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Personal Use License

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Thomas Sattler

Re: Personal Use License

Arden,

Thanks for the reply.

I know that NC did not allow us to make money. But it allowed us to *attempt* to make money. It allowed us (IIRC) to build and deploy a web site in an attempt to make money. Once we get some revenue, then we could convert to a commercial license. The way I read it, this is not permitted any more. Can you confirm?

--Tom

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.
This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

  Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>

Henrik Høyer

Chief Software Architect

[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" value="+4540292092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092

Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge

www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" value="+4570237775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas

                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.

We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.

The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.

                           Regards

                           Arden Thomas

                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Jon Paynter-2

Re: Personal Use License

Same questions from me.
I download the new "personal use" version.
I create a server of some kind ( type of server does not matter ). This server runs on my own personal PC, but is accessed by others across the internet.

Assuming Im not charging for access, or make any money as a result of the access, is this model allowed under the personal use license?

If the answer is "yes" This is what we want to hear
If the answer is anything else you will have killed VisualWorks.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Thomas Sattler <[hidden email]> wrote:

Arden,

Thanks for the reply.

I know that NC did not allow us to make money. But it allowed us to *attempt* to make money. It allowed us (IIRC) to build and deploy a web site in an attempt to make money. Once we get some revenue, then we could convert to a commercial license. The way I read it, this is not permitted any more. Can you confirm?

--Tom

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.
This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

  Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>

Henrik Høyer

Chief Software Architect

[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" value="+4540292092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092

Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge

www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" value="+4570237775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas

                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.

We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.

The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.

                           Regards

                           Arden Thomas

                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

jarober

Re: Personal Use License

On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:26 PM, Jon Paynter wrote:

Same questions from me.
I download the new "personal use" version.
I create a server of some kind ( type of server does not matter ). This server runs on my own personal PC, but is accessed by others across the internet.

Assuming Im not charging for access, or make any money as a result of the access, is this model allowed under the personal use license?

If the answer is "yes" This is what we want to hear
If the answer is anything else you will have killed VisualWorks.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Thomas Sattler <[hidden email]> wrote:
Arden,

Thanks for the reply.

I know that NC did not allow us to make money. But it allowed us to *attempt* to make money. It allowed us (IIRC) to build and deploy a web site in an attempt to make money. Once we get some revenue, then we could convert to a commercial license. The way I read it, this is not permitted any more. Can you confirm?

--Tom

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.
This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

  Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>

Henrik Høyer

Chief Software Architect

[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" value="+4540292092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092

Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge

www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" value="+4570237775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas

                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

James Robertson

http://www.jarober.com

[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Steven Kelly

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Jon Paynter-2

Similar question, but rather than a web app I make a free desktop app:

1) Can I provide an installer of that app as a sealed (or open) .exe?

2) Can others download their own personal VW, install my code from the public Store, and create their own sealed (or open) .exe for their own use?

If the answer is Yes in both cases, great and thanks, and please ignore the rest of this message!

If (as I worry) the answers are “No” and “Yes”, what do you think is the unique selling point of VW that separates 1) from 2), and which you are trying to protect with the license? Personally I think VW’s greatest competitive advantage is in the steps of developing code, whereas the deployment is harder than in other languages and IDEs. So why make everybody who wants to use my app have to see just the worst parts of VW?

All the best,

Steve

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jon Paynter
Sent: 13. lokakuuta 2011 20:26
To: Arden Thomas; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:09 AM, Thomas Sattler <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.

This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Arden Thomas
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[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

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Arden Thomas

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Thomas, Arden

Re: Personal Use License

Hi Steven, Jon, et al;

Let us discuss this internally to see what makes sense for handling these scenarios.

If there are other specific scenarios that make sense for us to consider, please send them to me.

We are looking for something fair and sensible to support our business and the community.

Thanks for your patience.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 1:41 PM, Steven Kelly wrote:

Similar question, but rather than a web app I make a free desktop app:
1) Can I provide an installer of that app as a sealed (or open) .exe?
2) Can others download their own personal VW, install my code from the public Store, and create their own sealed (or open) .exe for their own use?

If the answer is Yes in both cases, great and thanks, and please ignore the rest of this message!

If (as I worry) the answers are “No” and “Yes”, what do you think is the unique selling point of VW that separates 1) from 2), and which you are trying to protect with the license? Personally I think VW’s greatest competitive advantage is in the steps of developing code, whereas the deployment is harder than in other languages and IDEs. So why make everybody who wants to use my app have to see just the worst parts of VW?

All the best,
Steve

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

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Nowak, Helge

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Thomas Sattler

Dear all,

< disclaimer> IANAL and the following is my personal opinion. The opinion of my employer may differ. The following does not contain any legally binding interpretation of the current Personal License or the former Non Commercial License for Cincom Smalltalk.

</ disclaimer>

I won’t comment on any of the other topics and scenarios brought up. Yet from my personal point of view this one requires a direct answer. Tom, thanks for providing this example!

The problem of the non commercial license had been that there was no clear definition of “non commercial”. You think building something “in an attempt to make money” is non commercial. If we would agree on that, receiving the first Dollar would certainly not cover the license costs. So is it still non commercial? OK, then receiving enough money to cover the license cost but not the development costs would it still be non commercial? You are still not at breakeven: the deployment and runtime costs, the administration costs, your marketing etc.. You see where this is leading: any organization will make its own definition of “non commercial”. By doing this governmental organizations, non-profit organizations, non-profitable companies and even commercial companies who are using our product for consultancy or are giving away some teaser for free would claim to be covered by the NC License. We have seen this!

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers

Helge

Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Thomas Sattler
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Oktober 2011 18:09
An: Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.

This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
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Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

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"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Henrik Høyer

Re: Personal Use License

Helge wrote:

“Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.”

Having operated in the start-up business for some time, I can promise you one thing; no-one is spending money on licenses during their initial development. If you aren’t willing to follow the trend in the software business (believing/hoping for your users to having success, and thereby be able/willing to pay you in the long run), then I truly believe that you will not attract a single new customer.

Just to put you “offer” into perspective; Microsoft gives any startup access to *all development tools, server and client software etc.” for the initial 3 year (or till they reach a revenue of 1.000.000$) for the total sum of <ta-da> 100$

Henrik Høyer, sPeople Aps

[hidden email]

(+45) 4029 2092

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
Sent: 14. oktober 2011 09:49
To: Thomas Sattler; Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear all,

</ disclaimer>

I won’t comment on any of the other topics and scenarios brought up. Yet from my personal point of view this one requires a direct answer. Tom, thanks for providing this example!

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers

Helge

Von: [hidden email] [hidden email] Im Auftrag von Thomas Sattler
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Oktober 2011 18:09
An: Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.

This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>

Henrik Høyer

Chief Software Architect

[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092

Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge

www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas

                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.

We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.

The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.

                           Regards

                           Arden Thomas

                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
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Nowak, Helge

Re: Personal Use License

Sure, and IBM offers Eclipse for “free”. Interestingly enough I am dealing with prospects for new licenses that do fall in the category “startup” or “revenues below 1 Mio USD”…

The times of “I want everything for free” have passed. People do understand that business is a win-win if and only if you are fair to your suppliers. They can only deliver value to you if you pay them to be able to create good products and services.

Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Henrik Høyer
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2011 10:12
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Helge wrote:

“Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.”

Henrik Høyer, sPeople Aps

[hidden email]

(+45) 4029 2092

From: [hidden email] [hidden email] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
Sent: 14. oktober 2011 09:49
To: Thomas Sattler; Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear all,

</ disclaimer>

I won’t comment on any of the other topics and scenarios brought up. Yet from my personal point of view this one requires a direct answer. Tom, thanks for providing this example!

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers

Helge

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.

This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
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Steven Kelly

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Nowak, Helge

If you choose VW for your project, hoping to make money, you’re already benefitting significantly before you even release. If you used (say) Java, you’d have to allocate three times as much time to development, i.e. spend your time and/or pay others’ wages for longer.

Things are different if there is never any intention to make money, and particularly if your product is FOSS: if everything you make is free and open source, it’s less likely you’ll be able to start charging for it.

But for VW to exist, it has to attract the people who are going to charge for their products. And in particular, to attract them at the start of their project. That requires zero cost and low effort for investigation, near-zero cost for starting development, and clear, public pricing schemes for when you are earning your first dollar – and your first million. For people to be attracted away from the default choices of C# or Java, they need to see clearly both the benefits and the costs. VW is worth it, but if you hide the costs people will assume they’re prohibitively high.

Cheers,

Steve

Nowak, Helge wrote 14.10.11 10:49

…

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers

Helge

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.

This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Arden Thomas
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[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

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Conrad Taylor

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Thomas, Arden

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.
This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Arden, does the current personal license allow me to build open-source software that can be published for public access?

-Conrad

Regards

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

  Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>

Henrik Høyer

Chief Software Architect

[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" value="+4540292092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092

Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge

www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" value="+4570237775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas

                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.

We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.

The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.

                           Regards

                           Arden Thomas

                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
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Arden Thomas

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[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

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"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Arden Thomas
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[hidden email]
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"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Conrad Taylor

Re: Personal Use License

On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 2:01 AM, Conrad Taylor <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.
This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Arden, does the current personal license allow me to build open-source software that can be published for public access?

-Conrad

Arden, I have a followup question:

If you're an individual software developer (i.e. self employed or independent contractor), what is the cost involved in purchasing a single license of VW as well as deploying a commercial application? I tend to get irked when I want to purchase something and there's no clear pricing anywhere to be found on a web site. Thus, when I go to Cincom's web site, I will definitely have to speak with a sales person. However, it would be great to add VW Smalltalk to my online shopping cart and simply checkout.

-Conrad

Regards

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

  Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>

Henrik Høyer

Chief Software Architect

[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" value="+4540292092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092

Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge

www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" value="+4570237775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas

                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.

We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.

The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.

                           Regards

                           Arden Thomas

                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
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Arden Thomas

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[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" value="+18452960686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

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Steve Cline

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Thomas, Arden

Arden,

In the specific case you mention (children's soccer team management, no revenue), can I give it away? Would each user need a personal use license?

If it is a web based app, would each user need a personal use license?

Do you have a button for "click here to get your almost painless I am not a developer but I just want to run this free app but to do so I must register not with the developer but with their technology provider personal use license"?

As I understand the license, the answers are NO, YES, YES, and NO.

Please tell me I am wrong.

Steve Cline

Tim Kack

Re: Personal Use License

Arden,

With the current unclear licensing model am I afraid to use VW.
It is clear that the license hurdle and the unclear pricing situation will not attract people to Smalltalk.
No grass root development will occur and contributions from open source developers will cease to happen.
Why would one contribute to a product with such unclear rules.
I realize that you business model is special, but you will only reach established businesses in the enterprise.
People that wants to show off their smalltalk (as in not developed in Java) application, football team webapp, Bottomfeeder Ultimate etc will need to choose GNU Smalltak, Squeak or Pharo or ... Java. In the long run will the current licenses for VW disappear and you will loose out on it.

I think that is really really bad business and what is worse is that with it will you take a large chunk of interest away from Smalltalk since VW is one of the few high performant Smalltalks out there.

I hope that Cincom rethinks this carefully because as it stand will my advocacy for VisualWorks stop right now. It is too unclear what it will cost or if it will cost.

Best regards,
Tim

On Oct 14, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Steve Cline wrote:

> Arden,
>
> In the specific case you mention (children's soccer team management, no
> revenue), can I give it away? Would each user need a personal use license?
>
> If it is a web based app, would each user need a personal use license?
>
> Do you have a button for "click here to get your almost painless I am not a
> developer but I just want to run this free app but to do so I must register
> not with the developer but with their technology provider personal use
> license"?
>
> As I understand the license, the answers are NO, YES, YES, and NO.
>
> Please tell me I am wrong.
>
> Steve Cline
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Personal-Use-License-tp3851453p3904803.html
> Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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Dave Stevenson-3

Re: Personal Use License

I worked at ParcPlace-Digitalk, ObjectShare, and Cincom for 12 years. And I still have no idea how much VisualWorks costs.

Dave Stevenson
[hidden email]

From: Tim Kack <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Steve Cline <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, October 14, 2011 8:48:04 AM
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Arden,

With the current unclear licensing model am I afraid to use VW.
It is clear that the license hurdle and the unclear pricing situation will not attract people to Smalltalk.
No grass root development will occur and contributions from open source developers will cease to happen.
Why would one contribute to a product with such unclear rules.
I realize that you business model is special, but you will only reach established businesses in the enterprise.
People that wants to show off their smalltalk (as in not developed in Java) application, football team webapp, Bottomfeeder Ultimate etc will need to choose GNU Smalltak, Squeak or Pharo or ... Java. In the long run will the current licenses for VW disappear and you will loose out on it.

I think that is really really bad business and what is worse is that with it will you take a large chunk of interest away from Smalltalk since VW is one of the few high performant Smalltalks out there.

I hope that Cincom rethinks this carefully because as it stand will my advocacy for VisualWorks stop right now. It is too unclear what it will cost or if it will cost.

Best regards,
Tim

On Oct 14, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Steve Cline wrote:

> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Personal-Use-License-tp3851453p3904803.html
> Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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jarober

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Henrik Høyer

On Oct 14, 2011, at 4:12 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

Helge wrote:
“Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.”

Having operated in the start-up business for some time, I can promise you one thing; no-one is spending money on licenses during their initial development. If you aren’t willing to follow the trend in the software business (believing/hoping for your users to having success, and thereby be able/willing to pay you in the long run), then I truly believe that you will not attract a single new customer.

Just to put you “offer” into perspective; Microsoft gives any startup access to *all development tools, server and client software etc.” for the initial 3 year (or till they reach a revenue of 1.000.000$) for the total sum of <ta-da> 100$

Henrik Høyer, sPeople Aps
[hidden email]
(+45) 4029 2092

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
Sent: 14. oktober 2011 09:49
To: Thomas Sattler; Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear all,

< disclaimer> IANAL and the following is my personal opinion. The opinion of my employer may differ. The following does not contain any legally binding interpretation of the current Personal License or the former Non Commercial License for Cincom Smalltalk.
</ disclaimer>

I won’t comment on any of the other topics and scenarios brought up. Yet from my personal point of view this one requires a direct answer. Tom, thanks for providing this example!

The problem of the non commercial license had been that there was no clear definition of “non commercial”. You think building something “in an attempt to make money” is non commercial. If we would agree on that, receiving the first Dollar would certainly not cover the license costs. So is it still non commercial? OK, then receiving enough money to cover the license cost but not the development costs would it still be non commercial? You are still not at breakeven: the deployment and runtime costs, the administration costs, your marketing etc.. You see where this is leading: any organization will make its own definition of “non commercial”. By doing this governmental organizations, non-profit organizations, non-profitable companies and even commercial companies who are using our product for consultancy or are giving away some teaser for free would claim to be covered by the NC License. We have seen this!

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers
Helge

Von: [hidden email] [hidden email] Im Auftrag von Thomas Sattler
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Oktober 2011 18:09
An: Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Arden,

Thanks for the reply.

I know that NC did not allow us to make money. But it allowed us to *attempt* to make money. It allowed us (IIRC) to build and deploy a web site in an attempt to make money. Once we get some revenue, then we could convert to a commercial license. The way I read it, this is not permitted any more. Can you confirm?

--Tom

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.
At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.
This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>
Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas
    Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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[hidden email]
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Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">845 296 0686

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[hidden email]
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jarober

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Nowak, Helge

Umm, the "time of I want everything for free" is not really the point. Henrik was not advocating that path, nor is Steve. What they point out is that the industry went in one direction, and Cincom is heading in another. Whether you believe that the rest of the industry is wrong doesn't matter a whole lot; it doesn't even matter whether you have objective truth on your side. All that really matters is that the new norm has been set.

On Oct 14, 2011, at 4:27 AM, Nowak, Helge wrote:

Sure, and IBM offers Eclipse for “free”. Interestingly enough I am dealing with prospects for new licenses that do fall in the category “startup” or “revenues below 1 Mio USD”…

The times of “I want everything for free” have passed. People do understand that business is a win-win if and only if you are fair to your suppliers. They can only deliver value to you if you pay them to be able to create good products and services.

Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Henrik Høyer
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2011 10:12
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Helge wrote:
“Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.”

Having operated in the start-up business for some time, I can promise you one thing; no-one is spending money on licenses during their initial development. If you aren’t willing to follow the trend in the software business (believing/hoping for your users to having success, and thereby be able/willing to pay you in the long run), then I truly believe that you will not attract a single new customer.

Just to put you “offer” into perspective; Microsoft gives any startup access to *all development tools, server and client software etc.” for the initial 3 year (or till they reach a revenue of 1.000.000$) for the total sum of <ta-da> 100$

Henrik Høyer, sPeople Aps
[hidden email]
(+45) 4029 2092

From: [hidden email] [hidden email] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
Sent: 14. oktober 2011 09:49
To: Thomas Sattler; Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear all,

< disclaimer> IANAL and the following is my personal opinion. The opinion of my employer may differ. The following does not contain any legally binding interpretation of the current Personal License or the former Non Commercial License for Cincom Smalltalk.
</ disclaimer>

I won’t comment on any of the other topics and scenarios brought up. Yet from my personal point of view this one requires a direct answer. Tom, thanks for providing this example!

The problem of the non commercial license had been that there was no clear definition of “non commercial”. You think building something “in an attempt to make money” is non commercial. If we would agree on that, receiving the first Dollar would certainly not cover the license costs. So is it still non commercial? OK, then receiving enough money to cover the license cost but not the development costs would it still be non commercial? You are still not at breakeven: the deployment and runtime costs, the administration costs, your marketing etc.. You see where this is leading: any organization will make its own definition of “non commercial”. By doing this governmental organizations, non-profit organizations, non-profitable companies and even commercial companies who are using our product for consultancy or are giving away some teaser for free would claim to be covered by the NC License. We have seen this!

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers
Helge

Von: [hidden email] [hidden email] Im Auftrag von Thomas Sattler
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 13. Oktober 2011 18:09
An: Thomas, Arden
Cc: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Arden,

Thanks for the reply.

I know that NC did not allow us to make money. But it allowed us to *attempt* to make money. It allowed us (IIRC) to build and deploy a web site in an attempt to make money. Once we get some revenue, then we could convert to a commercial license. The way I read it, this is not permitted any more. Can you confirm?

--Tom

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.
At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.
This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

Arden,

If I want to start a web site that I *hope* eventually will become revenue generating, I would like to develop it and roll it out without having to pay Cincom (since I have no revenues with which to pay). Once I get some revenues, I can convert it to a commercial license. But it sounds like this is not possible any more. Can you provide a "yes" or "no" answer on whether this would be permitted?

And how does making licenses more restrictive "protect" anyone?

--Tom

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>
Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

Our intent is to protect our commercial business (which employs a lot of Smalltalkers BTW) while allowing and encouraging learning, experimentation, personal use applications, and a vibrant community. We do no want to discourage anyone from building a CST application that manages and tracks their children's soccer team for example. We encourage it. Now if you decide to sell that application, you need a different license. Somewhere gray in-between? Talk to us.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas
    Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank" style="color: blue; text-decoration: underline; ">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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[hidden email]
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jarober

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by Dave Stevenson-3

On Oct 14, 2011, at 9:54 AM, Dave Stevenson wrote:

I worked at ParcPlace-Digitalk, ObjectShare, and Cincom for 12 years. And I still have no idea how much VisualWorks costs.

Dave Stevenson
[hidden email]

From: Tim Kack <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Cc: Steve Cline <[hidden email]>
Sent: Fri, October 14, 2011 8:48:04 AM
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Arden,

With the current unclear licensing model am I afraid to use VW.
It is clear that the license hurdle and the unclear pricing situation will not attract people to Smalltalk.
No grass root development will occur and contributions from open source developers will cease to happen.
Why would one contribute to a product with such unclear rules.
I realize that you business model is special, but you will only reach established businesses in the enterprise.
People that wants to show off their smalltalk (as in not developed in Java) application, football team webapp, Bottomfeeder Ultimate etc will need to choose GNU Smalltak, Squeak or Pharo or ... Java. In the long run will the current licenses for VW disappear and you will loose out on it.

I think that is really really bad business and what is worse is that with it will you take a large chunk of interest away from Smalltalk since VW is one of the few high performant Smalltalks out there.

I hope that Cincom rethinks this carefully because as it stand will my advocacy for VisualWorks stop right now. It is too unclear what it will cost or if it will cost.

Best regards,
Tim

On Oct 14, 2011, at 3:21 PM, Steve Cline wrote:

> Arden,
>
> In the specific case you mention (children's soccer team management, no
> revenue), can I give it away? Would each user need a personal use license?
>
> If it is a web based app, would each user need a personal use license?
>
> Do you have a button for "click here to get your almost painless I am not a
> developer but I just want to run this free app but to do so I must register
> not with the developer but with their technology provider personal use
> license"?
>
> As I understand the license, the answers are NO, YES, YES, and NO.
>
> Please tell me I am wrong.
>
> Steve Cline
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/Personal-Use-License-tp3851453p3904803.html
> Sent from the VisualWorks mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> vwnc mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

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Nowak, Helge

Re: Personal Use License

In reply to this post by jarober

Whether or not “a norm is set” is – by definition – when the majority of a community has agreed to follow it. I have good reason to doubt that this is the case with regards to a norm “using software is free of charge until money has been cashed in”.

Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von James Robertson
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2011 16:34
An: VWNC NC
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

On Oct 14, 2011, at 4:27 AM, Nowak, Helge wrote:

Sure, and IBM offers Eclipse for “free”. Interestingly enough I am dealing with prospects for new licenses that do fall in the category “startup” or “revenues below 1 Mio USD”…

Von: [hidden email] [hidden email] Im Auftrag von Henrik Høyer
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2011 10:12
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Helge wrote:

“Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.”

Henrik Høyer, sPeople Aps

[hidden email]

(+45) 4029 2092

Dear all,

</ disclaimer>

I won’t comment on any of the other topics and scenarios brought up. Yet from my personal point of view this one requires a direct answer. Tom, thanks for providing this example!

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers

Helge

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.

This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

_______________________________________________
vwnc mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.cs.uiuc.edu/mailman/listinfo/vwnc

Arden Thomas
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[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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James Robertson

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Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs (SNN)

Re: Personal Use License

http://www.microsoft.com/bizspark/Faqs.aspx#12

Why is Microsoft offering this program?

Microsoft believes that by helping startups succeed we’re helping to build a valued long-term partnership. Together we can build a more vibrant global software economy.

BizSpark helps startups by providing access to Microsoft software when you most need it and can least afford it, and by supporting the network of organizations—startup incubators, investors, advisors, government agencies—that are equally involved and invested in software-fueled innovation and entrepreneurship.

Is there any cost associated to joining the BizSpark program?

No. There is no cost associated with this program.

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nowak, Helge
Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 10:40 AM
To: James Robertson; VWNC NC
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Von: [hidden email] [hidden email] Im Auftrag von James Robertson
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2011 16:34
An: VWNC NC
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

On Oct 14, 2011, at 4:27 AM, Nowak, Helge wrote:

Sure, and IBM offers Eclipse for “free”. Interestingly enough I am dealing with prospects for new licenses that do fall in the category “startup” or “revenues below 1 Mio USD”…

Von: [hidden email] [hidden email] Im Auftrag von Henrik Høyer
Gesendet: Freitag, 14. Oktober 2011 10:12
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Helge wrote:

“Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.”

Henrik Høyer, sPeople Aps

[hidden email]

(+45) 4029 2092

Dear all,

</ disclaimer>

I won’t comment on any of the other topics and scenarios brought up. Yet from my personal point of view this one requires a direct answer. Tom, thanks for providing this example!

Being commercial or non commercial doesn’t depend on the success of your business but on your intent: making “an attempt to make money” is commercial. Nothing else can apply.

Cheers

Helge

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Arden Thomas <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Thomas;

I'm not sure I agree with your notion that anything has changed in respect to your scenario. NC did not allow you to make money from commercial use.

At the time of your first sale, you would need to have a valid license to do so. So pragmatically I'm not sure there is any difference there.

A point to make: It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

We make our commercial software available, free of charge, to learn, experiment with, and for personal use. I think this is a win-win.

This makes it less risky for you to approach a commercial endeavor, to use as a hobby, or just to be knowledgeable in Smalltalk for employment.

If there are special circumstances, please let us know. It is in our interest to see you be successful using our software.

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:33 AM, Thomas Sattler wrote:

2011/10/13 Arden Thomas <[hidden email]>

Hi Boris;

The idea of the Personal use license was to be simple and straightforward; I guess that is difficult anytime a license is involved, as you could always ask "what if". :-)

The NC license also had plenty of "what ifs" too. For example if you used VisualWorks to run a non-profit business, that is a commercial use, not non-commercial just because there is no profit.

IANAL so I will not attempt to address differences between the licenses.

hth

Regards

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

On Oct 13, 2011, at 11:03 AM, Boris Popov, DeepCove Labs wrote:

Arden,

Don’t take this the wrong way, but why can’t we all get an explanation in layman’s terms as to what the new license allows and how it is different from the previous non-commercial license?

-Boris

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 11:01 AM
To: Henrik Høyer
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Hi Henrik;

If you download the new software, you are using the new personal use license.

If you feel there is an issue with the new license for your usage, please contact us privately.

            Regards

            Arden Thomas

On Oct 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, Henrik Høyer wrote:

If I a VWNC license today, am I required to convert this to this new license?

<speoplelogo.png>
Henrik Høyer
Chief Software Architect
[hidden email] • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%204029%202092" target="_blank">(+45) 4029 2092
Tigervej 27 • 4600 Køge
www.sPeople.dk • <a href="tel:%28%2B45%29%207023%207775" target="_blank">(+45) 7023 7775

From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Arden Thomas
Sent: 13. oktober 2011 15:38
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [vwnc] Personal Use License

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;

We have had a few questions about the new personal use license, and are adding the statement below to our download page to help clarify the intent.

The intent of this license is to promote the learning and usage of Smalltalk by enthusiasts for their own personal use and experimentation.

If you are unsure, or have any questions about how you would like to use it, please send me an email or ask an account representative. It never hurts to ask.

hth

Regards

                      Arden Thomas
                      Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

"The Personal Use License is intended for usage by individuals of Cincom Smalltalk software for their own private access and use. Any other type of usage or any uncertainty regarding the applicability of the Personal Use license to specific usage, should be referred to your local Cincom representative for appropriate licensing"

On Sep 28, 2011, at 10:32 AM, Arden Thomas wrote:

Dear Cincom Smalltalk Community;
Please note that starting today, the download versions of ObjectStudio and VisualWorks have a new license; the “Personal Use” license.
We feel this license will be favorable to the current Evaluation license, and it better fits the needs of the community, contributors, and citizen developers using Cincom Smalltalk products. It makes it easy for someone to learn and become familiar with our technology.
The Cincom Smalltalk Community is important to Cincom, and we are pleased to let you know of this change to better support our community.
                           Regards
                           Arden Thomas
                           Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas
Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager
[hidden email]
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Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

Arden Thomas

Cincom Smalltalk Product Manager

[hidden email]

<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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<a href="tel:845%20296%200686" target="_blank">845 296 0686

Cincom Smalltalk - It makes hard things easier, the impossible, possible

"Simplicity is the Ultimate Sophistication" - Leonardo Da Vinci

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Jon Paynter-2

Re: Personal Use License

This "norm" of startup for free & pay later has been around a while. I first ran into it with an indie game engine I use. There is a small entry fee of $150 to get the "indie" version of their license. And so long as the income from your product is less than a a given amount your fine. but once your income grows above $250k, they require you to upgrade to a commercial license. They have been doing this since 2001.

...still anxiously waiting an official response from cincom

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