Re: Alan Kay's EuroPython Keynote

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:
Hi folks,

let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys  
and let us accept the challenge.

I googled for python IDEs today and found
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
and
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

I have to say that I was not impressed.

The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
based on Qt (Eric4)
had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython

Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives  
for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a  
better place - if it is not Squeak?

Cheers,

Markus

p.s. another blog about Alan's talk can be found on
http://vanrees.org/weblog/archive/2006/07/03/europython-keynote-alan- 
kay-children-first

p.p.s. inspired by Paul Bissex - a guy who once wrote a small article  
about squeak for Wired - challenge on:
http://e-scribe.com/news/193
I wrote an Etoys version of this "reverse"-game.
It can be found on
http://www.squeakland.org/project.jsp?http://www.emergent.de/pub/ 
smalltalk/squeak/projects/reverse.pr

(I hope you all have the squeakland plugin installed... ;-) )

It has only a few lines more than the smalltalk (I  included a  
smalltalk version), python, ruby,... version but comes with a much  
more sophisticated user interface.
So I do think that Etoys are the way to go... no matter what the  
language is underneath - be it smalltalk/python/ruby/etc...
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Markus Gaelli wrote:

On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:46 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:

Serge Stinckwich wrote:

There is a report of Guido Van Rossum about an Alan Kay talk in his
web log here : http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=167318

this is sad to read:

Alan believes that Python has a much larger mindshare than Smalltalk or
Squeak, and that because of this a similar environment in Python will
have a greater chance of succeeding than the current Squeak one. Also,
the $100 laptop already has Python, and Alan is of course hoping that a
Squeak-like environment will be part of it, so this appears expedient.
(At the Shuttleworth summit in April
<http://www.artima.com/weblogs/viewpost.jsp?thread=156162> I believe
Alan also suggested that Squeak is suffering from its extremely simple
graphics model; apparently it cannot benefit from graphics accelerator
cards because of its platform-independent architecture. Python on the
other hand already has bindings to OpenGL and DirectX, for example.)

--brad
sonaural

Hi folks,

let's be proud that Smalltalk was indispensable to come up with Etoys and let us accept the challenge.

I googled for python IDEs today and found
http://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments
and there the most up to date IDE shootout of
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html
and
http://spyced.blogspot.com/2006/02/pycon-python-ide-review.html

I have to say that I was not impressed.

The IDEs were either not free: Wing, Komodo and in the future PyDev
based on Qt (Eric4)
had no liberal license (Gnu! ): SPE
couldn't eat their own dog food as they were based on Java: PyDev
or didn't have convincing screenshots: DrPython

Alan, which python IDE would you suggest us to widen our perspectives for ourselves, the job market and for helping to make the world a better place - if it is not Squeak?

I have no idea if Alan actually said that, there are not quotes. And, Alan can speak for himself. However(!), if the essence of the paraphrase is right, I think he's suggesting that Python can benefit from the work that Smalltalk has pioneered. But, I don't know if he's referring to the IDE, eToys, or what when he says "environment"

-- 
brad
sonaural

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Hi all,

I would like to use this chance to talk about some questions regarding
the OLPC project and Squeak. In my own short experience teaching, there
is nothing like Squeak for teaching programming (even for not so young
children like myself and my university students). Is fun, is connected
with the world, is media rich. It was pretty amazing for me to find that
Squeak would not be included in OLPC. I liked a lot python also and I
have had rewarding experiences using it as a first programming language,
but Squeak works better in a heterogeneous teaching environment. So here
come my questions:

 * ¿Why was not Squeak included in the OLPC project?

 * I have heard that in Argentina the laptops would work with Utoto, a
local distro there. So, if Fedora Distro is not a "must be" and Laptops
can be "located", ¿could we create a program to "enrich" OLPC original
offering with Squeak?

 * In my experience Squeak is in some way, too much self contained: it
has his own file manganer (no problem here) but has no drag & drop from
graphical file managers in Unix (not even for the ones which support XDD
XDesktop standard), no "bindings" with other languages (one of the
success of python is the possibility to use easily C++ or Java code with
Python), etc. ¿Would be possible to have some kind of Spytalk (or
Pytalk) that makes for the relation Squeak-Python what Jython makes for
the Java-Python relationship?, would be nice to have the possibility to
write python inside squeak, or to extend/mix Smalltalk code with python
one, for example in etoys. Making a bridge between Squeak and Python, we
could to take advantage of the python mind share, without loosing the
Squeak power ¿Is this much difficult? (may be the answer is "yes" :-/ ).

Cheers,

Offray

Markus Gaelli escribió:

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