Not very visible Squeak-dev set at squeak.org

It would be nice if the Squeak-dev images initiative was more visible in
the Squeak.org. What about adding it in the orange menu Links or even
better in the Download green menu?

Every time a new programmer to Squeak want to take a try I point it to
squeak-dev because it comes with the interesting packages/extension
installed for developer. It will be very helpful when promoting squeak
if we could have these more visible.

Hilaire

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 01:32:06 -0700, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

> It would be nice if the Squeak-dev images initiative was more visible in  
> the Squeak.org. What about adding it in the orange menu Links or even  
> better in the Download green menu?
>
> Every time a new programmer to Squeak want to take a try I point it to  
> squeak-dev because it comes with the interesting packages/extension  
> installed for developer. It will be very helpful when promoting squeak  
> if we could have these more visible.

And to think, just yesterday there was a complaint that Squeak-dev (and  
SqueakLight) were too visible and caused confusion about what was official.

I like Squeak-dev a lot, too, mind you, and would tend to recommend it  
over vanilla for developers I wanted to lure in. It has so many of the  
comforts of home (wherever that was before you found Squeak)....

Blake a écrit :

I think Squeak-dev should be the default one. The default Squeak image
that could be download from the web site should be thought as a kind of
Linux Kernel and Squeak-dev more as a Linux distribution (for developers).

-- Serge Stinckwich
http://doesnotunderstand.free.fr/

On 7/7/07, Blake <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> And to think, just yesterday there was a complaint that Squeak-dev (and
> SqueakLight) were too visible and caused confusion about what was official.
>

Hi Blake, if you are referring to my comment I never said anything
about being "too visible". In fact I use Squeak-dev myself and agree
with the suggestion that it, and others, should be clearly listed on
Squeak.org. My concern, which I may be guilty of not stating clearly,
was the apparent diversity of effort and lack of information about how
all these releases relate, if at all. Eg, Spoon now being touted as
the future Squeak, maybe so, I don't know but I do know it must be
awfully confusing to anyone new to Squeak.

If not then sorry :-)

+1

Also, check out Ramon Leon's blog, "A Squeak Smalltalk Development Example",
and a comment in Blaine Buxton's latest blog entry, "Crabs in the Pot"  
regarding the usability of Squeak-Dev vs "vanilla" Squeak image, especially
for the newbies.

-Larry Trutter

_________________________________________________________________
http://liveearth.msn.com

On Sat, 07 Jul 2007 07:16:45 -0700, Derek O'Connell <[hidden email]>  
wrote:

I'm just pointing out that the issue may be more complex than it seems at  
first glance.

As I was thinking about it, and read Ramon's blog entry that Larry  
recommends later on in the thread, it seems to me that improvements could  
be made. (Despite the use of the passive voice here, I'm willing to  
help.<s>)

What if we had a guided tour? You know, "if you're brand new to Squeak  
and/or Smalltalk, here's a walkthrough of some of the interesting things  
you can do..."

It could go on to explain the relationship of Squeak to Smalltalk, E-Toys,  
Seaside, Scratch, even stuff like Dabble and Plopp, with screenshots and  
so on. There could be branches for exiting the tour once you'd found the  
point of interest. The tour guide could be the Squeak mouse....

This could be good PR as well as a friendly way to introduce people to the  
wonders of Squeak.

        ===Blake===

"And to think, just yesterday there was a complaint that Squeak-dev (and  
SqueakLight) were too visible and caused confusion about what was official."

I had the thought that what might help is to categorize the downloads. I was thinking for the current official version, squeak.org could put it under "Education and Multimedia -- eToys, audio, video, Alice, 3D graphics". The developer image could be on the same page, categorized under "Seaside", and maybe "Smalltalk Coders/Hackers images", to make it more clear that this category is targeted at those who want to work on web projects, or at a lower level in the system. Each could provide a link for further explanation, talking about what each can be used for, if that seems necessary. Some visual cues would help, I'm sure, like showing a screenshot of what eToys looks like in the official version, with the classic "driving the car" demo.

The developer images link could take people to the other page which has the different developer images.

Just throwing out some suggestions. The key to clearing up confusion is to make clear associations in people's minds. The whole point of having different images is that each has certain uses and benefits to different people. I think they should emphasize the areas that people are most likely to have identified with Squeak.

For example, with the online videos of Squeak, people have seen Alan Kay giving demonstrations with the multimedia features, emphasizing education. There have also been some videos on Seaside. There have been Seaside demos done at Rails conferences. Developers know the name. So I would think "multimedia", and "education" would be the two terms most strongly associated with the official version, and "Seaside" with the developer version, though it would be best if some general term(s) were thrown in as well to make it clear that it's not JUST for Seaside development.

---Mark
[hidden email]

[hidden email] a écrit :
> "And to think, just yesterday there was a complaint that Squeak-dev (and  
> SqueakLight) were too visible and caused confusion about what was official."
>
> I had the thought that what might help is to categorize the downloads. I was thinking for the current official version, squeak.org could put it under "Education and Multimedia -- eToys, audio, video, Alice, 3D graphics". The developer image could be on the same page, categorized under "Seaside", and maybe "Smalltalk Coders/Hackers images", to make it more clear that this category is targeted at those who want to work on web projects, or at a lower level in the system. Each could provide a link for further explanation, talking about what each can be used for, if that seems necessary. Some visual cues would help, I'm sure, like showing a screenshot of what eToys looks like in the official version, with the classic "driving the car" demo.


Yes i agree about the categorization, but why categorize the last
current official version (3.9) under the category "Education &
Multimedia" ? Try to dl the 3.9 version. This is just a developer
version without the bells and whistles of the squeak-dev version. The
3.8 could be categorize "Education & multimedia".

-- Serge Stinckwich
http://doesnotunderstand.free.fr/

So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not
point to squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image ?

After all for educative use, people should just be pointed to
SqueakLand, right?


Hilaire

Serge Stinckwich a écrit :

> So, are there any reason the download link at the top right should not
> point to squeak-dev regularly-updated and useful-for-developer image ?

Yes, there are very good reasons NOT to do this.  It disrupts a
"universal starting point" that everyone uses to describe how to get
to a particular Squeak-destination.  If a regularly-updated squeak-dev
becomes the main download link, how do you easily describe to a newbie
how to get to a particular destination when the starting point is a
moving target?

Making the squeak-dev image the main download link puts way too much
power in the hands of one person; dictating their personal IDE
preferences to entire future Squeak generations.

The possible Squeak-destinations are too varied, *vanilla* should
remain as the official starting point that people download.

The real goal here is "more visibility", not easier access.  And, even
if easier-access is the goal then solve it at the consuming side, not
the producing side.

Afterall, developers are savvy enough to handle that anyway, and it
gets newbies on board with the idea that the "scenery" in the Squeak
world can and will vary widely.

Thanks,
  Chris

On 7/9/07, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 7/9/07, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote:
People have been getting introduced to Squeak in various ways. They may have seen one of Alan Kay's demos online, as I did. They may have seen a Seaside demo given by one of a few people (I've seen these as well). They may have heard about Sophie, or Pier. There will be those (like me) who've heard about the full gamut of uses that have currently been found for it, and are interested in exploring it. They may come to squeak.org instead of squeakland.org.

As I've been reading newbies' responses to Squeak, some things have become clear to me. While educators like the educational and multimedia features of Squeak, those who are more interested in developing applications, particularly for the web with Seaside or Pier, are generally not interested in those features. They're more interested in using Squeak as a development vehicle. They're focused on learning the language, how to use the code browsers, the debugger, Monticello, Seaside, Magritte, Glorp, etc.

I understand the argument about directing people to Squeakland if they're interested in education and multimedia. Maybe that would be better. I am not experienced enough in Squeak to know if certain things in the 3.8 version have been improved from the version at Squeakland.

The main reason I was suggesting the "selection" strategy is I have been hearing complaints from people who have heard about Seaside and want to try it, and they take one look at the default Squeak download and balk. Maybe it's not even squeak.org's fault, since they may have gotten their version from the Seaside site, and maybe they used the education/multimedia image. I don't know. In any case it doesn't speak to them. They came there to get a development tool that they heard was there, for a goal they had. They see it and dismiss it as a "child's toy", because it says to them, "Hi. I'm cute." That's not what they came to get. Personally I wasn't turned off by that, but I had more context.

It seems to me there's a bit of a schism in the Squeak developer community. There are those who have fully embraced the vision of Squeak; who see it as a system to explore and change, and learn with. And then there are those who see Squeak as a powerful application development tool. I can sympathize with both sides, which is why I feel that presenting Squeak as satisfying both goals, with a different emphasis for each, will be welcoming to both groups.

I think Serge is right about 3.8 vs. 3.9. I don't think 3.9 should be offered for both uses, at least not without bringing back the other flaps for the educational version.

---Mark
[hidden email]