Hi all
I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? Stef _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Hi
Maybe it would be better to name it pharo-user(s) and leave this list for the developers of pharo? Because "beginner" has too narrow meaning. George 2009/12/30 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>: > Hi all > > I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success > since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. > So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Ok
(we are all beginners :) at least I'm :) ). On Dec 30, 2009, at 1:35 PM, George Herolyants wrote: > Hi > > Maybe it would be better to name it pharo-user(s) and leave this list > for the developers of pharo? Because "beginner" has too narrow > meaning. > > > George > > 2009/12/30 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>: >> Hi all >> >> I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success >> since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. >> So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
Hi Stef,
More than beginners, I would like mailing list for non-developers, i.e. bussines people, project managers/leaders, for discussing project feasibility with Pharo, sharing work experiences, etc. This mailing list would not contain discussions about the deep internals of Pharo (we cannot hide forever inside those technical details which nobody understands :). It is important for people with bussines or marketing vocabulary to know how to sell a product like Pharo to his coleagues or inside a company. Besides, there are a lot of people which doesn't like mailing lists. They simply won't subscribe and IMHO it has nothing to do with the technical quality of individuals, this is a matter of customs (check out all of those .Net/Java/SQL forums out there like codeguru.com or db4o.com). Maybe in the middle or long term, having a web forum would be a good idea. Regards, and happy new year. Hernán 2009/12/30 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>: > Hi all > > I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success > since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. > So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Hernán Morales Durand <hernan.morales@...> writes:
> Besides, there are a lot of people which doesn't like mailing lists. > They simply won't subscribe and IMHO it has nothing to do with the > technical quality of individuals, this is a matter of customs (check > out all of those .Net/Java/SQL forums out there like codeguru.com or > db4o.com). Maybe in the middle or long term, having a web forum would > be a good idea. Good point. For example, one thing we could do is pushing Stackoverflow. They have a large userbase and excellent google ranks. When you ask a question on SO, it appears *immediately* on google! For Phexample we already tell folks to go and ask questions on SO. No one has done sofar, but that is mainly due to the limited usebase (just me, Niko and Cami sofar). You can follow all questions with one tag on SO as an RSS feed http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/smalltalk http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/squeak http://stackoverflow.com/questions/tagged/pharo --AA _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
+1 for pharo-users mailing list. Excellent idea! On 30 Dec 2009, at 09:42, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Ok > (we are all beginners :) at least I'm :) ). > > > On Dec 30, 2009, at 1:35 PM, George Herolyants wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Maybe it would be better to name it pharo-user(s) and leave this list >> for the developers of pharo? Because "beginner" has too narrow >> meaning. >> >> >> George >> >> 2009/12/30 Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]>: >>> Hi all >>> >>> I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a >>> huge success >>> since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. >>> So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a >>> pharo-beginner mailing list? >>> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project -- Johan Fabry [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
+1
Its ok to separate the development of pharo from the use/promotion/welcome to Pharo. Just don't let this become a mess with dozens of lists with a couple of posts each. This won't help Pharo cohesion in the long term. Miguel Cobá On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi all > > I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success > since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. > So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
+1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. We don't loose nothing. Only the time will say if this was a good idea or not :)
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Miguel Cobá <[hidden email]> wrote: +1 _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions
Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is enough people. @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for Smalltalk. I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. 3min :) > We don't loose nothing. Only the time will say if this was a good idea or not :) > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Miguel Cobá <[hidden email]> wrote: > +1 > > Its ok to separate the development of pharo from the > use/promotion/welcome to Pharo. > > Just don't let this become a mess with dozens of lists with a couple > of posts each. This won't > help Pharo cohesion in the long term. > > Miguel Cobá > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Stéphane Ducasse > <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi all > > > > I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success > > since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. > > So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? > > > > Stef > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
How do we subscribe? On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > enough people. > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > Smalltalk. > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > 3min :) -- Johan Fabry [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, but after creating the list, I think you should also: - Send an ANN to this list, ESUG and even Squeak mailing lists. - Add that information to http://www.pharo-project.org/community - Add gmane and nabble bots to it - Some people can post in their blogs about it Cheers, Mariano
_______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
ok let us wait to get more feedback on the idea...
Stef On Dec 30, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote: > > How do we subscribe? > > On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > > enough people. > > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > > Smalltalk. > > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > > > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > > 3min :) > > Yes, but after creating the list, I think you should also: > > - Send an ANN to this list, ESUG and even Squeak mailing lists. > - Add that information to http://www.pharo-project.org/community > - Add gmane and nabble bots to it > - Some people can post in their blogs about it > > Cheers, > > Mariano > > > > -- > Johan Fabry > [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
yes ;) I was just explained why I said one hour :)
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: ok let us wait to get more feedback on the idea... _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
Is there a specific mailing list for the PBE readers? ifFalse: this could be a good place where the readers can ask :)
I saw [hidden email] but I am not sure what that mailing list it is about. Is it for final users of for the authors ? Cheers Mariano
On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote: yes ;) I was just explained why I said one hour :) _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
sbe discussion is a list so that people can report problems and discuss with us.
we have our own internal one for the books. Stef On Dec 30, 2009, at 7:57 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > Is there a specific mailing list for the PBE readers? ifFalse: this could be a good place where the readers can ask :) > I saw [hidden email] but I am not sure what that mailing list it is about. Is it for final users of for the authors ? > > Cheers > > Mariano > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:56 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote: > yes ;) I was just explained why I said one hour :) > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > ok let us wait to get more feedback on the idea... > > Stef > On Dec 30, 2009, at 6:39 PM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote: > > > > > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 6:29 PM, Johan Fabry <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > How do we subscribe? > > > > On 30 Dec 2009, at 14:09, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > > > > > My point is that some people may be bored by too technical discussions > > > Miguel I agree on the number of list. We should check if there is > > > enough people. > > > @Adrian: the forum idea is nice but I do not why it did not work for > > > Smalltalk. > > > I went to the site you mentioned but I could not get how it works. > > > > > >> +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. > > > 3min :) > > > > Yes, but after creating the list, I think you should also: > > > > - Send an ANN to this list, ESUG and even Squeak mailing lists. > > - Add that information to http://www.pharo-project.org/community > > - Add gmane and nabble bots to it > > - Some people can post in their blogs about it > > > > Cheers, > > > > Mariano > > > > > > > > -- > > Johan Fabry > > [hidden email] - http://dcc.uchile.cl/~jfabry > > PLEIAD Lab - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > [hidden email] > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
I come a little late for comment (hard day :-( ) so, I'll take profit of Stef's remarks to bring up an ancillary question to the group.
Letting out the humble inclusions of a lot of hot shot programmers as "beginners" and trying this from a Requirements Elicitation exercise: What will we consider a *beginner*? People that never learned a programming language and need tutoring in basics? People that know other programming languages? Being so shall separate the efforts to teach the ones that know OO from the ones are knowledgeable in procedural ones¹? People already knowing Smalltalk but new to Pharo? I feel that in addition to mailing list (and perhaps newsgroup), we should assemble a CMS for spreading the basics and using the features of the system to direct prospective users according to their needs/wishes. my 0.019999.... -- Cesar Rabak [1] This angst was triggered attending to a speech in Smalltalks 2009 Em 30/12/2009 10:42, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email] > escreveu: Ok (we are all beginners :) at least I'm :) ). On Dec 30, 2009, at 1:35 PM, George Herolyants wrote: > Hi > > Maybe it would be better to name it pharo-user(s) and leave this list > for the developers of pharo? Because "beginner" has too narrow > meaning. > > > George > > 2009/12/30 Stéphane Ducasse : >> Hi all >> >> I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success >> since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. >> So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by Mariano Martinez Peck
I _think_ it is a lot of hours of work. Once the mailing list starts, we'll to monitor it. With some periodicity we should assemble a FAQ, also because the proper nature of the list it is possible incorrect advice be posted by other members and we need to monitor and suggest the correct content as well.
Thinking in retrospect I believe this should be launched when we have Pharo 1.0 released and we can stabilize documentation, procedures, etc. my 0.019999... -- Cesar Rabak Em 30/12/2009 14:16, Mariano Martinez Peck < [hidden email] > escreveu: +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. We don't loose nothing. Only the time will say if this was a good idea or not :) On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Miguel Cobá <[hidden email]> wrote: +1 Its ok to separate the development of pharo from the use/promotion/welcome to Pharo. Just don't let this become a mess with dozens of lists with a couple of posts each. This won't help Pharo cohesion in the long term. Miguel Cobá On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi all > > I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success > since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. > So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by csrabak
On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:38 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > I come a little late for comment (hard day :-( ) so, I'll take profit of Stef's remarks to bring up an ancillary question to the group. > > Letting out the humble inclusions of a lot of hot shot programmers as "beginners" and trying this from a Requirements Elicitation exercise: > > What will we consider a *beginner*? everybody that want to be considered as - not knowing smalltalk - not knowing pharo - programming language learner. Stef > > People that never learned a programming language and need tutoring in basics? > > People that know other programming languages? Being so shall separate the efforts to teach the ones that know OO from the ones are knowledgeable in procedural ones¹? > > People already knowing Smalltalk but new to Pharo? > > I feel that in addition to mailing list (and perhaps newsgroup), we should assemble a CMS for spreading the basics and using the features of the system to direct prospective users according to their needs/wishes. > > my 0.019999.... > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > > [1] This angst was triggered attending to a speech in Smalltalks 2009 > > > Em 30/12/2009 10:42, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email] > escreveu: > > > Ok > (we are all beginners :) at least I'm :) ). > > > On Dec 30, 2009, at 1:35 PM, George Herolyants wrote: > >> Hi >> >> Maybe it would be better to name it pharo-user(s) and leave this list >> for the developers of pharo? Because "beginner" has too narrow >> meaning. >> >> >> George >> >> 2009/12/30 Stéphane Ducasse : >>> Hi all >>> >>> I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success >>> since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. >>> So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? >>> >>> Stef >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Pharo-project mailing list >>> [hidden email] >>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by csrabak
have a look at squeak -beginners people just ask questions and other reply.
it is low profile from an architecture point of view. On Dec 30, 2009, at 8:42 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > I _think_ it is a lot of hours of work. Once the mailing list starts, we'll to monitor it. With some periodicity we should assemble a FAQ, also because the proper nature of the list it is possible incorrect advice be posted by other members and we need to monitor and suggest the correct content as well. > > Thinking in retrospect I believe this should be launched when we have Pharo 1.0 released and we can stabilize documentation, procedures, etc. > > my 0.019999... > > -- > Cesar Rabak > > > > Em 30/12/2009 14:16, Mariano Martinez Peck < [hidden email] > escreveu: > > > +1 I would create it. It is not more than 1 hour or so of work. We don't loose nothing. Only the time will say if this was a good idea or not :) > > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:07 PM, Miguel Cobá <[hidden email]> wrote: > > +1 > > Its ok to separate the development of pharo from the > use/promotion/welcome to Pharo. > > Just don't let this become a mess with dozens of lists with a couple > of posts each. This won't > help Pharo cohesion in the long term. > > Miguel Cobá > > > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2009 at 5:41 AM, Stéphane Ducasse > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Hi all >> >> I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success >> since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. >> So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? >> >> Stef >> _______________________________________________ >> Pharo-project mailing list >> [hidden email] >> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >> > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse
I would strongly opt against a pharo beginners list. I think the squeak beginners list is the right place to be. To fork off the code from squeak was a good idea. But it is also troublesome as we experienced already. Forking off everything or just doubling everything won't bring any benefit. A beginner won't differ between squeak and pharo. A beginner stumples with this particular environment regardless if it is squeak or pharo. So please let us just try to join forces.
Norbert On 30.12.2009, at 12:41, Stéphane Ducasse wrote: > Hi all > > I remember that the squeak-beginner mailing-list (our ideas) was a huge success > since it enabled people to ask questions and have less mails. > So a question to you: do you think that it would be good to have a pharo-beginner mailing list? > > Stef > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > [hidden email] > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project _______________________________________________ Pharo-project mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project |
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