New, faster RISC OS Squeak

I get a File 'System:Modules.StreamMan' not found error.

I take it from here [1] [2] that StreamMan is short for StreamManager.
And that it should be in the sharedsoundbuffer.!System folder. I
shift+double clicked and followed !Shared.350.Modules to see StreamMan
in this directory. The file appears present but still there is an error.

Chris


[1]
http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.smalltalk.squeak.vm.devel/9468
[2] http://www.raspberrypi.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=29504&p=278048

On 07-02-2013, at 8:49 AM, Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I get a File 'System:Modules.StreamMan' not found error.
>
> I take it from here [1] [2] that StreamMan is short for StreamManager. And that it should be in the sharedsoundbuffer.!System folder. I shift+double clicked and followed !Shared.350.Modules to see StreamMan in this directory. The file appears present but still there is an error.


Well that's odd. You should find the two files 'StreamMan' & "SSBuffer' with (in a TaskWindow, which I imagine you've already discovered can be obtained with a ctl-F12)
. system:modules.350
(NB the colon between system & modules is important)
If you do the shift-d-click dance down through
!boot ->Resources -> !System -> 350 -> modules they'd damn well better be there or I'll have nasty words to say to some code.
They should be listed as
StreamMan 16k module 06:27:38 01 Apr 2004
SSBuffer 15k module 06:27:50 01 Apr 2004

If you d-click on each of them and then in that TaskWindow
help sharedsou.
you should get some blather about help for keyword SharedSound and more about help for SharedSoundBuffer 0.07
Similarly with
help stream.
regarding StreamManager 0.03

{the . is an abbreviation marker, so help sh. for example gets loads of stuff about shellCLI, sharedsound, shrinkRMA, showfree etc. A bit like shell name autocomplete on unix but inverted}

Also in the TaskWindow, try
ifthere system:modules.streamman then echo yay else echo boo

If all else fails, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p85xwZ_OLX0

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: BW: Branch on Whim

On 2013-02-07 2:48 PM, tim Rowledge wrote: That stuff looks grand. I'll try it tomorrow. Setting up the RPi is
something of a production at the moment. Wires everywhere. And the new
screen does double duty as a second monitor for my Mac. So, the detailed
advice you've provided I'll have to read, think about, and try in the
morning.
I figure !System adds a module and I should see it by getting the
TaskWindow and entering *MODULES. (I found an old Archimedes manual at a
library at the U.ofT.). I think you said as much about drilling down
through the !boot file. It won't be long now. It's opening up at high
speed, as I only got it all assembled on Sunday.

Thanks,
Chris

On 07-02-2013, at 11:58 AM, Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
> That stuff looks grand. I'll try it tomorrow. Setting up the RPi is something of a production at the moment. Wires everywhere. And the new screen does double duty as a second monitor for my Mac. So, the detailed advice you've provided I'll have to read, think about, and try in the morning.
> I figure !System adds a module and I should see it by getting the TaskWindow and entering *MODULES. (I found an old Archimedes manual at a library at the U.ofT.). I think you said as much about drilling down through the !boot file. It won't be long now. It's opening up at high speed, as I only got it all assembled on Sunday.
>


Ah - *modules tells you what modules are *loaded*. Which of course isn't always all of them. One of the joys of a system with dynamic loading of modules is that they actually have to be there to load, and the fun that can cause is the stuff of legends.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"How many Kdatlyno does it take to change a lightbulb?" "None. It sounds perfectly OK to them."

Okay, I got it working:
* if you're new to RISC OS (like me), doing the "super-quick guide" tutorial is essential
* I'll wait while you fumble with the menus and mouse buttons.
* in the web browser go to Tim's squeak page. Since text selection in the URL field does not work in any obvious way, feel free to use the backspace key. A lot.
* on Tim's page, scroll down and click the "version that worked somewhat better" link, then edit "3-9b" into "3-9d" in the URL field, and press return to attempt the download again.
- once the download finished, drag the folder icon from the download window into the SD card window.
- open that new folder and double-click the included image
- if you get that error about StreamMan (which you will on a fresh system) this means it wants you to open the included "sharedsoundbuffer" folder and follow the instructions in its "ReadFirst" file, which will apparently install some modules into the system
- I guess by analogy I should install the "deepkeys" modules, too? Haven't tried that yet.
- the indication of it working is that the whole system freezes for a couple of seconds
- wait patiently, don't double-click again, because that will run yet another copy of the VM
- and there it is! Squeak running. Yay!
- quitting from the world menu gives an error (writing the startup time stamp fails)
- there seams to be no context menu for the Squeak app in the dock bar, unlike other applications which have a Quit menu item there
- quitting using the task manager works. That's the raspberry icon in the lower right. Might be more like killing, though.
- possibly the Squeak folder is still zipped. It has a big Z emblazoned on it.  Which would explain why writes fail. No idea how to do that though.
- command keys like printIt don't work. Perhaps that's what the deepkeys module is for?
- a ReadMe would be nice. Some people actually like to read those :)

But in any case, it does work! Nice :)

Thank you Tim!

- Bert -

On 17-02-2013, at 9:34 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Okay, I got it working:

Well done young man. You have passed the first stage of our tests; now, how would you like to pilot a StairFighter and help save the universe?

> * if you're new to RISC OS (like me), doing the "super-quick guide" tutorial is essential

Definitely. It is not your father's UI.

> * I'll wait while you fumble with the menus and mouse buttons.

I spent a lot of effort persuading Acorn how mouse buttons should be used, how many their should be and why the Smalltalk approach was good. I partially succeeded. Note the lack of screen space being wasted on stupid menubars. Note that the menu is properly on the middle button.

> * in the web browser go to Tim's squeak page. Since text selection in the URL field does not work in any obvious way, feel free to use the backspace key. A lot.

Ctl-U deletes the text in such an 'icon'. Note that you can select text pretty much anywhere (some places, for some reason, don't allow you to select a text range) and drag it up to the URL space. Cursor left-right & typing still work.

> * on Tim's page, scroll down and click the "version that worked somewhat better" link, then edit "3-9b" into "3-9d" in the URL field, and press return to attempt the download again.

I haven't been keeping that up to date because I need a proper download page on squeakvm.org sometime soon.

> - once the download finished, drag the folder icon from the download window into the SD card window.

Yup; the good news is that you can go off and open filer windows without losing the download widget.

> - open that new folder and double-click the included image
> - if you get that error about StreamMan (which you will on a fresh system) this means it wants you to open the included "sharedsoundbuffer" folder and follow the instructions in its "ReadFirst" file, which will apparently install some modules into the system
> - I guess by analogy I should install the "deepkeys" modules, too? Haven't tried that yet.

Urk. I was about to point out the READMERIGHTNOW file and notice that it isn't actually in that latest download. Sigh.

Yes, you need to install the deepkeys  and sharedsoundbuffer stuff for it to work well. Instructions are in the directories. Then rebooting is a good idea. I know, how terribly 1980s - but the deepkeys module needs to be installed very early in the boot process to do its job fully. C'est la vm.

> - the indication of it working is that the whole system freezes for a couple of seconds

Not strictly correct; while the image is *loading* you can get on with other stuff because it loads in 64kb chunks with a process swap check in between each one. While the image is starting up - a depressingly long process in recent images, somebody really needs to fix that - you will probably have trouble.

> - wait patiently, don't double-click again, because that will run yet another copy of the VM
> - and there it is! Squeak running. Yay!

That's the stuff.

> - quitting from the world menu gives an error (writing the startup time stamp fails)

Hunh? Never seen that one before. OH! Wait a minute, were you running the image directly out of the zip file? You can actually do that, sorta, since RISC OS treats a zip file as a stupid directory. Depending upon which version of SparkFS you have you may or may not get write-back capability.
Just make a directory in a suitable place and drag the contents of the Zip to it.

> - there seams to be no context menu for the Squeak app in the dock bar, unlike other applications which have a Quit menu item there

Never got around to it. Probably should. All it does right now is bring the Squeak window to the front if you click on it.

> - quitting using the task manager works. That's the raspberry icon in the lower right. Might be more like killing, though.

Nah, a perfectly ok way to quit without saving. Likewise the X icon on the top left of the window titlebar works.

> - possibly the Squeak folder is still zipped. It has a big Z emblazoned on it.  Which would explain why writes fail. No idea how to do that though.

See above.

> - command keys like printIt don't work. Perhaps that's what the deepkeys module is for?

Print Screen (on most keyboards, the old PC/AT standard with the Print Screen/SysRq label) is mapped to the squeak interrupt key like cmd-. on Macs. SysRq seemed a nice match.

> - a ReadMe would be nice. Some people actually like to read those :)

Blush. Forgot it.
>
> But in any case, it does work! Nice :)
>
> Thank you Tim!

You're welcome. Now evangelise! It works really nicely on a Pi. I haven't got around to trying Raspbian but quite a few people have told me RISC OS is much more responsive.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful Latin Phrases:- Re vera, potas bene = Say, you sure are drinking a lot.

On 17-02-2013, at 9:34 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
> * if you're new to RISC OS (like me), doing the "super-quick guide" tutorial is essential

Oh, forgot to mention - there's quite a few youtube videos that might provide enlightenment. "RISC OS raspberry pi"


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"!sgub evah t'nseod CP sihT ?sgub naem ayaddahW"

On 17-02-2013, at 11:34 AM, tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On 17-02-2013, at 9:34 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> * if you're new to RISC OS (like me), doing the "super-quick guide" tutorial is essential
>
> Oh, forgot to mention - there's quite a few youtube videos that might provide enlightenment. "RISC OS raspberry pi"

In particular, in relation to Scratch, take a look at
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGLzSx3_eA
At about 3:30 he's running Doom. Now, somebody tell me that a PI can't do graphics fast...

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
A sad tale that brings a lump to the eye and a tear to the throat.

Am 02/17/2013 08:37 PM, schrieb tim Rowledge:
> In particular, in relation to Scratch, take a look at
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGLzSx3_eA
> At about 3:30 he's running Doom. Now, somebody tell me that a PI can't do graphics fast...
>
>
The GPU is ok, but it needs to be accessed properly. Don't know how well the OpenGL stull is supported in RISC OS, in
linux it's accessible but AFAIK there is no proper X11 integration so you need to take over the screen (which is the One
True Way to do Smalltalk anyway :-) .)
When I find some cycles to burn on the RasPi I'd like to try an OpenGL ES display interface for Squeak. Too many
projects, too little time...

Cheers,
Hans-Martin

On 17-02-2013, at 1:13 PM, Hans-Martin Mosner <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 02/17/2013 08:37 PM, schrieb tim Rowledge:
>> In particular, in relation to Scratch, take a look at
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PGLzSx3_eA
>> At about 3:30 he's running Doom. Now, somebody tell me that a PI can't do graphics fast...
>>
>>
> The GPU is ok, but it needs to be accessed properly.

That was Doom under RISC OS; which isn't doing anything clever with the gpu yet so far as I can tell. RISC OS *does* dynamically compile some of the graphics operations (since about 1989) but that is with ARM code.

> Don't know how well the OpenGL stull is supported in RISC OS, in
Not at all as far as I know.

> linux it's accessible but AFAIK there is no proper X11 integration so you need to take over the screen (which is the One
> True Way to do Smalltalk anyway :-) .)

No argument at all with that.  I want to go back to Squeak being the only program running so I can use hardware events for the keyboard etc and get better input responsiveness. Instead of guessing when it might be worth taking a look for an OS input event, let an interrupt tell you. Instead of guessing when it would be good to check for another ST process wanting some tie, let a timer interrupt force it every millisecond or whatever.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
A bug in the hand is better than one as yet undetected.

On 2013-02-17, at 22:13, Hans-Martin Mosner <[hidden email]> wrote:


THis weekend I tried Minecraft on the RPi (http://pi.minecraft.net/). Renders pretty smoothly, and you can "hack" it. Just telnet to port 4711 :) If I find time next weekend I'll do some Squeak bindings (they ship Python and Java ones, and I saw Ruby on the 'net).

Minecraft Pi pretends to run OpenGL in a window. They use the same trick as we do in Squeak: put a 3D overlay on the screen, and move it when the window moves. But you notice the cheating when you try to bring another window in front of it ;)

- Bert -

Hello,

I don't know if it is OK to re-use this old message, but I was following this conversation to solve my StreamMan problem while installing Squeak (I downloaded Squeak RiscOS 4.4 on riscos squeak.org) on RiscOs (New to RiscOs, having some experience with squeak on Linux)

Only, I did not get it working, I got until the
- wait patiently, don't double-click again, because that will run yet another copy of the VM

I saw th Squeak icon appear, and after a while, I got an error saying:
    Squeak may have gone wrong. Click Continue to resume or  Quit to stop Squeak.
Of course, I choose the Describe button that gave the message:
   Internal Error. Abort on data transfer at &FC02D134.


I'm sill trying to figure out how to get to the postmortem report, but whatever button I use to click, the window always closes immediately.  


I hoped you could provide any pointers on what I'm doing wrong


Many thanks,

Edwin Ancaer

Hello,

I add a picture of the postmortem data, as I did not find a way to save them in a file.
I hope the result is clear enough.



If anybody has an idea

Thanks in advance,

Edwin Ancaer

Apologies for the delayed response; busy re-conditioning my kitchen furniture etc. Have to take advantage of the last few days of relatively warm/dry weather for spraying!

From the screenshot you posted it is evident that the initial Display setup is failing to set up the big table to translate Squeak colour values to RISC OS ones. I’m fairly sure it is the call to read the depth required for the palette since the failure seems to be on line 671 of platforms/RiscOS/vm/sqRPCWindows.c - which I can assert from reading the executable in the text editor (not actually witchcraft since the RISC OS text editor can disassemble executables and display them in nice clean assembler format).

The only likely candidate I can come up with is the process of building the root window failed to actually create a window and set the handle element of the window structures I keep in a linked list (this is part of the Ffenestri system for multiple host windows)  *except* if the create-a-window OS call failed it would have raised a fatal error in a different place. See platforms/RiscOS/vm/sqRPCWindows.c  ll:1013 for example.

So I’m currently baffled. On my admittedly very old Pi SD card with RISC OS it works perfectly well for the default screen depth. Did you by any chance change anything at all to do with screen size or depth, either in RISC OS or Squeak?

I’ll try to download the latest RISC OS sometime but I’m kinda swamped right now so please don’t hold your breath for any answers!



tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
The substance "Hey Y'all, watch this!" is known by the state of California to be hazardous to your health.

No apologies necessary: I appreciate the effort that goes into the maintenance  of Squeak on Riscos.
There is enough for me to learn about RISCos and Squeak to keep me occupied for a while..  

Some additional info from display manager:

Colours: 16 million
Resolution: 1024 x 768
Frame Rate: 6O Hz
After changing the colors to 256, and restarting, the problem remains.

Another question:  Could this  problem be linked to the installation of GCC?
When I start the Raspberry Pi, and lick the image file, I get the error 'File make not found' .


Then, clicking the GCC-application and clicking the image file again,  the problem with the make file is gone, but I get the 'Squeak may have gone wrong' error..

I will create a new noobs SD-card, and try an installation on a new Riscos installation of squeak on that.

Kind regards,
Edwin Ancaer

Hello,

I just tried with a newly installed RiscOS, but the result remained the same.

I tried to reset the settings from Display Manager,

Colours:    256
Resolution: 1280 * 720
Frame Rate: 76 Hz

The error still occurs.  

Kind regards,