Open Notepad from Visualworks

Dear All,
We are in need of opening a notepad from visualwork 5.i developed application.
I have gone through the posts here and tried with the below.
OSSystemSupport concreteClass CreateProcess: nil arguments: 'C:\Windows\System32\notepad.exe C:\Save And Open\notepad.txt'
This code works fine in 7i versions and not in 5i. Can any expert comment whether this is not supported in VW 5i versions or not?
Thanks in advance,
Jadev

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Hi Sree,
I have seen the answers for your query for the same in this group. However, i am not seeing the winProcess or MininalShellInterface in vw5i.
I am not sure whether any other parcel to be loaded for the same.
These are available in 7i.

Dont do something like that. Use the Microsoft ShellExecute API instead. This will work on non-english computers and enable the customer to choose their preferred application for txt files

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-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jay
Sent: 28. januar 2015 09:07
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [vwnc] Open Notepad from Visualworks

Dear All,
We are in need of opening a notepad from visualwork 5.i developed application.
I have gone through the posts here and tried with the below.
OSSystemSupport concreteClass CreateProcess: nil arguments:
'C:\Windows\System32\notepad.exe C:\Save And Open\notepad.txt'
This code works fine in 7i versions and not in 5i. Can any expert comment whether this is not supported in VW 5i versions or not?
Thanks in advance,
Jadev



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Your command line looks wrong: you need double quotes around the txt file
name because it contains spaces:
OSSystemSupport concreteClass CreateProcess: nil arguments:
'C:\Windows\System32\notepad.exe "C:\Save And Open\notepad.txt"'
That works for me in 5i.3 visual.im.

If you want a different interface to the process commands, see
goodies\other\Aragon\Parcels\5i\Aragon\System\Win32.pcl.

S.
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The server has rejected your mail. This address does not exist any more




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Thanks Steve. I am having 5i.0 and the same command advised by you is not working there. I am getting an exception 'Unhandled Exception: external object not found'

Dear Jay,

VisualWorks 5i.0 is ... 16 years old! How do you expect anything to work there?

Consider an update. You'll have all the technical options plus the reliable vendor support necessary for a future safe and profitable operation of your software.

Cheers
Helge

**************************************************************
Helge Nowak
Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk
Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG
Am Kronberger Hang 4
D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
Email: mailto:[hidden email]
Twitter: @nowagil
Web: http://www.cincom.com

All about Cincom Smalltalk:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com

A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
-- Albert Einstein

Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan
oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653)
Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB 5069)
**************************************************************



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Jay
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Januar 2015 11:40
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Open Notepad from Visualworks

Thanks Steve. I am having 5i.0 and the same command advised by you is not working there. I am getting an exception 'Unhandled Exception: external object not found'



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An 5i.0 application would be legacy code in need of minor application extension. It would have ENVY/Developer source code control, and likely also involve use of GemKit to manage GS/S code in ENVY. The age of the application demonstrates the perceived value to the company compared to upgrade costs. Most Smalltalk development from that era is in maintenance, and if management were pressured would rewrite before upgrade. An upgrade path doesn't exist for all that is likely required. Jay is probably posting to vwNC forums after not being able to get vendor support.

Jay,

My experience is that early VW code required a DLL wrapper that could launch applications through Windows. I don't recall if VW 5i has a built-in way to do what you need, but I presume it did not because someone had found it necessary to create that DLL. You'll probably have to create a similar DLL yourself. Newer VW releases didn't require that DLL to launch applications, and code has long since been changed. Since you have access to newer VW releases you might first see if it is possible to back-port some code. Also look for a general way to call Windows functions from within VW.

Windows Notepad isn't a very useful tool to launch. Edit the file from within VW if practical. I presume that Notepad was only an example and that you really need to launch something more feature rich like a spreadsheet program.

Paul Baumann





-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 06:58
To: Jay; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Open Notepad from Visualworks

Dear Jay,

VisualWorks 5i.0 is ... 16 years old! How do you expect anything to work there?

Consider an update. You'll have all the technical options plus the reliable vendor support necessary for a future safe and profitable operation of your software.

Cheers
Helge

**************************************************************
Helge Nowak
Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG Am Kronberger Hang 4
D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
Email: mailto:[hidden email]
Twitter: @nowagil
Web: http://www.cincom.com

All about Cincom Smalltalk:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com

A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
-- Albert Einstein

Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653) Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB 5069)
**************************************************************



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Jay
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Januar 2015 11:40
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Open Notepad from Visualworks

Thanks Steve. I am having 5i.0 and the same command advised by you is not working there. I am getting an exception 'Unhandled Exception: external object not found'



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Dear Paul,

I don't know about Jay's application. He may or may not use ENVY. It may or may not use GemStone. The business may require minor or major changes and extensions to its functionality. And, I won't speculate about feelings and decisions of his management.

What I do know is that there is always an upgrade path for everything that the application requires. And I do know that an upgrade from VisualWorks 5i to the current version of Cincom VisualWorks requires much less effort than a rewrite. And I do know that the current version of Cincom VisualWorks is a fully supported future-proof platform.

Evaluating an upgrade to the current version is a usual (because necessary) step of managing costs, risks and returns of an application and the investments made.

Dear Jay,

in VisualWorks 5i there is no need for an additional DLL wrapper to launch applications through Windows. The code you provided doesn't work in 5i though it should as by the method comment in "Win95SystemSupport>>CreateProcess:arguments:". It works in Cincom VisualWorks 5i.1. It is just one of the many bugs in 5i.

Yet, as Paul mentions for more sophisticated interaction with external applications you would use other APIs such as DLLs, COM, .Net, Web Services etc. Whatever the external application provides. Such facilities are provided in the current version of Cincom VisualWorks.

Cheers
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Paul Baumann [mailto:[hidden email]]
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Januar 2015 18:43
An: Nowak, Helge; Jay; [hidden email]
Betreff: RE: [vwnc] Open Notepad from Visualworks

An 5i.0 application would be legacy code in need of minor application extension. It would have ENVY/Developer source code control, and likely also involve use of GemKit to manage GS/S code in ENVY. The age of the application demonstrates the perceived value to the company compared to upgrade costs. Most Smalltalk development from that era is in maintenance, and if management were pressured would rewrite before upgrade. An upgrade path doesn't exist for all that is likely required. Jay is probably posting to vwNC forums after not being able to get vendor support.

Jay,

My experience is that early VW code required a DLL wrapper that could launch applications through Windows. I don't recall if VW 5i has a built-in way to do what you need, but I presume it did not because someone had found it necessary to create that DLL. You'll probably have to create a similar DLL yourself. Newer VW releases didn't require that DLL to launch applications, and code has long since been changed. Since you have access to newer VW releases you might first see if it is possible to back-port some code. Also look for a general way to call Windows functions from within VW.

Windows Notepad isn't a very useful tool to launch. Edit the file from within VW if practical. I presume that Notepad was only an example and that you really need to launch something more feature rich like a spreadsheet program.

Paul Baumann





-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2015 06:58
To: Jay; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Open Notepad from Visualworks

Dear Jay,

VisualWorks 5i.0 is ... 16 years old! How do you expect anything to work there?

Consider an update. You'll have all the technical options plus the reliable vendor support necessary for a future safe and profitable operation of your software.

Cheers
Helge

**************************************************************
Helge Nowak
Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG Am Kronberger Hang 4
D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
Email: mailto:[hidden email]
Twitter: @nowagil
Web: http://www.cincom.com

All about Cincom Smalltalk:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com

A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
-- Albert Einstein

Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653) Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB 5069)
**************************************************************



-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Jay
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 28. Januar 2015 11:40
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Open Notepad from Visualworks

Thanks Steve. I am having 5i.0 and the same command advised by you is not working there. I am getting an exception 'Unhandled Exception: external object not found'



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Dear Jay,

VisualWorks 5i.0 is ... 16 years old! How do you expect anything to work there?

Consider an update. You'll have all the technical options plus the reliable vendor support necessary for a future safe and profitable operation of your software.

Obviously the converse is true too, Cincoms target market might well like it a lot more if instead Cincom wrote:

VisualWorks 5i is 16 years old, Cincom Smalltalk targets the enterprise and thus fully supports such long-lived deployments.

Seeing that your are using the external process API in 5i I can advise you that that has known bugs. If you apply ARxxxx  etc...





Cincoms enterprise-supporting customers would be helped if there were intent on Cincom's side to stabilize the base platform so we _know_ we can load both 15-year-old applications and their 15-year-old supporting libraries onto the current VW version (and tools!) and have it perform correctly.

I know that is a hard problem,  it seems the second-best option would be to 'simply' support old VW versions for 30+ years or so.

As it is it seems Cincom does not cater to such needs of their enterprise customers - instead it suggests to introduce both risk and delay prior to doing a simple maintenance task...


Here at Soops we find VW to be an awesome tool .... until we are told to move all our applications to a new version. We find that repetitive VW updates cut deeply into the "safe and profitable operation" of our software.
It would help if Cincom had 'no need to upgrade' offerings for its enterprise facing customers, after all in enterprise land 16 years old bespoke applications are not uncommon at all. (and sometimes we even see 16 year old deployments!)


R
-


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Dear All,

I appreciate the healthy discussion on this topic and the inputs received from many of the experts. Thanks a lot for that.

As we dont have any plan to upgrade any time soon due to business reasons, I have to find out a work around for the same.

The following is what i have tried after checking the comments on this topic from various portals.

Created a subclass under Win32SystemSupport.

In the library files, included #libraryFiles #('kernel32.dll ').

Used the below code to open the external application.
| prefix |
        OSHandle currentOS == #win32 ifTrue:
                ['nt' = ((OSHandle currentPlatformID tokensBasedOn:
Character space) at: 3) asLowercase
                      ifTrue:  [prefix := 'cmd /x /c start "" ']
                      ifFalse: [prefix := 'start '].
                 ^ABCWin32SystemSupport
                    CreateDetachedProcess: nil
                       arguments: prefix, '"C:\Users\xyz.doc"'].

This works fine for me and i can change the arguments with any type of file extension.And windows call in turn gives me the file opened.

I could have included ''kernel32.dll' in the Win32SystemSupport class too. However, i am not sure whether including this will break something else as the application is a long standing one. So subclass is created and using the same for my own need in the code.

It would be good if any of you experts comment on this approach and let me know whether this can cause any other problems....

Once again, thanks for all your help!

Regards
Jay

Dear Reinout,

 

I agree, it is quite common that businesses have the need to run their software over a long period of time – especially if it is business critical “Enterprise” software”. Yet it doesn’t come for free. Such companies have to prepare for this. The responsible people (should) know that platforms (operating systems, software stacks, databases etc.) co-evolve.

What you describe here is what I guess you can find in small companies.
However the larger these companies are the less true this becomes, the dynamics of large companies pretty much ensure that the responsibilities enumerated above are very effectively routed around.
So from where I'm looking I get the impression that Cincom St is (still) living in a fantasy land.
My hope is that at some Concom will go down the rabbit hole, to get away from the mindset (culture?) that makes people write things like

They make sure that there never emerges a gap anywhere.

which to people in the field is known to be way far-out.

For example:
-the Dutch railways don't have a back-up control center, so when a fire nearby forced an evacuation the trains stopped....
-the Belgian electricity generating companies have collectively  played a game of chicken, so much so that a new 'strategic reserve' market has opened up to separate the bag holders from the rich kids when capacity dips below demand.
-Software for nuclear reactors in the states are tested within normal operating conditions, the effects of running the software under exceptional circumstances is untested, the associated risk is simply mitigated through insurance.

/that/ is how technology is approached in 'enterprise level' companies, the allegence is to share holders and personal fiefdoms -- not to technological soundness.

This has become even more necessary with companies like Apple ditching versions and platforms quickly. In our complex and fast paced environment having long term backwards+forward compatibility is just a dream.

The current market is showing a bifurcation between fast-moving targets (like iOS and OS X, probably Linux too) and 'enterprise grade' platforms that try hard to support long-term compatibility (MsWindows, perhaps some *nix flavors, big iron too I guess).
Perhaps it is time that the Cincom Smalltalk family ought to show a similar bifurcation, a 'bleeding edge' St product (iOS, video, 3D, speech interaction, p2p technologies, autonomous agents, sensor fusion, big data, deep learning, etc, etc) and an enterprise program that supports ancient installations embedded in ancient environments (as400, Corba and such)....

The good news: Smalltalk has proven stability, especially in complex fast paced environments. We all know of Smalltalk applications that run much longer than 16 years. Isn’t that awesome?

One of the points I am trying to make is that these particular installations are out of support and that Cincom signals they should stay out of support unless they go through this risk laden cycle every (very few) years first.

 

In Jay’s case the businesses are trying to run their enterprise software based on a known-to-be-buggy software stack (VisualWorks 5i) for 16 years and at the same time they are updating the environment (Windows 7), creating the gap.

Cincom seems to view this as a problem instead of an opportunity, which in turn seems to have lead to your response that Jay's customer is doing it the wrong way ("How do you expect anything to work there?"). Where Cincom says 'trying to run' Jays customer 'is running', that piece of software is combat-proven and Cincom proposes to disrupt that instead of supporting it.

Remember: VisualWorks 5i had been released in March 1999 by ObjectShare. Cincom took over in October 1999. Already early 2000 Cincom Smalltalk VisualWorks 5i.1 was released which fixed a lot bugs, including the one from this thread. The subsequent releases not only fixed even more issues but had also many new features such as web support, Web Tool Kit and Web Services which allowed to not only keep the application running but enhance it to implement and integrate into modern architectures. All this was possible simply by applying changes in Smalltalk code and maybe exchanging the vms. Usually bugs can be fixed by “apply ARxxx” provided by Cincom Support even between releases.

This all is of much smaller value that you seem to be aware of.
At Soops we abandoned a VW upgrade because we ran out of resource (money wasted!), so large was that chore, so instable were the modernizations of that particular release, yet Cincom keeps asserting that what happened to us can not be true.

 

Cincom took all the steps necessary for VisualWorks users to keep their applications state-of-the-art and profitable. Instead of taking advantage of these opportunities the owners of Jay’s applications decided to stay on a buggy version the vendor of which had gone out of business. And today, Jay and – much more importantly – the end-users of Jay’s application are the ones who have to suffer from this decision.

Gloom and doom! Smalltalk cannot run for more than three years! The customer is wrong! The end users are suffering!
Again: Jay's application is probably a known factor (including its bugs), the users know how it behaves, Cincom advises to uproot that. Moreover Cincom presents staying in the comfort zone as a buggy way of working. I repeat: please come down the rabbit hole and enjoy the company...

 

Yet there is still more good news: Even Cincom VisualWorks 8.0 is technically not that far away from VisualWorks 5i.0 so that an update is possible with reasonable effort. It is not too late to move on to the future with those Enterprise Applications.

What you call "reasonable effort" is called a show-stopper in most enterprise environments I have encountered.
Upgrading to a new VW can be hellishly expensive (the minor problem) introduces risk (the major problem) and it introduces a cascade of budget requests (We need to re-test not just a bit, but /all/ of the functionality! The manual has to change because a font changed! We need to retrain the users because the manual will change! If we need to retrain the users we need to deploy a training environment! Hey, were are the old requirements? etc, etc).


Jay's customer would probably be a lot happier they chose VW in the past if they got unquestioning support instead of getting advise telling them they are doing it all wrong....
I fully understand the sentiments regarding buggyness etc from a technical point of view as well as Cincom's desire to /not/ own 5i, but that meshes rather poorly with the stubborn reality of how enterprises tick. Providing (and advertising!) support all the way back to VW2.5 might be a godsend for certain installations, might keep such customers on the VW platform too....


 Reinout
-------

 

Cheers

Helge

 

 

Von: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Reinout Heeck
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 29. Januar 2015 18:40
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: [vwnc] only 16 years old (Re: Open Notepad from Visualworks)

 

On 1/28/2015 12:58 PM, Nowak, Helge wrote:

Dear Jay,

VisualWorks 5i.0 is ... 16 years old! How do you expect anything to work there?

Consider an update. You'll have all the technical options plus the reliable vendor support necessary for a future safe and profitable operation of your software.

Obviously the converse is true too, Cincoms target market might well like it a lot more if instead Cincom wrote:

VisualWorks 5i is 16 years old, Cincom Smalltalk targets the enterprise and thus fully supports such long-lived deployments.

Seeing that your are using the external process API in 5i I can advise you that that has known bugs. If you apply ARxxxx  etc...





Cincoms enterprise-supporting customers would be helped if there were intent on Cincom's side to stabilize the base platform so we _know_ we can load both 15-year-old applications and their 15-year-old supporting libraries onto the current VW version (and tools!) and have it perform correctly.

I know that is a hard problem,  it seems the second-best option would be to 'simply' support old VW versions for 30+ years or so.

As it is it seems Cincom does not cater to such needs of their enterprise customers - instead it suggests to introduce both risk and delay prior to doing a simple maintenance task...


Here at Soops we find VW to be an awesome tool .... until we are told to move all our applications to a new version. We find that repetitive VW updates cut deeply into the "safe and profitable operation" of our software.
It would help if Cincom had 'no need to upgrade' offerings for its enterprise facing customers, after all in enterprise land 16 years old bespoke applications are not uncommon at all. (and sometimes we even see 16 year old deployments!)


R
-

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I looked to see how we launch Smalltalk VMs from Smalltalk.
It turns out we use a different path into the OS.

There is this VW package called 'Windows Goodies MinimalShellInterface',
I'm not sure whether it is available in 5i, but the implementaion is
just the same as you described for your solution.

With the goodie loaded we get a Smalltalk API that is exercised as follows:

   MinimalShellInterface performDefaultActionForFile: self
imageFilenameString

this implementaion calls into the Windows OS ShellExecute() function.
 From the goodie:


The main differences with your solution seems to be the presence of a
shell instance (with accompanying window?), and that the returned value
is merely an error code (no handles to clean up)

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/bb762153%28v=vs.85%29.aspx



Reinout
-------




On 2/2/2015 7:39 AM, Jay wrote: _______________________________________________
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Thanks Reinout.
The windows goodies is not available in 5i. Hence i have to rule out the option of shell interface API.
I assume, the alternate solution i mentioned would solve the issue as i have tested this with different type of files.

Anyone else foresee trouble with this code?

"
Created a subclass under Win32SystemSupport.

In the library files, included #libraryFiles #('kernel32.dll ').

Used the below code to open the external application.
| prefix |
        OSHandle currentOS == #win32 ifTrue:
                ['nt' = ((OSHandle currentPlatformID tokensBasedOn:
Character space) at: 3) asLowercase
                      ifTrue:  [prefix := 'cmd /x /c start "" ']
                      ifFalse: [prefix := 'start '].
                 ^ABCWin32SystemSupport
                    CreateDetachedProcess: nil
                       arguments: prefix, '"C:\Users\xyz.doc"'].

This works fine for me and i can change the arguments with any type of file extension.And windows call in turn gives me the file opened.

I could have included ''kernel32.dll' in the Win32SystemSupport class too. However, i am not sure whether including this will break something else as the application is a long standing one. So subclass is created and using the same for my own need in the code.
"

Thanks
Jay