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Hello,
This is free software Darwin evolution :) If you like Pharo Smalltalk, and it looks like you like it, you need to find your place in the Pharo ecosystem and see where you can add value to the ecosystem. You seem to like advocating, so please continue! This is marketing for Pharo for free, and it can just add visibility or attraction to Pharo, and hopefully help to grow the community. Just be sure to use the right arguments. You like to punch from time to time in the Pharo community, for me it is ok, after all we should have thick skin and strong arguments when using Pharo and not a main stream language About direction of the Pharo development, I guess you already know the free software golden rule expressed by L. Torvalds: "Talk is cheap. Show me the code." So without revealing your own code contribution, your preach on development orientation are useless and you should not waste your time there, or at least not too much. I am myself not always happy with Pharo direction, but as a minor contributor I don't fell legitimate to punch that much, and I adapt myself. Continue on advocating! You will have more fun there. You could write in detail about success stories with Pharo. What about starting with Dr. Geo (http://drgeo.eu) and writing an article about it, I need help to get visibility, especially I am not a native English speaker. Thanks Hilaire Le 13/12/2015 06:10, horrido a écrit : > Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to > steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising > direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is > objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I > look for possible solutions. > > It is precisely because of limited funding and influence that a group such > as yours should be more creative and openminded in how to advance the cause > of Smalltalk. For example, I have no resources whatsoever, but in my own > way, I've tried hard to advocate for Smalltalk using a marketing strategy. I > use whatever is available to me /for free/. I publish articles that are > sometimes controversial, but always thought-provoking. *They draw attention > to Smalltalk.* They spur debate. Ultimately, the goal is to get people to > /think/ about Smalltalk. Otherwise, it gets forgotten. Out of sight, out of > mind. > > Okay, it's good that Pharo is being taught in some schools. But how many > schools are there in the world, and how many are NOT teaching Pharo? Look at > the United States and Canada, for example. Despite the evangelizing efforts > so far, the needle hasn't moved for Smalltalk. At least, not in any way > measurable to the public. At some point, one has to ask, "is this working?", > and if not, "how can we do things differently?" Why are you afraid to ask > these questions? > > Smalltalk is not a religion. The goal is not to conquer all programmers, nor > all programming tasks. But increasing the breadth of applicability so that > Smalltalk benefits more of the IT world is surely a worthy ambition. *Right > now, it's barely a blip on the radar of most businesses.* That can't be a > satisfactory state of affairs. > > In terms of this discussion, yes, size is everything. Smalltalk's library > ecosystem is demonstrably weak. (I dare you to ask me to provide an > example.) Why is this okay? A strong ecosystem would make Smalltalk/Pharo > much more useful to many more people in the IT world. > > And how do you build a strong ecosystem? By growing the user community > sufficiently large. We've seen this scenario play out over and over and over > again...with Python...with Java...with JavaScript...with Scala...and soon > with Go. That's why popularity matters. > > Please, I'm not attacking anyone. I'm trying to change the direction of an > ocean liner because I believe it's not moving in the right direction. > Obviously, this is a monumental task. > > One last point: If Stephan's Wardley maps have been used by Pharo recently, > then I submit they haven't had the desired effects. Unless Pharo's status > quo *is* the desired outcome, in which case, I find that sad. > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866783.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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In reply to this post by horrido
why don't you spend the time to write such mails into
- writing tutorial or - just improving class comments of the well-known classs (such as set, dictionary, booleans, strings), - create videos you would have already an impact. Now you are shouting in the desert and people will just put you on their black list. Stef |
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bingo !!! The problem is that there is so much hype about marketing thats easy to miss the enormous fact that languages like C, C++, Java and Python are not as popular as they are even with their big flaws without substance , without solving some serious problem that requires serious resources . Foremosts those languages have been evolving for decades , take Python +1.000.000.000 Let me repeat this... CPython IS 24 years OLD !!!! There is none smalltalk implementation that I am aware of that has been actively developed for so long even though smalltalk as a language is far older than that. And by the way Python had ZERO marketing , ZERO!!!! Zero funds, zero .... no money.... nada..... nothing Just one dude working his ass off to make a great language for scripting C projects. So in the end its all hard work, as it should be . On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 12:17 PM stepharo <[hidden email]> wrote: why don't you spend the time to write such mails into |
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In reply to this post by horrido
On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote:
> Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to > steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising > direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is > objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I > look for possible solutions. I see you trying to steer without situational awareness. The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and not helpful. Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy. I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps. It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can come from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software reengineering specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE for it, people dissatisfied with their current large community language, etc), make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be. Do the same for the people in our community (Researchers, independent developers, small group in a large high-tech company, legacy smalltalk group etc). To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use smalltalk, read Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for introducing new ideas Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm and possibly Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. Identify what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what changes to expect. Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and focus your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure impact, see what changed and repeat. Stephan |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Python has some books with animals on the cover. In the good old days, this mattered :-) Phil On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 11:45 AM, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote:
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea?
What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly, I am clueless, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley maps. "Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard choices? Whatever those choices are, the results speak for themselves. The IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ before they ever look to Pharo. I don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's working out well for Pharo.
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Okay, the timing of my post was off. Stephan already answered my question about Wardley maps. Good answer, by the way.
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In reply to this post by stepharo
I did write a Smalltalk tutorial: A Gentle Introduction to Amber. It's not as if Pharo needs one.
I'm prepared to write a Redline tutorial, if and when James Ladd gets around to completing Redline.
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
Just to say that Stephan expressed very eloquently my thoughts ! > On Dec 13, 2015, at 08:41, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote: > > On 13-12-15 06:10, horrido wrote: >> Rather than view my posts as accusatory, you should view them as trying to >> steer the collective thinking of a large group toward a more promising >> direction...which is exactly what they are. My analysis of the situation is >> objective, *not defamatory*. I see what's wrong with the status quo and I >> look for possible solutions. > > I see you trying to steer without situational awareness. > The great goal is clear, but there are bumps on the road and there is no direct road to Rome. Your analysis of the situation is superficial and not helpful. > > Marketing is most effective if it is aligned with strategy. > I was serious about you having to make those Wardley maps. > It all starts with user needs. Take a look at where new smalltalkers can come from (students, old smalltalkers using something else, software reengineering specialists, people from small languages who want an IDE for it, people dissatisfied with their current large community language, etc), make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their needs might be. Do the same for the people in our community (Researchers, independent developers, small group in a large high-tech company, legacy smalltalk group etc). > > To understand and explain why and when they might be persuaded to use smalltalk, read > Mary Lynn Manns & Linda Rising, Fearless Change, Patterns for introducing new ideas > Geoffrey A. Moore, Crossing the Chasm > and possibly > Mack Hanan & Peter Karp, Competing on Value > > From those user needs, make Wardley maps breaking down user needs in technology and community needs, making them more and more concrete. Identify what we support, where there are gaps and overlap, and what changes to expect. > > Then decide where you can with minimal effort have the most impact and focus your marketing message there, using a positive story. Measure impact, see what changed and repeat. > > Stephan > > > > > > ---> Save our in-boxes! http://emailcharter.org <--- Johan Fabry - http://pleiad.cl/~jfabry PLEIAD and RyCh labs - Computer Science Department (DCC) - University of Chile |
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In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3
That's an enormous amount of work!!!
 No wonder it hasn't been done yet.  I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of work into this, a great deal of sweat and tears. You have no idea. (Just ask David Buck of Simberon.) I'm only one person; I can only do so much by myself. And unfortunately, I'm coming to the end of the line.
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In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100:
> Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo application to android? what do i need, how do i start? i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the long term i would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any insights and starting points on how this is done. greetings, martin. -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/ |
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In reply to this post by horrido
Le 13/12/2015 15:13, horrido a écrit :
> I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) > interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the > Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of Did you check out what can be done for/with high school students with Dr. Geo, the Pharo interactive geometry application? Please take a look to the link below, in the second part of the document you have demos about interactive programming with Smalltalk to build mathematics models suited to senior high students http://forum.drgeo.eu/What-s-new-in-Dr-Geo-recently-tp4024786.html Many more fun models are easily do-able, but I am short in time there this recent months. Thanks Hilaire -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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In reply to this post by Martin Bähr
Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on Android thats great news. Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad mini as my Christmas present to myself :) On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin Bähr <[hidden email]> wrote: Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100: |
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For iPad, it is gone because I did not renew my developer license, so
Apple remove it from the store. Sorry sorry :( Concerning DrGeo on Android, I mostly forgot all the details to build it as I did not update it since a couple of years (3 years). Historically Dmitri Golubuvsky helped me a lot to build it [1]. But I don't think he's working on it anymore. Later Jannick Laval asked me how I did the DrGeo for android, he wanted to try for Pratch, he wrote some notes you may find useful [2] You may want to check the former source repository containing Android package for Dr. Geo, I just open its access for you [3] You may need the event VM glue code[4], not sure this is the most recent one. I am just writing from memory, so I may forget some key points. However, in the long term a lot will have change in Pharo on Android: - What I did was before Athens, I don't think Athens is working now on Android - Bloc will very likely replace Morph, and it may be the think to use for Android perspective. Hilaire [1] https://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/w/list [2] http://www.phratch.com/archives/408 [3] https://gforge.inria.fr/scm/browser.php?group_id=1308 [4] http://www.squeaksource.com/EventVM.html Le 13/12/2015 16:24, Dimitris Chloupis a écrit : > Yeah I am interesting to this too, I was not aware Dr. Geo was on > Android thats great news. > > Hilaire why I cannot find Dr. Geo for my iPad mini ? Just got an iPad > mini as my Christmas present to myself :) > > I would love to see a blog post by you how to get Pharo working on > Android and iOS . Any pointers ? > > On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 4:35 PM Martin Bähr > <[hidden email] > <mailto:[hidden email]>> > wrote: > > Excerpts from Hilaire's message of 2015-12-13 09:38:33 +0100: > > Dr. Geo has been ported to Android since alsmost 5 years > > is there any description about the process involved in porting a pharo > application to android? > what do i need, how do i start? > > i am tentatively working on a desktop application, that in the > long term i > would like to see on the mobile phone, and i'd appreciate any > insights and > starting points on how this is done. > > greetings, martin. > > -- > eKita - the online platform for your entire > academic life > -- > chief engineer > eKita.co > pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se > <http://pike.lysator.liu.se> caudium.net <http://caudium.net> > societyserver.org <http://societyserver.org> > secretary > beijinglug.org <http://beijinglug.org> > mentor > fossasia.org <http://fossasia.org> > foresight developer foresightlinux.org > <http://foresightlinux.org> realss.com > <http://realss.com> > unix sysadmin > Martin Bähr working in china > http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/ > -- Dr. Geo http://drgeo.eu http://google.com/+DrgeoEu |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Python was in the doldrums for the first 13 years of its life. Then, it exploded onto the scene in 2004 (according to TIOBE). Was this because of continuing improvements to CPython during those 13 years? Really?
JavaScript has been around since 1995, but what made it the darling of the web in the past 5 years? Hard work? What hard work? (Serendipitously, Google launched AngularJS in 2009. Maybe this was the impetus?) What about Ruby? Twenty years old, it only exploded onto the scene in 2006. What did Rubyists do in the first 11 years to cause this jump in popularity? If it all came down to hard work, then why didn't Haskell and Erlang and D rise to the top? Are those communities made of laggards and deadbeats? Of course, we should work hard to improve the platform. However, that by itself is no guarantee people will adopt it. Python's success was serendipitous, to be sure. To suggest that it was inevitable because of all the work done to improve CPython is not clear.
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In reply to this post by horrido
> kilon.alios wrote
>> I think that is why its difficult to bring pharo to diffirent platforms, >> the mentality of pharo and mentality of smalltalk is so specific that does >> not fit easily into other platforms. On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:45 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: > Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. > > This mentality says that "if you build it, they will come." Yes they are coming... http://consortium.pharo.org/ > Keep improving the platform and eventually people will find it. > **Or not.** You don't really care. (As an aside, **how** will they find it???) > This mentality sequesters Pharo within its boutique or clubhouse. The tool > is used only by a limited cadre of exuberant fans, and outsiders, while > they're welcome to join, *will not be missed if they go elsewhere*. > This mentality says that the *size* of the Pharo community is not especially > important. Big, small, or medium...you don't really care, as long as > *you're* having a good time with Pharo. The problem with this mentality is > that **a healthy library ecosystem is dependent upon a user community that > grows large enough to support it**. But fast growth also has its problems... https://www.groovehq.com/blog/scaling Particularly see point 1) "Scaling Shifts Your Team’s Focus" I believe Pharo is still in a stage where it needs a lot of agility. IF there was suddenly a large influx of newbies, then EITHER: * the experts spend *all* their time answering newbie questions and not moving the platform forward (with a wider pool of disruptive opinions) OR... * the newbies are ignored, get a bad experience, leave, and then "tell everyone else about it". Currently early adopters of Pharo get the benefit of great support from a direct line with the experts, which enhances their good experience which they can report to others. However it takes time to grow a community to have a range of middle experience levels to buffer the experts so they can continue to do *real* work to drive the platform forward. No matter how much you do on marketing, you can't get away from the reality that sustainable *community* growth takes time. > In other words, until the user community reaches **critical mass**, a strong > library ecosystem will not develop. Without a strong ecosystem, the breadth > of applicability to various problem domains is severely limited. But you don't reach critical mass until the library ecosystem is sufficient for the masses. Its catch-22. This "bring them and they will build it" has similar trouble as you concern against "build it and the will come". But if you can serve some limited domains very well, maybe you get enough funds to provide time to build a broader library ecosystem. http://www.inc.com/karl-and-bill/build-your-business-one-customer-at-a-time.html cheers -ben |
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This post was updated on .
"Fast growth has its problems." I don't think we need to worry about that.
 Even if we're successful with a marketing campaign, it will take time to aggregate substantial numbers of new Smalltalkers. It may take years to reach the top 20 on Redmonk. (We should be so lucky to have this problem.) Building an ecosystem is not about funding. Developers (and businesses) write new and useful libraries out of need when they choose to use your programming language. Ask yourself this: Smalltalk, in its various flavours, has been used commercially for more than three decades. After all this time, why are there still useful libraries missing, libraries that you find in the Java and Python worlds? Can you honestly tell me that over the next 5-10 years, we'll see the gaps in our library ecosystem filled in? I wouldn't bet my lunch money...
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In reply to this post by HilaireFernandes
Thank you very much , I will study them one by one :)
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 5:31 PM Hilaire <[hidden email]> wrote: For iPad, it is gone because I did not renew my developer license, so |
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Excerpts from Dimitris Chloupis's message of 2015-12-13 19:37:30 +0100:
> Thank you very much , I will study them one by one :) thank you from me too. i won't be able to work on this soon (need to get the desktop app ready first, which won't happen before the next GSoC, (but it might happen as part of it)) but i appreciate this information being available. greetings, martin. -- eKita - the online platform for your entire academic life -- chief engineer eKita.co pike programmer pike.lysator.liu.se caudium.net societyserver.org secretary beijinglug.org mentor fossasia.org foresight developer foresightlinux.org realss.com unix sysadmin Martin Bähr working in china http://societyserver.org/mbaehr/ |
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In reply to this post by horrido
On 13-12-15 15:13, horrido wrote:
> That's an *enormous* amount of work!!! No wonder it hasn't been done yet. Indeed.On the other hand, it doesn't need to be perfect. It is much better done in short iterations. The understanding comes from going through this process often and with many different people. Just try it with current java developers and try to identify a segment that would be interested in smalltalk, and see what story we should tell to get some people in that segment to try it out. > I did identify one thing: get high school students (i.e., young people) > interested in Smalltalk. That's why I tried (and failed) to launch the > Canadian Smalltalk Competition. You should understand that I put a LOT of > work into this, *a great deal of sweat and tears*. You have no idea. (Just > ask David Buck of Simberon.) The hope when improving situational awareness is to provide you with marketing opportunities that take less work (each). The amount of time and money that can be quickly spend on marketing is enormous. We are playing the long game, it is essential that you create enough small successes for yourself to stay motivated. Stephan |
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