Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and great IDE company, I got the following response (below) Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of Smalltalk? Rgs, James. >>Hello James. >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, I’m not sure Smalltalk has a big audience now. I’ve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk.>>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd <[hidden email]> wrote:
According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what "popular" means... Laurent
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Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE.
On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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JAjajaja,
It's not that Indexes are not trustable... They are measured in a way Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: - searches in yahoo - open source projects in some webs - people asking for job The only one that surprized me is the book's one. But 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books library :P. 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. Cheers On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont <[hidden email]> wrote: And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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On 6 December 2010 13:38, Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]> wrote:
> JAjajaja, > > It's not that Indexes are not trustable... They are measured in a way > Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: > > - searches in yahoo > - open source projects in some webs > - people asking for job > > The only one that surprized me is the book's one. But > 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books > library :P. > 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... > i think there is a lot of books because they are very complex ones :) for a smalltalk, you need just one book, and .. whooop .. you know it after few days of study. For C++ or Java it takes couple of months to learn all this stuff.. > Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. > > Cheers > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont <[hidden email]> > wrote: >> >> And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it >> seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. >> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont >> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd <[hidden email]> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and >>>> great IDE company, I got the >>>> >>>> following response (below) >>>> >>>> Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of >>>> Smalltalk? >>> >>> According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular >>> than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) >>> May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what >>> "popular" means... >>> Laurent >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Rgs, James. >>>> >>>> >>Hello James. >>>> >>>> >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, I’m not sure Smalltalk has a big >>>> >> audience now. I’ve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>>> >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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In reply to this post by jamesl
James,
The point of your post will surely be answered by other, and I'm sure you'll find good stuff in STIC and ESUG websites. However, the purpose of yours surprises me: why do you think that having "a popular and great IDE company" "supporting" Smalltalk is of any help? Decoupling the Smalltalk environment from the "IDE" will make a Frankenstein which will make the acronym 'IDE' look like an oxymoron... Regards, -- Cesar Rabak Em 06/12/2010 03:51, James Ladd < [hidden email] > escreveu: While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and great IDE company, I got the following response (below) Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of Smalltalk? Rgs, James. >>Hello James. >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, I’m not sure Smalltalk has a big audience now. I’ve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Guillermo Polito
Guillermo,
While all the criticisms of yours are correct, they do not change the reality. If you take some other sources like the inventory of systems benchmarked by companies specializing in this kind of job¹, or government inventories or even the ISBSG database, you'll find Smalltalk use (which relates to 'popularity') is residual in any realm. In fact, Gartner issued some years ago a research note² and classified languages according to a "A Life-Cycle Maturity Matrix". Recently James Robertson from Cimcon managed to have Gartner to write (in a blog, however, no "Research") flattering things about Smalltalk in a context of dynamic languages. Regards, -- Cesar Rabak [1] Not so blatant advice: I used to work for Gartner and now I represent SPR. [2] TU-05-1942 "Life-Cycle Strategies for Legacy Languages", J. Duggan, Gartner, Stamford, CT, 1998. Em 06/12/2010 10:38, Guillermo Polito < [hidden email] > escreveu: JAjajaja, It's not that Indexes are not trustable... They are measured in a way Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: - searches in yahoo - open source projects in some webs - people asking for job The only one that surprized me is the book's one. But 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books library :P. 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. Cheers On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont <[hidden email]> wrote: And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont <[hidden email]> wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd <[hidden email]> wrote: While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and great IDE company, I got the following response (below) Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of Smalltalk? According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what "popular" means... Laurent Rgs, James. >>Hello James. >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, I’m not sure Smalltalk has a big audience now. I’ve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
Igor,
My perceived experience in project we used freshmen from a University to work in Smalltalk for the Spatmas platform, was a little different. The persons needed about the same than the Java colleagues (which worked in a complimentary part of the project) to become proficient and productive in Smalltalk. We Smalltalkers take sometimes at face value certain things that clash in real world: the famous simplicity of the syntax (which Stef's famous postcard example) of Smalltalk is completely flared by the overwhelming complexity of the class libraries. Contrary to current belief, out of the core libraries (specially the Collection hierarchy) most of the remaining packages are not that elegant or orthogonal enough to preclude the need for digging and learning from experience, which takes as much time as any other language. As soon we get at the need to build production grade systems, we find Smalltalks advantages are not enough to make us stand out of the crowd. my 0.019999... -- Cesar Rabak Em 06/12/2010 10:44, Igor Stasenko < [hidden email] > escreveu: On 6 December 2010 13:38, Guillermo Polito wrote: > JAjajaja, > > It's not that Indexes are not trustable... They are measured in a way > Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: > > - searches in yahoo > - open source projects in some webs > - people asking for job > > The only one that surprized me is the book's one. But > 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books > library :P. > 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... > i think there is a lot of books because they are very complex ones :) for a smalltalk, you need just one book, and .. whooop .. you know it after few days of study. For C++ or Java it takes couple of months to learn all this stuff.. > Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. > > Cheers > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont > wrote: >> >> And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it >> seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. >> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont >> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and >>>> great IDE company, I got the >>>> >>>> following response (below) >>>> >>>> Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of >>>> Smalltalk? >>> >>> According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular >>> than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>> But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) >>> May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what >>> "popular" means... >>> Laurent >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Rgs, James. >>>> >>>> >>Hello James. >>>> >>>> >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, I’m not sure Smalltalk has a big >>>> >> audience now. I’ve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>>> >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ >> > > -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
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In reply to this post by csrabak
To add a little of data to anecdote, let me put two complimentary pointers: Talks about the "The US Department of Defense has decided to discontinue the development, maintenance, and –use- of JAS (nee JWARS) by year end. JAS is a joint campaign model, (one that represents all the services), consisting of over 1.1 million lines of Smalltalk that has been developed over the last 15 years at a cost to the taxpayers north of $110 million." Further details: http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?enc_user=gNSEzw8AAADszNgJiajay96Y7oEQONQG About Gartner's affirmations (ten years old!) http://groups.google.com/group/ibm.software.vasmalltalk/browse_thread/thread/6260484c776e83b5/23712440b7edae4d?lnk=gst&q=migration+VASmalltalk# And a case study of a company that decided _not_ switch from Smalltalk after tried to go java: http://www.nycsmalltalk.org/2009/11/return-to-smalltalk/ HTH to enlighten our discussions on these matters. -- Cesar Rabak Em 06/12/2010 14:27, [hidden email] escreveu: Guillermo, While all the criticisms of yours are correct, they do not change the reality. If you take some other sources like the inventory of systems benchmarked by companies specializing in this kind of job¹, or government inventories or even the ISBSG database, you'll find Smalltalk use (which relates to 'popularity') is residual in any realm. In fact, Gartner issued some years ago a research note² and classified languages according to a "A Life-Cycle Maturity Matrix". Recently James Robertson from Cimcon managed to have Gartner to write (in a blog, however, no "Research") flattering things about Smalltalk in a context of dynamic languages. Regards, -- Cesar Rabak [1] Not so blatant advice: I used to work for Gartner and now I represent SPR. [2] TU-05-1942 "Life-Cycle Strategies for Legacy Languages", J. Duggan, Gartner, Stamford, CT, 1998. Em 06/12/2010 10:38, Guillermo Polito < [hidden email] > escreveu: JAjajaja, It's not that Indexes are not trustable... They are measured in a way Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: - searches in yahoo - open source projects in some webs - people asking for job The only one that surprized me is the book's one. But 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books library :P. 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. Cheers On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont wrote: And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont wrote: On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd wrote: While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and great IDE company, I got the following response (below) Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of Smalltalk? According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what "popular" means... Laurent Rgs, James. >>Hello James. >>About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, I’m not sure Smalltalk has a big audience now. I’ve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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In reply to this post by csrabak
But by the time I was "proficient and productive in Smalltalk," I had mastered the equivalent of an OS! From threading, to windows, the main event loop - all things that were magically behind the scenes in C, C++, and even Ruby to an extent (which at the outer GUI level was down in the same mess). Whereas, it really did take only one reading to grok the syntax. The fact that mastering anything takes time - is orthogonal to the book issue. The majority of books I came across in C++ (and needed copies of in every office I worked, to the point where I got a $50 a month Safari books subscription) were related to the language, not the libraries - full of tips, gotchas, and other advice to not trip over the complexities of the language itself - before even considering the first library! The ease of use of a library is a function of the design skill of the library developers. But I bet you it was much easier to *write* that library than it would have been in a static language in a non-live environment ;-) Sean
Cheers,
Sean |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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In reply to this post by Igor Stasenko
This kind of view is nice as a joke, but I also think it tends to be counter productive. We should not kid ourselves. There are so many books because there is a market large enough to consume them.
Cheers, Doru On 6 Dec 2010, at 13:44, Igor Stasenko wrote: > On 6 December 2010 13:38, Guillermo Polito <[hidden email]> wrote: >> JAjajaja, >> >> It's not that Indexes are not trustable... They are measured in a way >> Smalltalk will never be recognized as popular: >> >> - searches in yahoo >> - open source projects in some webs >> - people asking for job >> >> The only one that surprized me is the book's one. But >> 1) the data is not taken from amazon and I don't know this Powell's Books >> library :P. >> 2) It's true that there is a stupid amount of java, c#, c++ books... >> > > i think there is a lot of books because they are very complex ones :) > for a smalltalk, you need just one book, and .. whooop .. you know it > after few days of study. > For C++ or Java it takes couple of months to learn all this stuff.. > > >> Maybe we can think a not so stupid index. >> >> Cheers >> >> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 4:12 AM, laurent laffont <[hidden email]> >> wrote: >>> >>> And I've just seen the bottom of the message :), it >>> seems http://langpop.com/ agree with TIOBE. >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 8:09 AM, laurent laffont >>> <[hidden email]> wrote: >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 6:51 AM, James Ladd <[hidden email]> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> While pleading for Smalltalk support with a developer from a popular and >>>>> great IDE company, I got the >>>>> >>>>> following response (below) >>>>> >>>>> Is there anything I can do/show to prove or disprove the popularity of >>>>> Smalltalk? >>>> >>>> According to TIOBE, Smalltalk is as popular as Erlang and more popular >>>> than Scala http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html >>>> But that's only numbers and I don't trust it :) >>>> May be your developer from a "popular" IDE company should define what >>>> "popular" means... >>>> Laurent >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Rgs, James. >>>>> >>>>>>> Hello James. >>>>> >>>>>>> About Smalltalk plugin. Weel, I’m not sure Smalltalk has a big >>>>>>> audience now. I’ve never heard about commercial products based on Smalltalk. >>>>>>> Here, some statistics http://langpop.com/ >>> >> >> > > > > -- > Best regards, > Igor Stasenko AKA sig. > -- www.tudorgirba.com "Presenting is storytelling." |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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On 6 December 2010 21:22, Tudor Girba <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This kind of view is nice as a joke, but I also think it tends to be counter productive. We should not kid ourselves. There are so many books because there is a market large enough to consume them. > No, but you know, books about Java or C++ dedicating a full chapters explaining classes, visibility rules, constructors, destructors, virtual functions, templates or <generics> and all things related to that. A lot of wasted paper (where the Green Peace looking? ;)) And now take the smalltalk at the other side. What we have? Just classes and methods. Simple rules. End. So, at the day when one student finish learning the basics of java or C++, a student who decided to learn smalltalk will finish learning a standard class library basics, and will be ready to go with first coding attempts. While Java/C++ student will still be 2 or 3 chapters away from finishing with basic language concepts and rules. It is a lot of time for reading, not mentioned about how much time it takes to comprehend and understand all the concepts and remember them. Yes, maybe its a bigger market. But i know a good way to learn something: write a description (book) of it. So it looks like many people wanting to learn C++ or Java so bad, that they start writing a books about it. Good for them. Good for readers. Bad for Green Peace :) > Cheers, > Doru -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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In reply to this post by jamesl
Hi James,
a good list of enterprise projects is here http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=successes. The high-lights are JP Morgan, and Texas Instruments/Adventa. But also try and dig up stuff on OOCL's ISIS 2 shipping app and Deutche Bahn's schduling application (computes schedules for the entire German railway system).
If you dig you'll find lots of enterprise applications written in Smalltalk. When I started working for ParcPlace Systems companies like JPMorgan didn't allow us to name then since using Smalltalk was such an important competitive advantage. That shot a lot of feet, indiscriminately amongst both corporate user and vendo aliker.
On Sun, Dec 5, 2010 at 9:51 PM, James Ladd <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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On 6 December 2010 23:22, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi James, > a good list of enterprise projects is > here http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=successes. > The high-lights are JP Morgan, and Texas Instruments/Adventa. But also try > and dig up stuff on OOCL's ISIS 2 shipping app and Deutche Bahn's schduling > application (computes schedules for the entire German railway system). > If you dig you'll find lots of enterprise applications written in Smalltalk. > When I started working for ParcPlace Systems companies like JPMorgan didn't > allow us to name then since using Smalltalk was such an important > competitive advantage. That shot a lot of feet, indiscriminately amongst > both corporate user and vendo aliker. > It reminds me the fisherman, who i met once on the lake, and when i said that i came here just for one day as a guest of my really far relatives, then he smiled and started saying everything about fishing, and saying that at his place, a fish catching goes like on conveyor, but for all people who passed by, he was making a bored face and saying that , ohhh.. no fish damn it.. no fish.. bad place, reaallyy bad one :) -- Best regards, Igor Stasenko AKA sig. |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: On 6 December 2010 23:22, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote: it's great for the fisherman, but really bad for the bait shop... :) :( :/ best Eliot
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Sorry if I'm late on this thread, only wanted to say that lot of times
in similar discussions I said that "fortunately" Smalltalk is not very popular (In terms that not tons of people and companies are using it). Each one can make its own interpretation :) Just my 0,02. 2010/12/6 Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]>: > > > On Mon, Dec 6, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Igor Stasenko <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> On 6 December 2010 23:22, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote: >> > Hi James, >> > a good list of enterprise projects is >> > >> > here http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/cincom/blogView?content=successes. >> > The high-lights are JP Morgan, and Texas Instruments/Adventa. But also >> > try >> > and dig up stuff on OOCL's ISIS 2 shipping app and Deutche Bahn's >> > schduling >> > application (computes schedules for the entire German railway system). >> > If you dig you'll find lots of enterprise applications written in >> > Smalltalk. >> > When I started working for ParcPlace Systems companies like JPMorgan >> > didn't >> > allow us to name then since using Smalltalk was such an important >> > competitive advantage. That shot a lot of feet, indiscriminately >> > amongst >> > both corporate user and vendo aliker. >> > >> That's kind of fun. >> It reminds me the fisherman, who i met once on the lake, >> and when i said that i came here just for one day as a guest of my >> really far relatives, then he smiled >> and started saying everything about fishing, and saying that at his >> place, a fish catching goes like on conveyor, >> but for all people who passed by, he was making a bored face and >> saying that , ohhh.. no fish damn it.. no fish.. >> bad place, reaallyy bad one :) > > it's great for the fisherman, but really bad for the bait shop... > :) :( :/ > best > Eliot > >> >> -- >> Best regards, >> Igor Stasenko AKA sig. >> > > |
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In reply to this post by Sean P. DeNigris
Em 06/12/2010 17:35, Sean P. DeNigris < [hidden email] > escreveu: > csrabak wrote: > > e persons needed about the same than the Java colleagues (which > > worked a complimentary part of the project) to become proficient > > and productive in Smalltalk. by the time I was "proficient and > > productive in Smalltalk," I had > > ered the equivalent of an OS! From threading, to windows, the main > > t loop - all things that were magically behind the scenes in C, > > C++, and > > Ruby to an extent (which at the outer GUI level was down in the > > same ). Whereas, it really did take only one reading to grok the > > syntax. > > Well, comparing C, even C++ which normally hasn't automatic garbage collection, is somewhat stretching the argument... but; even with those "idiosyncrasies" as soon the size of the application grows up, these perks of Smalltalk quickly become less noticeable, while on the other hand the fact Smalltalk being dynamic dispatched takes its toll in the needing of programmers attention to avoid the attribution of wrong objects to instance variables as there is no type checking... > csrabak wrote: > > Smalltalkers take sometimes at face value certain things that > > clash > > in al world: the famous simplicity of the syntax (which Stef's > > famous stcard example) of Smalltalk is mpletely flared by the > > overwhelming complexity of the class libraries. > > > fact that mastering anything takes time - is orthogonal to the book > e. The majority of books I came across in C++ (and needed copies of > in y office I worked, to the point where I got a $50 a month Safari > books cription) were related to the language, not the libraries - > full of , gotchas, and other advice to not trip over the > complexities of the uage itself - before even considering the first > library! Sean, once you really get to metal subtleties and other nuances on the language and syntax appear to bug your team. Have you ever heard of John McSweeney's "Smalltalk ‘Traps’" piece¹? > ease of use of a library is a function of the design skill of the > ary developers. But I bet you it was much easier to *write* that ary > than it would have been in a static language in a non-live ronment > ;-) While the libraries are for 'endogenous' use, yes, as soon we need to have functionality to put our apps in the same stand as the other technologies are right now, the issues start to become all the same... And them the advantages of Smalltalk as platform vanishes against ones more coupled to present technology. Have you tried to automate an Office application with any flavor of Smalltalk lately? Did you see the thread "Is there a good example of an app using SqueakDBX to output data?" All the simplicity of Smalltalk is lost as soon you need to fit the square peg in the round hole... :-| my 0.019999... -- Cesar Rabak [1] http://www.jmcsweeney.co.uk/computing/m206/traps.doc |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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2010/12/7 <[hidden email]> Sean, once you really get to metal subtleties and other nuances on the -- Dennis Schetinin |
Re: Popularity or not of smalltalk?
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Administrator
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In reply to this post by csrabak
This is fun! Thanks for the discussion...
[ sean isOnChair ] whileTrue: [ sean laugh ]. 7 pages! (actually 6.5 - with embedded images) That actually proves my point vs. entire textbooks ;-) Not to mention that: * the first page and a half's examples are trivial and not exactly "traps" (the fact that self is implicitly returned) * the "10 + (10 negated) negated" "trap" executes intuitively and correctly in Squeak * the example of changing a loop while iterating with do: seems like C++ code translated literally into Smalltalk * the last 1.5 pages are totally contrived (and use global variables which are discouraged anyway; I haven't had to use one yet) - yes, if you *want* to screw up the system, you can: #right basicAt: 1 put: 119; basicAt: 2 put: 114; basicAt: 3 put: 111; basicAt: 4 put: 110; basicAt: 5 put: 103. #right An equivalent argument is: if you hit your laptop repeatedly with a bat, it will not work regardless of what programming language you were using, so you might as well pick any Well, that's just the point, isn't it? We're talking about language popularity and those are #2 and #3 on the TIOBE index. I've been using Smalltalk for less than a year, but I'm already more productive by far than in C, C++, or even Ruby, and haven't hit that limit writing software for small businesses. If there is a size at which the benefit lessens, isn't it more likely caused by poor design/devs or any number of factors (don't most large projects fail)? It can't be the same or worse to use a poor library in a dynamic live environment. I recently wrote a simple Ruby bridge and found it liberating to deal with the library in the Smalltalk tools rather than in Ruby's code/run cycle. I have never encountered this and I've often heard it said by dynamic language experts to be mostly static language paranoia. What is the evidence that this becomes a severe problem in real-life dynamic systems? Sean
Cheers,
Sean |
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In reply to this post by jamesl
Thank you all for the pointers. Luckily the IDE company has promised to write a plugin for Smalltalk this Janurary.
For me, the initial plugin may not be what Smalltalkers like but over time I'm going to enhance it to give the same functionality as the current Code Browser. My goal is to bring more people to Smalltalk and if that means a few changes to what an 'old school' smalltalkers expect, then I am ok with that. Rgs, James. |
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