Re: Croquet vs. Secondlife regarding future development (some thoughts to share...)

> Best Hussayn,
>
> You bring up the same thoughts and questions ive been struggling with.
>
> I am (also) trying to think of ways that would allow me/others to make a SL
> kind of environment in Croquet.
> Still feeling a smalltalk newbie - after two years into it, i don't have the
> answers.
>
> What i see and understand of Croquet/squeak, tells me it has enormous
> potential, but it needs to be polished.
> It's still like a diamond in the rough.
>
> As far as i know, there are no building tools present yet - at least not as
> advanced as in SL.
> You need to program for everyting you want to do now in Croquet, which - for
> me - is still a bit hard.
> Im still trying to get better at plain squeak/smalltalk and trying to
> understand Croquet (and its frameworks).
> But for me - as an outsider - it is hard to see which parts (of Croquet) are
> finished (or almost finished) and what is in the pipeline.
>
> I think SL is a very intresting environment, because it has an enourmous
> userbase, which has made lots of contents.
> SL shows very well what a group (community) of people can do - even with
> limited tools. I say this because the building
> tools in SL are great, but the scripting is lousy. Also, they are not doing
> well on the scalibility of their service,
> which are the exact points where Croquet can do great (as far as i
> understand).
>
> If you wanna meetup in SL, my username is: Frunnik Herbst
> I would like very much to exchange some more ideas and thoughts, and maybe
> we could inspire each other.
>
> Best regards,
>
>   -jeroen
>
>
>
> PS: I am a software developer in Amsterdam, Holland - so we are practicly
> neighbours already ;).
>
>
>
> "Hussayn Dabbous" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
> news:WISCLIST-3319951-4203780-2007.01.27-08.11.16--croquet-dev%[hidden email]...
>> Hi, all;
>>
>> I am a software developer (running a small IT-company in cologne/germany)
> and
>> recently i stumbled/jumped into the exciting world of VR. So i am
> absolutely newbie
>> here... After some initial "dont know where to go" i finally ended up
> doing some
>> first investigations on Croquet, Ogoglio and on SL. I also looked at
> others,
>> but at the end it was Croquet and SL which i took some time for. So in
> short i
>> found quite a few very interesting ongoing development in this  field.
>>
>> But when it comes to "business" (whatever that means) i have the strong
> feeling
>> that i am sitting in the dark tunnel but don't see the light at the end.
>> Paul i just have read your contrib and i am willing to investigate in
> finding
>> a way out ;-)
>>
>> My very first idea regarding "productive usage scenarios with VR" was to
> setup
>> a VR based "issue tracking system" where i would install two virtual rooms
>> one at the customers site one at my site and let do comunications threw
> VR.
>> I discussed this idea recently on the Croquet devlist and it was judged as
>> feasible and doable, but i still can't get over some current limitations
>> (which may well exists only due to my unawareness).
>>
>> So here are my thoughts/doubts and hopefully i can get some feedback or
> someone
>> would help me to start some constructive activities to get over the (my?)
> limitations.
>> First of all any introduction of a VR based issue tracker must be totally
> accepted
>> by (my/the) customers, which means a handfull of preconditions:
>>
>> - it must be easy to install (best would be to have a plugin for IE)
>> - it must run seemlessly over HTTP in order to get through the firewalls
>>    at the customers site
>> - it must be easy to handle, best would be to fire up the app (possibly
> login)
>>    and arrive in your local room.
>> - controlling of the in world navigation must be intuitive and easy...
>> - people must feel comfortable from the first minute...
>>
>>  From the postings i received i understood, Croquet is on the way or even
> has
>> allready the infrastructure to achieve these goals (with some additional
> programming).
>> I haven't seen the Browser plugin, but i have been told there is one
> (somebody can
>> tell me where? i missed to find it ...)
>>
>> I currently miss a few essential things regarding comfort in Croquet,
> e.g.:
>> - i would like to see my avatar "well formed" i.e. adequate to the app.
> Rabbits
>>    are simply not an option ;-)
>>    i know, i could fire up Poses and after some quick hacking i could get
> my
>>    SL Avatar running around in Croquet worlds. But IMHO the minimum
> requirement
>>    would be to get some easy to use avatar constructor/editor into play so
> that
>>    i can start off with some prototype characters and easy customization.
>> - i would like to see an easy building editor where i can construct my
> room
>>    as i need it. placing walls where i want them and putting in extra
> items
>>    as i need them, doing some land shaping... If there are some tools
> around,
>>    which allow me to construct my virtual world outside of Croquet and
> then import
>>    it later, that would be a starting point at least. Currently i did not
>>    even manage to create an emtpy world with the Croquet SDK (i am afraid,
>>    i am really unaware of the basics...)
>> - I wonder whether it may be possible to not only port Avatars from SL,
> but also port
>>    Landscapes (better say the static definitions of a whole room/world)
> from SL to Croquet.
>>    So i could go to SL, construct my room(s) there, export them and import
> them into
>>    Croquet. That would help me getting around quite a few reservations.
> afaik the
>>    datastructures needed (at least) for import into SL are open and
> available...
>>    So export from SL might go as well... But maybe there are far better 3D
> construction
>>    frameworks available, which could be used to generate VR rooms ?
>>
>> Of course i am currently tramping around in SL simply because it is so
> amazingly
>> easy to manage the user interaction stuff like building rooms, moving
> around, etc.
>> Ok there IS a certain amount of pleasure and fun tramping around at their
> place too ;-)
>> But it won't help me achieving my goals as expressed above, because SL is
> currently
>> a closed framework, where even the Hardware is under sole control of the
> Linden Lab.
>> So where will things evolve in the near/far future?
>> - Will SL open up and allow external servers connect to their worlds
> and/or make
>>    their server software available (licensed or public)?
>> - Is VR in general an option to compete with todays Web at all ?
>> - Will Ogoglio take a role or influence development with their ideas about
> reusing
>>    known technologies?
>> - Or will Croquet gain momentum and find a way into an easy to use and
> easy to manage
>>    VR application at the end?
>>
>> So where to go right now ? Keeping an Eye on Croquet is definitely an
> option. Keeping
>> an eye on SL? yes, i think so. Understanding what people will do NOW in
> the public
>> VR should allow some pragmatic predictions into future usage scenarios...
>>
>> But is keeping an eye on it all i could DO now? Where to go next? Maybe
> others are on
>> the way. I'd like to share your experiences and opinions. I want to
> understand which
>> next steps would be best to go. At the end finding a way out of the dark
> would be great ;-)
>> Sometimes i ask myself whether one day we could achieve such a level of
> compatibility,
>> that it becomes possible to simply step threw a Croquet portal into other
> VR's i.e. SL.
>> Ok, that sounds like SCIFI to me, but at the end there is OpenID and other
> stuff already
>> available as i learned from an interview with Ogoglio's Trevor Smith at
>>
>> http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/01/interview_with_.html
>>
>> I'd appreciate if someone could find some answers or hints for next moves.
> Maybe we
>> can get along the way together ;-) I even was so crazy to order an Island
> in SL where
>> i plan to build a developers camp (i told i'm sitting in the dark,
> right?). So it would
>> be at least an interesting experience to meet some of you "in world" when
> it is ready
>> and start planning how to flee from SL back to Croquet at the end ;-)
>>
>> best regards from Koeln and hope for getting some guidance/further
> insights,
>> guidelines, whatever...
>> Hussayn
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

> Best Hussayn,
>
> You bring up the same thoughts and questions ive been struggling with.
>
> I am (also) trying to think of ways that would allow me/others to make a SL
> kind of environment in Croquet.
> Still feeling a smalltalk newbie - after two years into it, i don't have the
> answers.
>
> What i see and understand of Croquet/squeak, tells me it has enormous
> potential, but it needs to be polished.
> It's still like a diamond in the rough.
>
> As far as i know, there are no building tools present yet - at least not as
> advanced as in SL.
> You need to program for everyting you want to do now in Croquet, which - for
> me - is still a bit hard.
> Im still trying to get better at plain squeak/smalltalk and trying to
> understand Croquet (and its frameworks).
> But for me - as an outsider - it is hard to see which parts (of Croquet) are
> finished (or almost finished) and what is in the pipeline.
>
> I think SL is a very intresting environment, because it has an enourmous
> userbase, which has made lots of contents.
> SL shows very well what a group (community) of people can do - even with
> limited tools. I say this because the building
> tools in SL are great, but the scripting is lousy. Also, they are not doing
> well on the scalibility of their service,
> which are the exact points where Croquet can do great (as far as i
> understand).
>
> If you wanna meetup in SL, my username is: Frunnik Herbst
> I would like very much to exchange some more ideas and thoughts, and maybe
> we could inspire each other.
>
> Best regards,
>
>   -jeroen
>
>
>
> PS: I am a software developer in Amsterdam, Holland - so we are practicly
> neighbours already ;).
>
>
>
> "Hussayn Dabbous" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
> news:WISCLIST-3319951-4203780-2007.01.27-08.11.16--croquet-dev%[hidden email]...
>> Hi, all;
>>
>> I am a software developer (running a small IT-company in cologne/germany)
> and
>> recently i stumbled/jumped into the exciting world of VR. So i am
> absolutely newbie
>> here... After some initial "dont know where to go" i finally ended up
> doing some
>> first investigations on Croquet, Ogoglio and on SL. I also looked at
> others,
>> but at the end it was Croquet and SL which i took some time for. So in
> short i
>> found quite a few very interesting ongoing development in this  field.
>>
>> But when it comes to "business" (whatever that means) i have the strong
> feeling
>> that i am sitting in the dark tunnel but don't see the light at the end.
>> Paul i just have read your contrib and i am willing to investigate in
> finding
>> a way out ;-)
>>
>> My very first idea regarding "productive usage scenarios with VR" was to
> setup
>> a VR based "issue tracking system" where i would install two virtual rooms
>> one at the customers site one at my site and let do comunications threw
> VR.
>> I discussed this idea recently on the Croquet devlist and it was judged as
>> feasible and doable, but i still can't get over some current limitations
>> (which may well exists only due to my unawareness).
>>
>> So here are my thoughts/doubts and hopefully i can get some feedback or
> someone
>> would help me to start some constructive activities to get over the (my?)
> limitations.
>> First of all any introduction of a VR based issue tracker must be totally
> accepted
>> by (my/the) customers, which means a handfull of preconditions:
>>
>> - it must be easy to install (best would be to have a plugin for IE)
>> - it must run seemlessly over HTTP in order to get through the firewalls
>>    at the customers site
>> - it must be easy to handle, best would be to fire up the app (possibly
> login)
>>    and arrive in your local room.
>> - controlling of the in world navigation must be intuitive and easy...
>> - people must feel comfortable from the first minute...
>>
>>  From the postings i received i understood, Croquet is on the way or even
> has
>> allready the infrastructure to achieve these goals (with some additional
> programming).
>> I haven't seen the Browser plugin, but i have been told there is one
> (somebody can
>> tell me where? i missed to find it ...)
>>
>> I currently miss a few essential things regarding comfort in Croquet,
> e.g.:
>> - i would like to see my avatar "well formed" i.e. adequate to the app.
> Rabbits
>>    are simply not an option ;-)
>>    i know, i could fire up Poses and after some quick hacking i could get
> my
>>    SL Avatar running around in Croquet worlds. But IMHO the minimum
> requirement
>>    would be to get some easy to use avatar constructor/editor into play so
> that
>>    i can start off with some prototype characters and easy customization.
>> - i would like to see an easy building editor where i can construct my
> room
>>    as i need it. placing walls where i want them and putting in extra
> items
>>    as i need them, doing some land shaping... If there are some tools
> around,
>>    which allow me to construct my virtual world outside of Croquet and
> then import
>>    it later, that would be a starting point at least. Currently i did not
>>    even manage to create an emtpy world with the Croquet SDK (i am afraid,
>>    i am really unaware of the basics...)
>> - I wonder whether it may be possible to not only port Avatars from SL,
> but also port
>>    Landscapes (better say the static definitions of a whole room/world)
> from SL to Croquet.
>>    So i could go to SL, construct my room(s) there, export them and import
> them into
>>    Croquet. That would help me getting around quite a few reservations.
> afaik the
>>    datastructures needed (at least) for import into SL are open and
> available...
>>    So export from SL might go as well... But maybe there are far better 3D
> construction
>>    frameworks available, which could be used to generate VR rooms ?
>>
>> Of course i am currently tramping around in SL simply because it is so
> amazingly
>> easy to manage the user interaction stuff like building rooms, moving
> around, etc.
>> Ok there IS a certain amount of pleasure and fun tramping around at their
> place too ;-)
>> But it won't help me achieving my goals as expressed above, because SL is
> currently
>> a closed framework, where even the Hardware is under sole control of the
> Linden Lab.
>> So where will things evolve in the near/far future?
>> - Will SL open up and allow external servers connect to their worlds
> and/or make
>>    their server software available (licensed or public)?
>> - Is VR in general an option to compete with todays Web at all ?
>> - Will Ogoglio take a role or influence development with their ideas about
> reusing
>>    known technologies?
>> - Or will Croquet gain momentum and find a way into an easy to use and
> easy to manage
>>    VR application at the end?
>>
>> So where to go right now ? Keeping an Eye on Croquet is definitely an
> option. Keeping
>> an eye on SL? yes, i think so. Understanding what people will do NOW in
> the public
>> VR should allow some pragmatic predictions into future usage scenarios...
>>
>> But is keeping an eye on it all i could DO now? Where to go next? Maybe
> others are on
>> the way. I'd like to share your experiences and opinions. I want to
> understand which
>> next steps would be best to go. At the end finding a way out of the dark
> would be great ;-)
>> Sometimes i ask myself whether one day we could achieve such a level of
> compatibility,
>> that it becomes possible to simply step threw a Croquet portal into other
> VR's i.e. SL.
>> Ok, that sounds like SCIFI to me, but at the end there is OpenID and other
> stuff already
>> available as i learned from an interview with Ogoglio's Trevor Smith at
>>
>> http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/01/interview_with_.html
>>
>> I'd appreciate if someone could find some answers or hints for next moves.
> Maybe we
>> can get along the way together ;-) I even was so crazy to order an Island
> in SL where
>> i plan to build a developers camp (i told i'm sitting in the dark,
> right?). So it would
>> be at least an interesting experience to meet some of you "in world" when
> it is ready
>> and start planning how to flee from SL back to Croquet at the end ;-)
>>
>> best regards from Koeln and hope for getting some guidance/further
> insights,
>> guidelines, whatever...
>> Hussayn
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

> Hi all,
>
> It was really nice to see people with common interest on using open source technologies to build virtual worlds. I have been looking on and investigating in SL, Croquet and Uni-verse for some time to figure out which direction should i take to build such worlds. As a group of software developers and designers from Istanbul, Turkey, our aim is to develop multi-user virtual worlds.
>
> Integrating various technologies is also an interesting route, as Kelly Rued stated, because in this way users of different worlds may interfere with each other or even come together seamlessly.
>
> I would like to propose coming together in SL, and form a group to discuss and even pilot some ideas. My name in SL is "Kaan Tornado" (pretty straightforward). I wait for others to send e-mail or IM to meet and start a group in SL.
>
> Regards, Kaan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: news [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Hussayn Dabbous
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 9:28 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Croquet vs. Secondlife regarding future development (some thoughts to share...)
>
> Hy, Jeroen;
>
> Nice to see, that there is some activity out in the real world.
> Definitely i'd appreciate to get into closer contact. So lets meet in SL.
> I was not soo creative with my name in SL, it's simply "hussayn salomon"
>
> Maybe we can even organize a get together with others in SL in a second
> step ? I'd really like to check, if that works as expected ;-)
>
> I propose to meet at IBM, maybe on one of the sandboxes around there ?
> Or do you have a better place ? Maybe an office ?
>
> The IBM SLURL i have in mind is http://slurl.com/secondlife/IBM/47/203/102
>
> We can either meet at the usual office hours or late in the evening. Just drop
> me an email when you are going online. chances are high that i am around ;-)
>
> BTW i opened up a new blog about the theme yesterday at http://saxess.wordpress.com/
>
> regards, hussayn
>
> Jeroen van Hilst schrieb:
> > Best Hussayn,
> >
> > You bring up the same thoughts and questions ive been struggling with.
> >
> > I am (also) trying to think of ways that would allow me/others to make a SL
> > kind of environment in Croquet.
> > Still feeling a smalltalk newbie - after two years into it, i don't have the
> > answers.
> >
> > What i see and understand of Croquet/squeak, tells me it has enormous
> > potential, but it needs to be polished.
> > It's still like a diamond in the rough.
> >
> > As far as i know, there are no building tools present yet - at least not as
> > advanced as in SL.
> > You need to program for everyting you want to do now in Croquet, which - for
> > me - is still a bit hard.
> > Im still trying to get better at plain squeak/smalltalk and trying to
> > understand Croquet (and its frameworks).
> > But for me - as an outsider - it is hard to see which parts (of Croquet) are
> > finished (or almost finished) and what is in the pipeline.
> >
> > I think SL is a very intresting environment, because it has an enourmous
> > userbase, which has made lots of contents.
> > SL shows very well what a group (community) of people can do - even with
> > limited tools. I say this because the building
> > tools in SL are great, but the scripting is lousy. Also, they are not doing
> > well on the scalibility of their service,
> > which are the exact points where Croquet can do great (as far as i
> > understand).
> >
> > If you wanna meetup in SL, my username is: Frunnik Herbst
> > I would like very much to exchange some more ideas and thoughts, and maybe
> > we could inspire each other.
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> >   -jeroen
> >
> >
> >
> > PS: I am a software developer in Amsterdam, Holland - so we are practicly
> > neighbours already ;).
> >
> >
> >
> > "Hussayn Dabbous" <[hidden email]> wrote in message
> > news:WISCLIST-3319951-4203780-2007.01.27-08.11.16--croquet-dev%[hidden email]...
> >> Hi, all;
> >>
> >> I am a software developer (running a small IT-company in cologne/germany)
> > and
> >> recently i stumbled/jumped into the exciting world of VR. So i am
> > absolutely newbie
> >> here... After some initial "dont know where to go" i finally ended up
> > doing some
> >> first investigations on Croquet, Ogoglio and on SL. I also looked at
> > others,
> >> but at the end it was Croquet and SL which i took some time for. So in
> > short i
> >> found quite a few very interesting ongoing development in this  field.
> >>
> >> But when it comes to "business" (whatever that means) i have the strong
> > feeling
> >> that i am sitting in the dark tunnel but don't see the light at the end.
> >> Paul i just have read your contrib and i am willing to investigate in
> > finding
> >> a way out ;-)
> >>
> >> My very first idea regarding "productive usage scenarios with VR" was to
> > setup
> >> a VR based "issue tracking system" where i would install two virtual rooms
> >> one at the customers site one at my site and let do comunications threw
> > VR.
> >> I discussed this idea recently on the Croquet devlist and it was judged as
> >> feasible and doable, but i still can't get over some current limitations
> >> (which may well exists only due to my unawareness).
> >>
> >> So here are my thoughts/doubts and hopefully i can get some feedback or
> > someone
> >> would help me to start some constructive activities to get over the (my?)
> > limitations.
> >> First of all any introduction of a VR based issue tracker must be totally
> > accepted
> >> by (my/the) customers, which means a handfull of preconditions:
> >>
> >> - it must be easy to install (best would be to have a plugin for IE)
> >> - it must run seemlessly over HTTP in order to get through the firewalls
> >>    at the customers site
> >> - it must be easy to handle, best would be to fire up the app (possibly
> > login)
> >>    and arrive in your local room.
> >> - controlling of the in world navigation must be intuitive and easy...
> >> - people must feel comfortable from the first minute...
> >>
> >>  From the postings i received i understood, Croquet is on the way or even
> > has
> >> allready the infrastructure to achieve these goals (with some additional
> > programming).
> >> I haven't seen the Browser plugin, but i have been told there is one
> > (somebody can
> >> tell me where? i missed to find it ...)
> >>
> >> I currently miss a few essential things regarding comfort in Croquet,
> > e.g.:
> >> - i would like to see my avatar "well formed" i.e. adequate to the app.
> > Rabbits
> >>    are simply not an option ;-)
> >>    i know, i could fire up Poses and after some quick hacking i could get
> > my
> >>    SL Avatar running around in Croquet worlds. But IMHO the minimum
> > requirement
> >>    would be to get some easy to use avatar constructor/editor into play so
> > that
> >>    i can start off with some prototype characters and easy customization.
> >> - i would like to see an easy building editor where i can construct my
> > room
> >>    as i need it. placing walls where i want them and putting in extra
> > items
> >>    as i need them, doing some land shaping... If there are some tools
> > around,
> >>    which allow me to construct my virtual world outside of Croquet and
> > then import
> >>    it later, that would be a starting point at least. Currently i did not
> >>    even manage to create an emtpy world with the Croquet SDK (i am afraid,
> >>    i am really unaware of the basics...)
> >> - I wonder whether it may be possible to not only port Avatars from SL,
> > but also port
> >>    Landscapes (better say the static definitions of a whole room/world)
> > from SL to Croquet.
> >>    So i could go to SL, construct my room(s) there, export them and import
> > them into
> >>    Croquet. That would help me getting around quite a few reservations.
> > afaik the
> >>    datastructures needed (at least) for import into SL are open and
> > available...
> >>    So export from SL might go as well... But maybe there are far better 3D
> > construction
> >>    frameworks available, which could be used to generate VR rooms ?
> >>
> >> Of course i am currently tramping around in SL simply because it is so
> > amazingly
> >> easy to manage the user interaction stuff like building rooms, moving
> > around, etc.
> >> Ok there IS a certain amount of pleasure and fun tramping around at their
> > place too ;-)
> >> But it won't help me achieving my goals as expressed above, because SL is
> > currently
> >> a closed framework, where even the Hardware is under sole control of the
> > Linden Lab.
> >> So where will things evolve in the near/far future?
> >> - Will SL open up and allow external servers connect to their worlds
> > and/or make
> >>    their server software available (licensed or public)?
> >> - Is VR in general an option to compete with todays Web at all ?
> >> - Will Ogoglio take a role or influence development with their ideas about
> > reusing
> >>    known technologies?
> >> - Or will Croquet gain momentum and find a way into an easy to use and
> > easy to manage
> >>    VR application at the end?
> >>
> >> So where to go right now ? Keeping an Eye on Croquet is definitely an
> > option. Keeping
> >> an eye on SL? yes, i think so. Understanding what people will do NOW in
> > the public
> >> VR should allow some pragmatic predictions into future usage scenarios...
> >>
> >> But is keeping an eye on it all i could DO now? Where to go next? Maybe
> > others are on
> >> the way. I'd like to share your experiences and opinions. I want to
> > understand which
> >> next steps would be best to go. At the end finding a way out of the dark
> > would be great ;-)
> >> Sometimes i ask myself whether one day we could achieve such a level of
> > compatibility,
> >> that it becomes possible to simply step threw a Croquet portal into other
> > VR's i.e. SL.
> >> Ok, that sounds like SCIFI to me, but at the end there is OpenID and other
> > stuff already
> >> available as i learned from an interview with Ogoglio's Trevor Smith at
> >>
> >> http://www.secondlifeherald.com/slh/2007/01/interview_with_.html
> >>
> >> I'd appreciate if someone could find some answers or hints for next moves.
> > Maybe we
> >> can get along the way together ;-) I even was so crazy to order an Island
> > in SL where
> >> i plan to build a developers camp (i told i'm sitting in the dark,
> > right?). So it would
> >> be at least an interesting experience to meet some of you "in world" when
> > it is ready
> >> and start planning how to flee from SL back to Croquet at the end ;-)
> >>
> >> best regards from Koeln and hope for getting some guidance/further
> > insights,
> >> guidelines, whatever...
> >> Hussayn
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>

> hy there.
>
> yes, would be interesting to make a gettogether in SL.
> i too own an island there, currently setting up a developers camp and
> software related trade shows and so on. Currently the island is a big mess,
> much construction, lousy place to meet ;-) so lets take giulio's initiative
> up and go to his place. sounds great.
>
> It turns out to be rather unhandy that people have different names in RL and SL.
> i always loose track, who is who in the game. So what about collecting an invitation
> list here, where everybody drops his first name/second name ...
>
> so i'll start it right now:
>
> real life name              SL name
> Hussayn dabbous             Hussayn Salomon
> Kelly Rued                  Lotte Twilight
> Giulio Prisco               Giulio Perhaps
> Kaan Bingöl                 Kaan Tornado
>
> It would be nice if there where an agenda around before the meeting takes place...
>
> regards, hussayn
>
> Kelly Rued schrieb:
> > My SL name is Lotte Twilight. I look forward to meeting Croquet users in SL.
> > I agree that forming a group in SL to look into cross-platform projects with
> > communication or some level of integrationg between Croquet and something
> > like SL which is more user friendly at the moment.
> >
> > -Kelly
> >
> >
>
>

> I will be back in SL in a few hours and plan to create a SL Group
> "altVR" (alternatives to SL, including Croquet, Multiverse etc).
> I must be honest and say that I have some doubts about Croquet,
> However, lets discuss in SL.
> G.
>
> On 2/2/07, Hussayn Dabbous <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > hy there.
> >
> > yes, would be interesting to make a gettogether in SL.
> > i too own an island there, currently setting up a developers camp and
> > software related trade shows and so on. Currently the island is a big mess,
> > much construction, lousy place to meet ;-) so lets take giulio's initiative
> > up and go to his place. sounds great.
> >
> > It turns out to be rather unhandy that people have different names in RL and SL.
> > i always loose track, who is who in the game. So what about collecting an invitation
> > list here, where everybody drops his first name/second name ...
> >
> > so i'll start it right now:
> >
> > real life name              SL name
> > Hussayn dabbous             Hussayn Salomon
> > Kelly Rued                  Lotte Twilight
> > Giulio Prisco               Giulio Perhaps
> > Kaan Bingöl                 Kaan Tornado
> >
> > It would be nice if there where an agenda around before the meeting takes place...
> >
> > regards, hussayn
> >
> > Kelly Rued schrieb:
> > > My SL name is Lotte Twilight. I look forward to meeting Croquet users in SL.
> > > I agree that forming a group in SL to look into cross-platform projects with
> > > communication or some level of integrationg between Croquet and something
> > > like SL which is more user friendly at the moment.
> > >
> > > -Kelly
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>

> Perhaps we could organize a symposium in Second Life (which is the
> only VR environment fully operational and able to support a symposium
> at this moment) on the evolution of consumer Metaverse technology and
> the relative merits/shortcomings of Second Life, Croquet, Multiverse,
> Parisi's Flux, uni-verse etc.
> Sort of a mini roadmap project done in-world.
> G.
>
> On 2/2/07, Giulio Prisco <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I will be back in SL in a few hours and plan to create a SL Group
> > "altVR" (alternatives to SL, including Croquet, Multiverse etc).
> > I must be honest and say that I have some doubts about Croquet,
> > However, lets discuss in SL.
> > G.
> >
> > On 2/2/07, Hussayn Dabbous <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > hy there.
> > >
> > > yes, would be interesting to make a gettogether in SL.
> > > i too own an island there, currently setting up a developers camp and
> > > software related trade shows and so on. Currently the island is a big mess,
> > > much construction, lousy place to meet ;-) so lets take giulio's initiative
> > > up and go to his place. sounds great.
> > >
> > > It turns out to be rather unhandy that people have different names in RL and SL.
> > > i always loose track, who is who in the game. So what about collecting an invitation
> > > list here, where everybody drops his first name/second name ...
> > >
> > > so i'll start it right now:
> > >
> > > real life name              SL name
> > > Hussayn dabbous             Hussayn Salomon
> > > Kelly Rued                  Lotte Twilight
> > > Giulio Prisco               Giulio Perhaps
> > > Kaan Bingöl                 Kaan Tornado
> > >
> > > It would be nice if there where an agenda around before the meeting takes place...
> > >
> > > regards, hussayn
> > >
> > > Kelly Rued schrieb:
> > > > My SL name is Lotte Twilight. I look forward to meeting Croquet users in SL.
> > > > I agree that forming a group in SL to look into cross-platform projects with
> > > > communication or some level of integrationg between Croquet and something
> > > > like SL which is more user friendly at the moment.
> > > >
> > > > -Kelly
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>

> I will be back in SL in a few hours and plan to create a SL Group
> "altVR" (alternatives to SL, including Croquet, Multiverse etc).
> I must be honest and say that I have some doubts about Croquet,
> However, lets discuss in SL.
> G.
>
> On 2/2/07, Hussayn Dabbous <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> hy there.
>>
>> yes, would be interesting to make a gettogether in SL.
>> i too own an island there, currently setting up a developers camp and
>> software related trade shows and so on. Currently the island is a big
>> mess,
>> much construction, lousy place to meet ;-) so lets take giulio's
>> initiative
>> up and go to his place. sounds great.
>>
>> It turns out to be rather unhandy that people have different names in
>> RL and SL.
>> i always loose track, who is who in the game. So what about collecting
>> an invitation
>> list here, where everybody drops his first name/second name ...
>>
>> so i'll start it right now:
>>
>> real life name              SL name
>> Hussayn dabbous             Hussayn Salomon
>> Kelly Rued                  Lotte Twilight
>> Giulio Prisco               Giulio Perhaps
>> Kaan Bingöl                 Kaan Tornado
>>
>> It would be nice if there where an agenda around before the meeting
>> takes place...
>>
>> regards, hussayn
>>
>> Kelly Rued schrieb:
>> > My SL name is Lotte Twilight. I look forward to meeting Croquet
>> users in SL.
>> > I agree that forming a group in SL to look into cross-platform
>> projects with
>> > communication or some level of integrationg between Croquet and
>> something
>> > like SL which is more user friendly at the moment.
>> >
>> > -Kelly
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>

> hi, folks;
>
> hmm. It looks like all of us have doubts about SL, but we are running around
> right now inside SL having fun, making contacts, business, doing all sorts of
> unbelievable things TODAY. And i do not know about any other virtual world
> right now where this is possible to such an extend as we can do there.
>
> So rather instead of discussing alternatives to SL i prefer to discuss where
> SL does fail to support us and whether Croquet can play a role there.
> So i want to see a discussion about what people want eventually to achieve,
> what is missing in SL to reach the goals and whether things can be improved easily.
> Only then it makes sense to me to talk about how Croquet would fit in place.
>
> So for me its all about understanding SL to make Croquet a better world.
> But not looking for something "better", than SL to replace it. im still dreaming
> of parallel metaverses interconnected via portals or teleport. Where SL takes
> its role maybe as sotial life platform, other virtual universes e.g. based upon
> Croquet or others show up as they are needed. That sounds like a vision!
>
> Finally i dislike the idea to be member of an SL-group that thinks about how
> to avoid SL. Isn't that a bit unfair? so we could meet without placing a group.
> maybe eventually that makes sense. But not before it becomes clear whats up...
>
> just my 2 cents. If you think my doubts are pointless, go ahead and create the
> group. But you may rethink the name ;-)
>
> Nevertheless id like to join the meeting .
>
> regards, hussayn
>
>
> Giulio Prisco schrieb:
> > I will be back in SL in a few hours and plan to create a SL Group
> > "altVR" (alternatives to SL, including Croquet, Multiverse etc).
> > I must be honest and say that I have some doubts about Croquet,
> > However, lets discuss in SL.
> > G.
> >
> > On 2/2/07, Hussayn Dabbous <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> hy there.
> >>
> >> yes, would be interesting to make a gettogether in SL.
> >> i too own an island there, currently setting up a developers camp and
> >> software related trade shows and so on. Currently the island is a big
> >> mess,
> >> much construction, lousy place to meet ;-) so lets take giulio's
> >> initiative
> >> up and go to his place. sounds great.
> >>
> >> It turns out to be rather unhandy that people have different names in
> >> RL and SL.
> >> i always loose track, who is who in the game. So what about collecting
> >> an invitation
> >> list here, where everybody drops his first name/second name ...
> >>
> >> so i'll start it right now:
> >>
> >> real life name              SL name
> >> Hussayn dabbous             Hussayn Salomon
> >> Kelly Rued                  Lotte Twilight
> >> Giulio Prisco               Giulio Perhaps
> >> Kaan Bingöl                 Kaan Tornado
> >>
> >> It would be nice if there where an agenda around before the meeting
> >> takes place...
> >>
> >> regards, hussayn
> >>
> >> Kelly Rued schrieb:
> >> > My SL name is Lotte Twilight. I look forward to meeting Croquet
> >> users in SL.
> >> > I agree that forming a group in SL to look into cross-platform
> >> projects with
> >> > communication or some level of integrationg between Croquet and
> >> something
> >> > like SL which is more user friendly at the moment.
> >> >
> >> > -Kelly
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

> hi, folks;
>
> hmm. It looks like all of us have doubts about SL, but we are running around
> right now inside SL having fun, making contacts, business, doing all sorts of
> unbelievable things TODAY. And i do not know about any other virtual world
> right now where this is possible to such an extend as we can do there.
>
> So rather instead of discussing alternatives to SL i prefer to discuss where
> SL does fail to support us and whether Croquet can play a role there.
> So i want to see a discussion about what people want eventually to achieve,
> what is missing in SL to reach the goals and whether things can be improved easily.
> Only then it makes sense to me to talk about how Croquet would fit in place.
>
> So for me its all about understanding SL to make Croquet a better world.
> But not looking for something "better", than SL to replace it. im still dreaming
> of parallel metaverses interconnected via portals or teleport. Where SL takes
> its role maybe as sotial life platform, other virtual universes e.g. based upon
> Croquet or others show up as they are needed. That sounds like a vision!
>
> Finally i dislike the idea to be member of an SL-group that thinks about how
> to avoid SL. Isn't that a bit unfair? so we could meet without placing a group.
> maybe eventually that makes sense. But not before it becomes clear whats up...
>
> just my 2 cents. If you think my doubts are pointless, go ahead and create the
> group. But you may rethink the name ;-)
>
> Nevertheless id like to join the meeting .
>
> regards, hussayn
>
>
> Giulio Prisco schrieb:
> > I will be back in SL in a few hours and plan to create a SL Group
> > "altVR" (alternatives to SL, including Croquet, Multiverse etc).
> > I must be honest and say that I have some doubts about Croquet,
> > However, lets discuss in SL.
> > G.
> >
> > On 2/2/07, Hussayn Dabbous <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> hy there.
> >>
> >> yes, would be interesting to make a gettogether in SL.
> >> i too own an island there, currently setting up a developers camp and
> >> software related trade shows and so on. Currently the island is a big
> >> mess,
> >> much construction, lousy place to meet ;-) so lets take giulio's
> >> initiative
> >> up and go to his place. sounds great.
> >>
> >> It turns out to be rather unhandy that people have different names in
> >> RL and SL.
> >> i always loose track, who is who in the game. So what about collecting
> >> an invitation
> >> list here, where everybody drops his first name/second name ...
> >>
> >> so i'll start it right now:
> >>
> >> real life name              SL name
> >> Hussayn dabbous             Hussayn Salomon
> >> Kelly Rued                  Lotte Twilight
> >> Giulio Prisco               Giulio Perhaps
> >> Kaan Bingöl                 Kaan Tornado
> >>
> >> It would be nice if there where an agenda around before the meeting
> >> takes place...
> >>
> >> regards, hussayn
> >>
> >> Kelly Rued schrieb:
> >> > My SL name is Lotte Twilight. I look forward to meeting Croquet
> >> users in SL.
> >> > I agree that forming a group in SL to look into cross-platform
> >> projects with
> >> > communication or some level of integrationg between Croquet and
> >> something
> >> > like SL which is more user friendly at the moment.
> >> >
> >> > -Kelly
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>

> Why don't we simply use Metaverse (or MetaverseSL). Is it too broad for a group name, or is it already exist.
> Kaan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Giulio Prisco [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 2:27 PM
> To: [hidden email]; Hussayn Dabbous
> Subject: Re: Croquet vs. Secondlife regarding future development (some thoughts to share...)
>
> Sounds like a vision indeed! Of course it would be difficult to
> implement at this moment, but as all other IT technologies, metaverse
> technology is bound to move toward interoperability.
> I do not complain too much about SL, and am more optimist on its
> future now that the client has been opensourced and official
> statements on future opensourcing of the server have been made (by
> Kapor at Davos). BTW take a look at libsecondlife and opensecondlife.
> Lets decide the name of the SL group together. How about SIGmeta?
> G.
>
> On 2/2/07, Hussayn Dabbous <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > hi, folks;
> >
> > hmm. It looks like all of us have doubts about SL, but we are running around
> > right now inside SL having fun, making contacts, business, doing all sorts of
> > unbelievable things TODAY. And i do not know about any other virtual world
> > right now where this is possible to such an extend as we can do there.
> >
> > So rather instead of discussing alternatives to SL i prefer to discuss where
> > SL does fail to support us and whether Croquet can play a role there.
> > So i want to see a discussion about what people want eventually to achieve,
> > what is missing in SL to reach the goals and whether things can be improved easily.
> > Only then it makes sense to me to talk about how Croquet would fit in place.
> >
> > So for me its all about understanding SL to make Croquet a better world.
> > But not looking for something "better", than SL to replace it. im still dreaming
> > of parallel metaverses interconnected via portals or teleport. Where SL takes
> > its role maybe as sotial life platform, other virtual universes e.g. based upon
> > Croquet or others show up as they are needed. That sounds like a vision!
> >
> > Finally i dislike the idea to be member of an SL-group that thinks about how
> > to avoid SL. Isn't that a bit unfair? so we could meet without placing a group.
> > maybe eventually that makes sense. But not before it becomes clear whats up...
> >
> > just my 2 cents. If you think my doubts are pointless, go ahead and create the
> > group. But you may rethink the name ;-)
> >
> > Nevertheless id like to join the meeting .
> >
> > regards, hussayn
> >
> >
> > Giulio Prisco schrieb:
> > > I will be back in SL in a few hours and plan to create a SL Group
> > > "altVR" (alternatives to SL, including Croquet, Multiverse etc).
> > > I must be honest and say that I have some doubts about Croquet,
> > > However, lets discuss in SL.
> > > G.
> > >
> > > On 2/2/07, Hussayn Dabbous <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >> hy there.
> > >>
> > >> yes, would be interesting to make a gettogether in SL.
> > >> i too own an island there, currently setting up a developers camp and
> > >> software related trade shows and so on. Currently the island is a big
> > >> mess,
> > >> much construction, lousy place to meet ;-) so lets take giulio's
> > >> initiative
> > >> up and go to his place. sounds great.
> > >>
> > >> It turns out to be rather unhandy that people have different names in
> > >> RL and SL.
> > >> i always loose track, who is who in the game. So what about collecting
> > >> an invitation
> > >> list here, where everybody drops his first name/second name ...
> > >>
> > >> so i'll start it right now:
> > >>
> > >> real life name              SL name
> > >> Hussayn dabbous             Hussayn Salomon
> > >> Kelly Rued                  Lotte Twilight
> > >> Giulio Prisco               Giulio Perhaps
> > >> Kaan Bingöl                 Kaan Tornado
> > >>
> > >> It would be nice if there where an agenda around before the meeting
> > >> takes place...
> > >>
> > >> regards, hussayn
> > >>
> > >> Kelly Rued schrieb:
> > >> > My SL name is Lotte Twilight. I look forward to meeting Croquet
> > >> users in SL.
> > >> > I agree that forming a group in SL to look into cross-platform
> > >> projects with
> > >> > communication or some level of integrationg between Croquet and
> > >> something
> > >> > like SL which is more user friendly at the moment.
> > >> >
> > >> > -Kelly
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> >
> >
>

> My issue with SL is that I used 2 play online CTF in quake in '98 on
> ISDN with a 4MB matrox card and find that SL is appalling in
> comparison in terms of laggyness and rendering quality. I know that it
> is a vast world, hi poly avatars, yadda, yadda, yadda, but I still
> feel that it should be a lot better given the hardware I am running it
> on, the speed of my connection and the 9 years that have passed since
> my first foray into online multiplayer environments.
>
> Croquet looks very promising and although it has some serious
> deficiencies at the moment, is still heavily in beta, so I don't feel
> I can judge it too harshly yet. I haven't used any of the others
> (multiverse, etc.) and would be interested to know what people think
> of them.

> My issue with SL is that I used 2 play online CTF in quake in '98 on
> ISDN with a 4MB matrox card and find that SL is appalling in
> comparison in terms of laggyness and rendering quality. I know that it
> is a vast world, hi poly avatars, yadda, yadda, yadda, but I still
> feel that it should be a lot better given the hardware I am running it
> on, the speed of my connection and the 9 years that have passed since
> my first foray into online multiplayer environments.
>
> Croquet looks very promising and although it has some serious
> deficiencies at the moment, is still heavily in beta, so I don't feel
> I can judge it too harshly yet. I haven't used any of the others
> (multiverse, etc.) and would be interested to know what people think
> of them.

> The biggest yadda that you didn't mention explicitly is that in Quake
> the world doesn't change in the middle of a deathmatch.  All of the
> textures and models that you need are already there.  In contrast, in
> SL, the software has no idea what sort of user-created content you
> might stumble across and therefore have to download on the fly.
> That's a really big yadda :-)
>
> BTW, have any of the people in this discussion built the open source
> SL client?  How did that go?
>
> Josh
>
>
> On Feb 2, 2007, at 4:53 AM, deadgenome -.,.-*`*-.,.-*`*- wrote:
>
> > My issue with SL is that I used 2 play online CTF in quake in '98 on
> > ISDN with a 4MB matrox card and find that SL is appalling in
> > comparison in terms of laggyness and rendering quality. I know that it
> > is a vast world, hi poly avatars, yadda, yadda, yadda, but I still
> > feel that it should be a lot better given the hardware I am running it
> > on, the speed of my connection and the 9 years that have passed since
> > my first foray into online multiplayer environments.
> >
> > Croquet looks very promising and although it has some serious
> > deficiencies at the moment, is still heavily in beta, so I don't feel
> > I can judge it too harshly yet. I haven't used any of the others
> > (multiverse, etc.) and would be interested to know what people think
> > of them.
>
>