

RE: Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

Actually a rather nice incentive to finally build a real Smalltalk Runtime Environment:

1) the VM
2) minimal base image
3) base parcels

The base parcels would be supplied by Cincom, prereq'd by client apps, and automatically fetched and installed by the base image when installing the first client app that prereqs them.

Client apps would consist of one or more parcels, zipped up together with metadata and signed.

Ah well, I can dream...
Steve

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:esug-list-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
> Sent: 15. huhtikuuta 2010 17:49
> To: ESUG Mailing list
> Subject: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
>
> Hi Marten,
>
> you are right with your observation: the virtual machine of the
> Smalltalks I know is implemented in C or C++ (and for VSE in Assembler).
> So we could see and advertize Smalltalk as a program (vm) that digests
> some documents (image) just like e. g. a spread sheet. Already my
> former boss at ObjectShare said: Smalltalk is just C ;-)
>
> Maybe that's the way to go.
>
> Cheers
> Helge
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: [hidden email] [mailto:esug-list-
> [hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Marten Feldtmann
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 16:43
> An: ESUG Mailing list
> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
>
> Hey,
>
> really surprising, right ? But the Smalltalkers are not the only ones
> with this problems - there are larger and more important communities
> (like the ones from Adobe) or the Java community and other OpenSource
> ones (like FreePascal ones).
>
> But the virtual machine (by itself) can be seen as a C program and
> therefore should be allowed to be offered. Images and all that stuff
> may be downloaded via internet ?! Therefore you can still offer this
> code, but are out of business, when hoping to get access to Apple
> store or stuff like this.
>
> But I assume, that Helge is right: it's all about money and if you do
> not like the decision: do not buy Apple hardware. Very simple decision.
>
> What are the other effects ? Well, the developers are more tightly
> bound to apple (no compatibility layers allowed) and that means, that
> they offer their program only for iPhone and not for other operating
> systems (like Android) unless they are strong enough to drive
> several platforms ... and this might lead to more unique programs only
> available on Apples platforms. The compilers will be sold by Apple -
> and
> then they even get more independence in terms of hardware (perhaps
> other
> CPUs).
>
> Freedom for programmers of other languages ? Well as a Smalltalker
> I never had this freedom for years now - others have forced me to
> use C#, Java or C++. Therefore what has really changed ? By the way:
> Objective-C is not that bad I assume.
>
> Marten Feldtmann
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

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Nowak, Helge

AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Andreas just pointed me to the fact that my post was over-hasty: Apple ruled out interpreted and self modifying systems per se :-(

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Steven Kelly
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 17:00
An: ESUG Mailing list
Betreff: RE: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior

Actually a rather nice incentive to finally build a real Smalltalk Runtime Environment:

1) the VM
2) minimal base image
3) base parcels

The base parcels would be supplied by Cincom, prereq'd by client apps, and automatically fetched and installed by the base image when installing the first client app that prereqs them.

Client apps would consist of one or more parcels, zipped up together with metadata and signed.

Ah well, I can dream...
Steve

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jtuchel

Re: AW: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior

In reply to this post by Nowak, Helge

Helge,

maybe we should just see what John McIntosh will learn from Apple.
The VM is C, but especially in the case of Squeak, it's not "originally written"
in C. So in the end it's all just a question of interpretation. And since Apple
makes the rules, they tell us how to interpret their rules ;-)
I think there already was that rule that virtual machines aren't allowed on the
iPhone, but John somehow got his baby onto the device and into the AppStore.

I guess the Smalltalk community doesn't count much in the eyes of Apple as long
as there is no substantially interesting mobile application available on any
platform. This can mean two things: they just say "no way, go play somewhere
else if you don't like Objective-C" or they say: "you're such a small harmless
gang, we don't care!".

cu

Joachim

"Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]> hat am 15. April 2010 um 16:49 geschrieben:

> Hi Marten,
>
> you are right with your observation: the virtual machine of the Smalltalks I
> know is implemented in C or C++ (and for VSE in Assembler). So we could see
> and advertize Smalltalk as a program (vm) that digests some documents (image)
> just like e. g. a spread sheet. Already my former boss at ObjectShare said:
> Smalltalk is just C ;-)
>
> Maybe that's the way to go.
>
> Cheers
> Helge
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Marten Feldtmann
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 15. April 2010 16:43
> An: ESUG Mailing list
> Betreff: Re: [Esug-list] Need your advice on the Apple behavior
>
> Hey,
>
> really surprising, right ? But the Smalltalkers are not the only ones
> with this problems - there are larger and more important communities
> (like the ones from Adobe) or the Java community and other OpenSource
> ones (like FreePascal ones).
>
> But the virtual machine (by itself) can be seen as a C program and
> therefore should be allowed to be offered. Images and all that stuff
> may be downloaded via internet ?! Therefore you can still offer this
> code, but are out of business, when hoping to get access to Apple
> store or stuff like this.
>
> But I assume, that Helge is right: it's all about money and if you do
> not like the decision: do not buy Apple hardware. Very simple decision.
>
> What are the other effects ? Well, the developers are more tightly
> bound to apple (no compatibility layers allowed) and that means, that
> they offer their program only for iPhone and not for other operating
> systems (like Android) unless they are strong enough to drive
> several platforms ... and this might lead to more unique programs only
> available on Apples platforms. The compilers will be sold by Apple - and
> then they even get more independence in terms of hardware (perhaps other
> CPUs).
>
> Freedom for programmers of other languages ? Well as a Smalltalker
> I never had this freedom for years now - others have forced me to
> use C#, Java or C++. Therefore what has really changed ? By the way:
> Objective-C is not that bad I assume.
>
> Marten Feldtmann
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list

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