Question about primitives

 
Hi folks. Disusing with a friend, he asked me if Squeak was completely written in itself (actually, SLANG). I think (I am not sure) that some parts of the VM as Interpreter, ObjectMemory, and most primitives are written in SLANG and then using VMMaker I can convert from that to C. Ok.....but...I think I heard that there are primitives that are directly written in C (not SLANG, no translation).  Is this true ?

If true, how can be that addressed ? where is the C code of that? because, I take VMMaker, I convert to C, then compile, install and I have a working VM. So...that C code must come somewhere...where is it ? how can I know if a primitive is written in SLANG or directly in C?

I hope someone can help this newbie :)

Thanks in advance,

Mariano

 

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote:

 
Hi folks. Disusing with a friend, he asked me if Squeak was completely written in itself (actually, SLANG). I think (I am not sure) that some parts of the VM as Interpreter, ObjectMemory, and most primitives are written in SLANG and then using VMMaker I can convert from that to C. Ok.....but...I think I heard that there are primitives that are directly written in C (not SLANG, no translation).  Is this true ?

If you look at the blue book and its definition of what Smalltalk-80 is then all of that except lower-level window management (creating the window in which Squeak appears, collecting events from the GUI), and image I/O (reading and writing the image to and from the snapshot file) is entirely written in Slang and can be run as a simulation.  But go beyond that to the large array of primitives for sound, video and so on and lots of the Slang code for the primitives is merely a wrapper around some library that actually implements the functionality.

If true, how can be that addressed ? where is the C code of that? because, I take VMMaker, I convert to C, then compile, install and I have a working VM. So...that C code must come somewhere...where is it ? how can I know if a primitive is written in SLANG or directly in C?

As far as I'm aware all primitives are written in Slang, even if they're simply wrappers.  But if you look in the files in 

    platforms/{Cross,Mac OS,unix}/plugins/FooPlugin

you'll find cross-platform and platform-specific support code for each plugin (a plugin being a related suite of primitives),

and look in the src tree for plugins and extplugins and look in their subdirectries you'll find all the generated Slang plugin code.

A better place to look is in VMMaker using the browser.  There you'll see different kinds of primitive from things like GeniePlugin where all the code is written in Slang to SocketPlugin where all the code is merely wrappers around platform-specific support code.

HTH

Eliot

I hope someone can help this newbie :)

Thanks in advance,

Mariano

 

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck <[hidden email]> wrote:

 
Hi folks. Disusing with a friend, he asked me if Squeak was completely written in itself (actually, SLANG). I think (I am not sure) that some parts of the VM as Interpreter, ObjectMemory, and most primitives are written in SLANG and then using VMMaker I can convert from that to C. Ok.....but...I think I heard that there are primitives that are directly written in C (not SLANG, no translation).  Is this true ?

If you look at the blue book and its definition of what Smalltalk-80 is then all of that except lower-level window management (creating the window in which Squeak appears, collecting events from the GUI), and image I/O (reading and writing the image to and from the snapshot file) is entirely written in Slang and can be run as a simulation.  But go beyond that to the large array of primitives for sound, video and so on and lots of the Slang code for the primitives is merely a wrapper around some library that actually implements the functionality.

Thanks Eliot for the explanation. This is new for me so I will be learning and bothering for a while ;)
 

If true, how can be that addressed ? where is the C code of that? because, I take VMMaker, I convert to C, then compile, install and I have a working VM. So...that C code must come somewhere...where is it ? how can I know if a primitive is written in SLANG or directly in C?

As far as I'm aware all primitives are written in Slang, even if they're simply wrappers.  But if you look in the files in 

    platforms/{Cross,Mac OS,unix}/plugins/FooPlugin

you'll find cross-platform and platform-specific support code for each plugin (a plugin being a related suite of primitives),

perfect, I got it and I could see it :)

 

and look in the src tree for plugins and extplugins and look in their subdirectries you'll find all the generated Slang plugin code.

I didn't find this. I guess you are talking about the src folder where VMMaker put the genereated code, however, I couldn't make it work yet (after I tell you the problem)

 

A better place to look is in VMMaker using the browser.  There you'll see different kinds of primitive from things like GeniePlugin where all the code is written in Slang to SocketPlugin where all the code is merely wrappers around platform-specific support code.

I saw it! Thanks...much clear now.   I have, however, a couple of problems/questions:

- I couldn't compile in VMMaker as I have the error: "MacOSPowerPCOS9VMMaker could not find directory for: Mac OS specific files; is the platform root path set correctly?"   However, I have correctly set the path. I attach a screenshot of the pharo image and the output of a console.
Do you know what the problem can be ?

- can I download a "standard" VMMaker configuration from somewhere?  

 
- shouldn't be a good idea every time a new official VM is done, to save the configuration into a .config file and to include it in the zip ?  So that I can reproduce it and know what was done :)

- is there a way to know which are the "core" plugins ? I mean, suppose I want to deploy an application, do you know more or less which plugins will be VERY likely to be needed ?   For example, I guess I don't need CroquetPlugin or FFI if I don't use it in my app, but FilePlugin for example, I guess it is needed even to bootstrap (maybe I am wrong, it is just an example).
What I am trying to do is to see how can I create the minimal "production" vm according to my needs.

- I know nothing about SLANG, but something surprised me:  "self"  referes directly to the C function name ?
For example, in SocketPlugin >> primitiveResolverAddressLookupResult    it does:
"sz := self sqResolverAddrLookupResultSize."

and sqResolverAddrLookupResultSize is the name of the C function of the plugin. WOWWW!!!

Thanks for all the help.

Mariano

HTH

Eliot

I hope someone can help this newbie :)

Thanks in advance,

Mariano

 

A better place to look is in VMMaker using the browser.  There you'll see different kinds of primitive from things like GeniePlugin where all the code is written in Slang to SocketPlugin where all the code is merely wrappers around platform-specific support code.

I saw it! Thanks...much clear now.   I have, however, a couple of problems/questions:

- I couldn't compile in VMMaker as I have the error: "MacOSPowerPCOS9VMMaker could not find directory for: Mac OS specific files; is the platform root path set correctly?"   However, I have correctly set the path. I attach a screenshot of the pharo image and the output of a console.
Do you know what the problem can be ?

The directory the  MacOSPowerPCOS9VMMaker expects is called 'Mac OS' not MacOS or Macos or...  So either change it to expect MacOS or move or copy your platforms subdirectory from platforms/MacOS to 'platforms/Mac OS'.

- can I download a "standard" VMMaker configuration from somewhere?  

John and David are the experts here.  I have a decidedly non-standard configuration (for the time being) and so am of no help.

 

 
- shouldn't be a good idea every time a new official VM is done, to save the configuration into a .config file and to include it in the zip ?  So that I can reproduce it and know what was done :)

Uh, yes :)

 

- is there a way to know which are the "core" plugins ? I mean, suppose I want to deploy an application, do you know more or less which plugins will be VERY likely to be needed ?   For example, I guess I don't need CroquetPlugin or FFI if I don't use it in my app, but FilePlugin for example, I guess it is needed even to bootstrap (maybe I am wrong, it is just an example).
What I am trying to do is to see how can I create the minimal "production" vm according to my needs.

I don't know of any proper list.  But these are excellent questions.  I think we do need a core list and as we work towards a kernel image we should try and arrange that those primitives needed by things loaded into the core image but not needed by the kernel image itself are available as external plugins, with notable exceptions such as the core graphics.  Having a more modular VM should make it easier to configure, not more difficult, because the core VM will be a simpler leaner more known quantity and plugins will be freer to evolve with the packages that they support.

 

- I know nothing about SLANG, but something surprised me:  "self"  referes directly to the C function name ?
For example, in SocketPlugin >> primitiveResolverAddressLookupResult    it does:
"sz := self sqResolverAddrLookupResultSize."

and sqResolverAddrLookupResultSize is the name of the C function of the plugin. WOWWW!!!

Yes, in Slang the receiver is elided, except for sends to the interpreterProxy.  There is effectively only one receiver in the main VM, the VM itself, and C has no concept of the receiver, so Slang just deletes it, or converts interpreterProxy foo: arg info interpreterProxy->foo(arg).

You'll see some implementations of the C functions in the InterpreterSimulator and in subclasses of various plugins that simulate those plugins (e.g. look at subclasses of the FilePlugin).

 

Thanks for all the help.

Mariano

HTH

Eliot

I hope someone can help this newbie :)

Thanks in advance,

Mariano

Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

Exactly that was my idea. I see work in progress for minimal images, but not for "minimal" or more modular VM. I said I don't see not because there isn't, just because I don't know.

The VM is modular by design, i.e., by using plugins. The most minimal VM at this point is decidedly the Android VM, see

http://code.google.com/p/squeak-android-vm/source/browse/trunk/project/jni/

>From this VM you could still remove the B2DPlugin, LargeIntegers, MiscPrimPlugin, and ZipPlugin. That's pretty damn minimal (the binary is 300k in size).

Cheers,
 - Andreas

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 10:33 AM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:

Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

Exactly that was my idea. I see work in progress for minimal images, but not for "minimal" or more modular VM. I said I don't see not because there isn't, just because I don't know.

The VM is modular by design, i.e., by using plugins. The most minimal VM at this point is decidedly the Android VM, see

http://code.google.com/p/squeak-android-vm/source/browse/trunk/project/jni/

>From this VM you could still remove the B2DPlugin, LargeIntegers, MiscPrimPlugin, and ZipPlugin. That's pretty damn minimal (the binary is 300k in size).

I would definitely /not/ remove LargeIntegers (core arithmetic) or ZipPlugin (method trailers, loading/unloading compressed files).  We need to start making a chart of plugin vs functionality supported and (as Tim has encouraged us to do in the past) start evicting plugins that do not support core language functionality (e.g. LargeIntegers) or near universal utility (e.g. ZipPlugin) to external status.

Cheers,
 - Andreas

For the OSX Version 4 VM the build documentation says:

       F.      Select plugins. (Suggest selecting menu item "make all internal",
               then drag back the following back to Plugins not built:
                       CroquetPlugin
                       FFIPlugin
                       FloatMathPlugin
                       FileCopyPlugin
                       Mpeg3Plugin
                       TestOSAPlugin

I also then supply these as external plugins, some are mac platform specific.

ClipboardExtendedPlugin.bundle
CroquetPlugin.bundle
CurlPlugin.bundle
FloatMathPlugin.bundle
FT2Plugin.bundle
IA32ABI.bundle
KedamaPlugin.bundle
KedamaPlugin2.bundle
LocalePlugin.bundle
mpeg3Plugin.bundle
OggPlugin.bundle
PrintJobPlugin.bundle
QuicktimePlugin.bundle
RomePlugin.bundle
SerialExtendedUnixPlugin.bundle
ServicesPlugin.bundle
SparklePlugin.bundle
SpellingPlugin.bundle
SqueakFFIPrims.bundle
TestOSAPlugin.bundle
UnixOSProcessPlugin.bundle

On 2010-02-09, at 10:33 AM, Andreas Raab wrote:

> Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>> Exactly that was my idea. I see work in progress for minimal images, but not for "minimal" or more modular VM. I said I don't see not because there isn't, just because I don't know.
>
> The VM is modular by design, i.e., by using plugins. The most minimal VM at this point is decidedly the Android VM, see
>
> http://code.google.com/p/squeak-android-vm/source/browse/trunk/project/jni/
>
> From this VM you could still remove the B2DPlugin, LargeIntegers, MiscPrimPlugin, and ZipPlugin. That's pretty damn minimal (the binary is 300k in size).
>
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas

--
===========================================================================
John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
===========================================================================

I knew that was going to be confusing :(  
I did try 'Mac OS' as it was like that after downloading with SVN. And that's where I got the problem. Then, I thought (used to Linux) that there may be some problem with the space. I changed, but still the same problem :(

If the screenshot is accurate, I believe the "path to platform source" line needs to point to .../platforms, not /platforms/MacOS.
This subfolder is chosen with the Platform name.

On Tue, Feb 09, 2010 at 05:41:03PM +0100, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:
>
> - is there a way to know which are the "core" plugins ? I mean, suppose I
> want to deploy an application, do you know more or less which plugins will
> be VERY likely to be needed ?   For example, I guess I don't need
> CroquetPlugin or FFI if I don't use it in my app, but FilePlugin for
> example, I guess it is needed even to bootstrap (maybe I am wrong, it is
> just an example).
> What I am trying to do is to see how can I create the minimal "production"
> vm according to my needs.

The minimum set of plugins required for a useful VM is:
 BalloonEnginePlugin
 BitBltSimulation
 FilePlugin
 SocketPlugin 

This produces a VM that can run an image, open the display,

read the
source files, and interact with the network.

You can add other plugins
as needed. John provided the list of plugins that he includes in a Mac
VM, and you can see the plugins used in Ian's Unix VMs by looking at
the files platforms/unix/src/plugins.int and platforms/unix/src/plugins.ext,
which were generated from VMMaker as of Ian's last distribution.

Dave

http://www.squeakvm.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/platforms/Mac%20OS/vm/Documentation/readme.txt?rev=1984&view=auto

On 2010-02-09, at 11:39 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:37 PM, John M McIntosh <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the OSX Version 4 VM the build documentation says:

Where is that information John ?   I am trying to compile the vm now that I already generated the .c but I am not sure how to do it correctly.

I noticed that it doesn't exit something like http://www.squeakvm.org/macos

I checked in http://smalltalkconsulting.com/squeak.html

but I didn't find anything.

Thanks

Mariano

--

===========================================================================

John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882

Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com

===========================================================================

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 9:10 PM, John M McIntosh <[hidden email]> wrote:

http://www.squeakvm.org/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/trunk/platforms/Mac%20OS/vm/Documentation/readme.txt?rev=1984&view=auto

Thanks John. I have been trying to follow your steps. They are pretty accurate, however, I had some problems. I hope my newbie problems be of help to update the documentation if required.

1)  I had to copy the src generated from VMMaker (which was generated by default in the same directoy where the image is)  to svnSqueakTree/
From your comments I think you let also the default src. So, in such case I guess to need to do what I did (copy). I am right ?

In summary:  copy /Users/mariano/Pharo/imagenes/Pharo1.0-10508-rc1dev10.01.1/src  to  /Users/mariano/Pharo/VM/svnSqueakTree/svnSqueakTree

2)  In step 6, A)  it says "Double-click the SqueakVMUNIXPATHS.xcodeproj file"    which one ??  because at that time I have 3 of those files, as the readme previously said to copy that file to the folder where "platforms" and "src" are...So, I have 3 different SqueakVMUNIXPATHS.xcodeproj files.

I used the one of /Users/mariano/Pharo/VM/svnSqueakTree/svnSqueakTree

is this correct ? which should I use ?

3) In step 6, e) it says "From the Project menu pick the active build configuration you want to use."
I noticed that there is an option "set active build configuration" and 3 options: development, deployment and deployment symbols.

3.a) I am intrigued in the differences of those 3. I mean, what is done different in the compilation.

3.b) What is deploymentSymbols ?

3.c) Doing develoment, the VM is 2mb, but doing deployment is 3....is this correct ??  I would expect the development be bigger that deployment

4.d) There is an incredible difference in speed. Development is MUUUUUUCH more slow that production. This takes me to 3.a)   ;)


4)  No matter the "set active build configuration"  I couldn't make FreeType to work. I open an image with TrueType, but I cannot see the fonts...But the plugins are included when building the VM with VMMaker.
Do you now what can be the problem ?
 

Thanks for any tip!

Mariano


 

On 2010-02-09, at 11:39 AM, Mariano Martinez Peck wrote:

On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 7:37 PM, John M McIntosh <[hidden email]> wrote:

For the OSX Version 4 VM the build documentation says:

Where is that information John ?   I am trying to compile the vm now that I already generated the .c but I am not sure how to do it correctly.

I noticed that it doesn't exit something like http://www.squeakvm.org/macos

I checked in http://smalltalkconsulting.com/squeak.html

but I didn't find anything.

Thanks

Mariano

--

===========================================================================

John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882

Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com

===========================================================================