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I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given an actual real-world enterprise customer whom I could interview to get the full story of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution, then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge marketing tool because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify with the story and see themselves following the same trajectory toward Smalltalk/Pharo.
Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference? 
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
Where do I get this?
I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to mobile devices. There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform that allows one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and iOS.
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I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's viability in the longer term.
 And the demand for cross-platform apps may not be as big as we believe...
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I've shipped several cordova/phonegap apps.
It can work for a certain level of simplicity - but browser based apps don't scratch my itch. I would be more interested in being able to develop a browser based app in Pharo and deploy it to a phone or tablet. > On Dec 13, 2015, at 17:13, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial > <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/amber-alert-we-can-do-mobile-apps-34b2d4d32731> > for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's > viability in the longer term. > |
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In reply to this post by kilon.alios
As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on
Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.". Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience. It's about an order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at present. On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: > Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. > > On Android its still a work in progress but its improving > > On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front > end (browser-javascript-html-css) > > So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of > Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev > list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year > to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too. > > For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she > can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants. > > Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I > created support for python, another dude created support for R programming > language who followed a similar approach to mine. > > But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other > programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that > happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for > mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make > Android apps and so forth. > > Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of > pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to > get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better > coding in other language . > > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero > <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Hello >> >> The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers >> will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. >> >> The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more >> extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is >> to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no >> phones nor phablets). >> >> Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero >> ________________________________ >> De: Dimitris Chloupis >> Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25 >> Para: Any question about pharo is welcome >> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM >> >> Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based >> languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont >> even make the top 20. >> >> I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not >> only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library >> out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far >> the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely >> alive. >> >> The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM >> or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to >> stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though >> both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. >> >> Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely >> active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides >> to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. >> >> And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort >> >> http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition >> >> I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement >> pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication >> bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. >> >> Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo >> with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to >> stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. >> >> Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. >> >> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >>> >>> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java >>> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will >>> most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both >>> languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) >>> >>> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android >>> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed >>> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. >>> Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be >>> well-suited. >>> >>> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe >>> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A >>> clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) >>> >>> I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java >>> cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on >>> Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. >>> >>> Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus >>> on putting Pharo on the JVM? |
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In reply to this post by tblanchard
Todd, have you investigated using Squeak/Pharo at the back-end and
Amber at the front end? That's where I'm currently targetting my development work. On 14 December 2015 at 01:59, Todd Blanchard <[hidden email]> wrote: > I've shipped several cordova/phonegap apps. > > It can work for a certain level of simplicity - but browser based apps don't scratch my itch. > I would be more interested in being able to develop a browser based app in Pharo and deploy it to a phone or tablet. > >> On Dec 13, 2015, at 17:13, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial >> <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/amber-alert-we-can-do-mobile-apps-34b2d4d32731> >> for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's >> viability in the longer term. >> > > |
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In reply to this post by horrido
In the realm of marketing, having a clear objective is key, to unlock
the artifact. Being a kid about it, to dig deeper into the inspirations of otexport LD_LIBRARY_PATH="/lib:/usr/lib:/usr/local/lib"hers, ignites it. The kindling, however, must be a positive mental attitude (as espoused by bad brains). Critique is great, but allowing emotions to get behind being negative, let's it run that way. What's positive? YOu can tell every new person that they add to the integrating capacity of a growing modern cloud meta system, with 9 layer stacks and clustered graphs of networked actors...real time. Go for the multi-objective genetic approaches, really and truly. That's the best AI. regards, robert On 12/13/2015 08:47 AM, horrido wrote: > Why is this "nonsense"? Are you saying it's not important to make Pharo > applicable to more problem domains? Are you saying that making Pharo useful > to more people in the IT community is a dumb idea? > > What am I missing in terms of situational awareness? Clearly, *I am > clueless*, because I don't understand what you're getting at with Wardley > maps. > > "Strategy means making choices." Are you suggesting that you've made hard > choices? Whatever those choices are, *the results speak for themselves*. The > IT community at large still ignores Smalltalk. Businesses are looking to > Java and JavaScript and Python and C++ /before/ they ever look to Pharo. I > don't know how you can deny this. I don't know how you can tell me it's > working out well for Pharo. > > > > Stephan Eggermont wrote >> On 12-12-15 22:45, horrido wrote: >>> Yes, the mentality of Pharo has not escaped my attention. >> ... >> >>> Why would you want to limit the breadth of applicability of a programming >>> language? Especially one that purports to be **general purpose**. >> Oh please, can you stop this nonsense? >> >> If you want to learn something about strategy, read the blog >> I posted earlier about, and create some Wardley maps for us. >> Your situational awareness is lacking. >> Strategy means making choices. >> >> Stephan > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866806.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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In reply to this post by EuanM
I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured,
communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react to that measure, like it's gambling. That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It is the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in control theory. Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something. regards, robert On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote: > As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on > Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already > run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.". > > Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience. It's about an > order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at > present. > > On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. >> >> On Android its still a work in progress but its improving >> >> On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) and front >> end (browser-javascript-html-css) >> >> So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the exception of >> Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In the dev >> list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for one year >> to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too. >> >> For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already posted he/she >> can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants. >> >> Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I >> created support for python, another dude created support for R programming >> language who followed a similar approach to mine. >> >> But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other >> programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application that >> happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for >> mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to make >> Android apps and so forth. >> >> Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every user of >> pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are ready to >> get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are better >> coding in other language . >> >> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero >> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Hello >>> >>> The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java programmers >>> will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. >>> >>> The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more >>> extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The advantage is >>> to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal tablets (no >>> phones nor phablets). >>> >>> Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero >>> ________________________________ >>> De: Dimitris Chloupis >>> Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25 >>> Para: Any question about pharo is welcome >>> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM >>> >>> Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based >>> languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since they dont >>> even make the top 20. >>> >>> I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM and not >>> only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any Java library >>> out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by very far >>> the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely >>> alive. >>> >>> The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested about JVM >>> or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language tend to >>> stick with their own language mainly because both Java and Javascript though >>> both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. >>> >>> Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is barely >>> active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that decides >>> to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. >>> >>> And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort >>> >>> http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort >>> >>> https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition >>> >>> I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to implement >>> pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a communication >>> bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python code. >>> >>> Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing pharo >>> with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people prefer to >>> stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. >>> >>> Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng <[hidden email]> >>> wrote: >>>> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month Java >>>> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, TIOBE will >>>> most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. (Both >>>> languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) >>>> >>>> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. Android >>>> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun to exceed >>>> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and Marshmallow. >>>> Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java seems to be >>>> well-suited. >>>> >>>> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. Maybe >>>> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to learn. A >>>> clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) >>>> >>>> I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java >>>> cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my hopes on >>>> Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. >>>> >>>> Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent to focus >>>> on putting Pharo on the JVM? |
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That's was it: sanguinity.
On 12/14/2015 12:18 AM, Robert Withers wrote: > I've always thought that squeak should have a set of measured, > communicated emotional layer, but inverted. Measure a positive number > that is better when it grows, instead of bad. The system could react > to that measure, like it's gambling. > > That would go in the half-layer of the 9 1/2 layer stack. The half is > nexxt to the eighth market/cloud layer, below the 9th meta layer. It > is the control layer. Every flow network needs a control layer in > control theory. > > Pi 2 or zero with some boards would be something. > > regards, > robert > > On 12/13/2015 11:48 PM, EuanM wrote: >> As a person who has posted video of Squeak and Pharo running on >> Raspberry Pi, I have to disagree with teh statement "Pharo can already >> run on ... Raspberry PI and works well.". >> >> Squeak works well on the Pi, in my experience. It's about an >> order-of-magnitude more responsive to user input than Pharo, at >> present. >> >> On 12 December 2015 at 11:51, Dimitris Chloupis >> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> Pharo can already run on iOS and Raspberry PI and works well. >>> >>> On Android its still a work in progress but its improving >>> >>> On web you can already can use pharo for both the backend (server) >>> and front >>> end (browser-javascript-html-css) >>> >>> So Pharo has already spread on all major platforms , with the >>> exception of >>> Android where there is still work to be done to make it usable. In >>> the dev >>> list there was already an announcement for hiring a developer for >>> one year >>> to work on the Android. So Android is a matter of time too. >>> >>> For anyone that really cares about JVM in general as I already >>> posted he/she >>> can take JNIPort and improve it anyway he/she wants. >>> >>> Its not hard to create support for other languages if one wants to. I >>> created support for python, another dude created support for R >>> programming >>> language who followed a similar approach to mine. >>> >>> But we all have personal reasons and needs for using pharo with other >>> programming languages, I use it to script Blender the 3d application >>> that >>> happens to use python as its scripting language, other may use R for >>> mathematical computations, other do web development, others want to >>> make >>> Android apps and so forth. >>> >>> Its impossible with such small community to fit the needs of every >>> user of >>> pharo or potential user, so it wont happen until like me you are >>> ready to >>> get your hands dirty to make Pharo work well for you. Else you are >>> better >>> coding in other language . >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:31 PM Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero >>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> Hello >>>> >>>> The question isn't how to implement Pharo in JVM. I know Java >>>> programmers >>>> will never use Pharo as I probably will never use Java. >>>> >>>> The question is to spread Pharo all over the platforms. And the more >>>> extended platform all over the world are IOS and Android. The >>>> advantage is >>>> to have Pharo not only the computer but also in our personal >>>> tablets (no >>>> phones nor phablets). >>>> >>>> Antonio J. Arrieta Cuartero >>>> ________________________________ >>>> De: Dimitris Chloupis >>>> Enviado: ‎12/‎12/‎2015 10:25 >>>> Para: Any question about pharo is welcome >>>> Asunto: Re: [Pharo-users] PharoJVM >>>> >>>> Of course the one thing that you fail to mention is that no JVM based >>>> languages (including Scala) can be called a popular language since >>>> they dont >>>> even make the top 20. >>>> >>>> I have personal experience with Python , Jpython is a port to JVM >>>> and not >>>> only that JPython is special in a way that not only can use any >>>> Java library >>>> out of the box but also has support for CPython libraries (which by >>>> very far >>>> the most popular python implementation out there) and still its barely >>>> alive. >>>> >>>> The irony is that in the end people that are mostly interested >>>> about JVM >>>> or JS are JS and JAVA coders mainly. Coders from other language >>>> tend to >>>> stick with their own language mainly because both Java and >>>> Javascript though >>>> both incredible big platforms they are both a huge mess. >>>> >>>> Redline was a good effort that now looks like abandonware. Amber is >>>> barely >>>> active. Those are common patterns for pretty much any language that >>>> decides >>>> to embrace JVM or JS as platforms. >>>> >>>> And you can use java libraries from Pharo via JNIPort >>>> >>>> http://www.smalltalkhub.com/#!/~JNIPort/JNIPort >>>> >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/jniport/project-definition >>>> >>>> I wanted to use python libraries from pharo , I did not go to >>>> implement >>>> pharo or port pharo to Cpython, all I did was to create a >>>> communication >>>> bridge via sockets and I did that in less that 100 lines of python >>>> code. >>>> >>>> Its easy , fast and simple. Nothing stops anyone from interfacing >>>> pharo >>>> with any popular platform or other language. The fact that people >>>> prefer to >>>> stick with pharo frameworks and libraries sends a clear message. >>>> >>>> Invest in Pharo , this is what our community is focused on. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:36 PM Richard Eng >>>> <[hidden email]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> According to TIOBE, which is hardly a reliable metric, this month >>>>> Java >>>>> and Python are enjoying a massive upswing in popularity. In fact, >>>>> TIOBE will >>>>> most likely name Java Programming Language of the Year for 2015. >>>>> (Both >>>>> languages have been on an upward trajectory all year.) >>>>> >>>>> It's not hard to understand why Java's popularity is improving. >>>>> Android >>>>> programming is becoming more important, as the platform has begun >>>>> to exceed >>>>> iOS in terms of user experience with the advent of Lollipop and >>>>> Marshmallow. >>>>> Then there's the rise of the "Internet of Things," where Java >>>>> seems to be >>>>> well-suited. >>>>> >>>>> (I'm not sure what explains Python's bump in popularity, though. >>>>> Maybe >>>>> there's an increasing appetite for languages that are easy to >>>>> learn. A >>>>> clean, simple syntax is very, very important!) >>>>> >>>>> I think, more than ever, we need to have Smalltalk on the JVM. Java >>>>> cannot be allowed to hog the limelight of IT. I was pinning my >>>>> hopes on >>>>> Redline, but I'm not sanguine about its future progress. >>>>> >>>>> Rather than waste time with PharoJS, wouldn't it be more prudent >>>>> to focus >>>>> on putting Pharo on the JVM? > |
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In reply to this post by horrido
http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-suite Norbert
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> On 14 Dec 2015, at 09:56, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > > Am 14.12.2015 um 00:50 schrieb horrido <[hidden email]>: > >> I think I asked this before (at the start of the year), but if I were given >> an actual real-world *enterprise* customer /whom I could interview/ to get >> the *full story* of how they came to use Smalltalk, especially if they were >> coming from a major language such as Java, and what their particular >> corporate issues were that compelled them to look for a better solution, >> then I could run with it and write a lengthy story highlighting the unique >> advantages of Smalltalk in solving these issues. It would be a huge >> marketing tool /because readers (hopefully, enterprise users) could identify >> with the story/ and see themselves following the same trajectory toward >> Smalltalk/Pharo. >> >> Perhaps somebody at ESUG or Pharo Consortium could provide such a reference? >> > http://m.v3.co.uk/v3-uk/news/1978739/jpmorgan-makes-smalltalk-development-suite If you need 'big names': https://gemtalksystems.com/about/customers/ especially the OOCL story is huge (i.e. world wide scale), http://www.gemstone.com/pdf/OOCL_SuccessStory.pdf Now, let's go back to work to make all this possible, it won't happen by itself (improving Pharo and filling all those missing libraries). > Norbert >> >> Stephan Eggermont wrote >>> make some persona for them so it gets easier to imagine what their >>> needs might be. >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866868.html >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
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In reply to this post by horrido
I think the market for cross-platform apps is large - but the market
for apps that you can't sell is small. Being able to sell the cross-platform apps via the iOS and Android app stores is key, imo. As it is, I target Nintendo 2DS & 3DS, and Blackberry tablet and all Windows as well as iPads, iPhones, Android phones and Android tablets. Bit I still hanker after Cordova just to target the iPhone store. Plus iPhone deals with web-sites awkwardly. You have to present as native, *or* the user has to bookmark each individual page they use. On 14 December 2015 at 01:13, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: > I thought so, too, which is why I wrote this tutorial > <https://medium.com/smalltalk-talk/amber-alert-we-can-do-mobile-apps-34b2d4d32731> > for app development. However, there is some question surrounding Amber's > viability in the longer term. > > And the demand for cross-platform apps may not be as big as we believe... > > > > tblanchard wrote >> Where do I get this? >> >> I have to say I kind of think Pharo is missing the boat with regards to >> mobile devices. There is a huge demand for a mobile development platform >> that allows one to write a mobile app that runs the same on Android and >> iOS. >> >>> On Dec 12, 2015, at 03:51, Dimitris Chloupis < > >> kilon.alios@ > >> > wrote: >>> >>> Pharo can already run on iOS > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/PharoJVM-tp4866633p4866874.html > Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > |
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In reply to this post by NorbertHartl
Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details! Most of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with so little content.
Is there anything else that provides substantial content???
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2015-12-14 13:57 GMT-03:00 horrido <[hidden email]>:
> Wow, the article about JPMorgan is extremely thin in terms of details! Most > of it is just marketing-speak. It's hard to write a meaningful piece with so > little content. > > Is there anything else that provides substantial content??? JP Morgan tried to replace most of their Smalltalk code since then, and after many failed attempts they migrated most of the Kapital system to Python, except for the exotics derivatives software, they failed on every attempt. It seems to be too complex and very well solved with the current implementation in Smalltalk. JPMC have thousands of developers and ~100 of them develop with Smalltalk on a VisualWorks+GemBuilder+GemStone/S software. Regards! Esteban A. Maringolo |
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Too bad JPMorgan didn't stick with Smalltalk. It seems that most of the big success stories come from the 1990s and perhaps early 2000s. It would be real nice to have a big success story from the last 10 years; otherwise, it's hard to counter the notion that Smalltalk is hardly used any more.
Given what I have to work with, I could only come up with this. It's a little apologetic, but what can I do?
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In reply to this post by horrido
what about haxe crosscompile language? |
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