Re: Looking for good souls

> I actually still think the "one-list-for-all" is best, because even  
> if you don't understand half of what is discussed, you at least get  
> to know that more advanced topics exist.
>
> However, I can see how a newbie might be afraid of posting some  
> basic question to squeak-dev. So to get new folks to participate,  
> I'd make it explicit in the list name that it really is okay to ask  
> even the dumbest questions. How about
>
> "squeak-newbies"
>
> Can't get much more inviting than that, can it?

>
> - Bert -
>
> Am 22.04.2006 um 20:49 schrieb Hans N Beck:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> why not simply squeak-help ?
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Hans
>>
>> Am 22.04.2006 um 18:58 schrieb stéphane ducasse:
>>
>>> sounds cool.
>>>> In keeping with zen and the importance of approaching the world  
>>>> with "beginner's mind",  I like squeak-beginners.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

>> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists,
>> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering
>> basic smalltalk questions.
>> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
>> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that
>> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
>
> I actually think it would be a bad  idea  to mix using etoys  
> questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same  
> thing, not the same targeted audience).
>
> Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you  
> look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning*  
> smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code,  
> asking for help, etc.
>
> For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state.
> Apart from Squeakland  (for etoys), Squeak is  orientated  research/
> hackers which is OK   but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/
> people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly  
> research ones)
>

>
> On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote:
>
>>> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists,
>>> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and  
>>> answering
>>> basic smalltalk questions.
>>> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
>>> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that
>>> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
>>
>> I actually think it would be a bad  idea  to mix using etoys  
>> questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same  
>> thing, not the same targeted audience).
>>
>> Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you  
>> look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning*  
>> smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code,  
>> asking for help, etc.
>>
>> For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state.
>> Apart from Squeakland  (for etoys), Squeak is  orientated  
>> research/hackers which is OK   but I believe it *needs" students/
>> teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps  
>> (not mainly research ones)
>>
>
> Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these  
> educational but still technical people in the french list - as  
> there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott,  
> Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland.
>
> So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all  
> this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning  
> platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe -  
> as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course.
>
> I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more  
> subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and  
> croquet.
> Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list,  
> and isn't that what squeakland is all about?
>
> Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on  
> it either...
> Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find  
> a bit strange ;-)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Markus
>

> markus
>
> I just thought that lot of people in squeakland are not really
> programmers at the low level,
> but more into using etoy. May be I'm wrong?
>
> Stef
>
> On 23 avr. 06, at 11:59, Markus Gaelli wrote:
>
>>
>> On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote:
>>
>>>> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of  
>>>> lists,
>>>> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and
>>>> answering
>>>> basic smalltalk questions.
>>>> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
>>>> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is  
>>>> that
>>>> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
>>>
>>> I actually think it would be a bad  idea  to mix using etoys
>>> questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same
>>> thing, not the same targeted audience).
>>>
>>> Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you
>>> look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning*
>>> smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code,
>>> asking for help, etc.
>>>
>>> For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state.
>>> Apart from Squeakland  (for etoys), Squeak is  orientated
>>> research/hackers which is OK   but I believe it *needs" students/
>>> teachers/people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps
>>> (not mainly research ones)
>>>
>>
>> Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these
>> educational but still technical people in the french list - as
>> there are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott,
>> Bert, Yoshiki and others in squeakland.
>>
>> So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all
>> this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning
>> platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe -
>> as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course.
>>
>> I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more
>> subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and
>> croquet.
>> Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list,
>> and isn't that what squeakland is all about?
>>
>> Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on
>> it either...
>> Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find
>> a bit strange ;-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Markus
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

>On Apr 23, 2006, at 11:16 AM, francois schnell wrote:
>
> >> On 23/04/06, Markus Gaelli <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> I also think it is important not to end up with a plethora of lists,
> >> so my suggestion is to reuse squeakland for also posing and answering
> >> basic smalltalk questions.
> >> - Kim, would it be ok to ask smalltalk questions on squeakland?
> >> I think one factor of the success of the french squeak list, is that
> >> it focuses on education, be it with etoys or smalltalk.
> >
> > I actually think it would be a bad  idea  to mix using etoys
> > questions with finding your way in the class browser (not the same
> > thing, not the same targeted audience).
> >
> > Concerning the french Squeak-list, which is a good list, if you
> > look closely you won't see a lot people actually *learning*
> > smalltalk : giving example of problem they have with their code,
> > asking for help, etc.
> >
> > For the moment the Squeak lists reflect its community state.
> > Apart from Squeakland  (for etoys), Squeak is  orientated  research/
> > hackers which is OK   but I believe it *needs" students/teachers/
> > people *learning* Squeak to produce useful tools-apps (not mainly
> > research ones)
> >
>
>Exactly. With you, Hillaire, Stef, Serge and others we have these
>educational but still technical people in the french list - as there
>are some willing and helpful old time squeakers like Scott, Bert,
>Yoshiki and others in squeakland.
>
>So I actually don't understand why we should not strive to get all
>this people together who are interested in Squeak as a learning
>platform, be it for smalltalk, etoys and the rest of the universe -
>as long as there is some interest to keep squeakland of course.
>
>I don't think we are enough to allow us to split into more and more
>subgroups, think about the currently quite quiet lists of tweak and
>croquet.
>Instead we better join forces in some "squeak and learning" list, and
>isn't that what squeakland is all about?
>
>Please reply to squeakland also, there is not too much traffic on it
>either...
>Or maybe neither you nor Stef are registered there, which I'd find a
>bit strange ;-)
>
>Cheers,
>
>Markus
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

>Hi Stef,
>
>The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image)  
>currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This is  
>correct.
>Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit for  
>education of object oriented programmers nubs.
>
>Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not be  
>part of the squeakland-image?
>Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which beams  
>the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching environment?
>
>  
>

>What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not so  
>serious.
>
>I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of Squeak  
>for and in education, and this would include both etoys and smalltalk.
>And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already lots  
>of good souls there, who do focus on education.
>Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can learn  
>a lot from the etoys paradigm.
>
>  
>

>I'd be _very_ interested (and surprised) if _any_ schools in the U.K.
>are showing interest in Squeak! I'd be particularly interested in the
>comments of any U.K. teachers, or school technicians (like myself),
>regarding Squeak in primary or secondary education. As I've mentioned
>before - if it aint in the curriculum, it doesn't even get a passing
>consideration. In my experience, in a leading independent Secondary
>School, saving a Word document or Powerpoint presentation on a floppy is
>as technical as it gets! I wish someone on this list who's a U.K.
>teacher would pipe up and prove me wrong!
>
>Jim Ford
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

>I'd be _very_ interested (and surprised) if _any_ schools in the U.K.
>are showing interest in Squeak! I'd be particularly interested in the
>comments of any U.K. teachers, or school technicians (like myself),
>regarding Squeak in primary or secondary education. As I've mentioned
>before - if it aint in the curriculum, it doesn't even get a passing
>consideration. In my experience, in a leading independent Secondary
>School, saving a Word document or Powerpoint presentation on a floppy is
>as technical as it gets! I wish someone on this list who's a U.K.
>teacher would pipe up and prove me wrong!
>
>Jim Ford
>_______________________________________________
>Squeakland mailing list
>[hidden email]
>http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

> Hi Jim,
>
> I can't speak for any Schools but my University here in the UK has  
> a keen interest in Squeak.
> My understanding is that they plan to work with Schools possibly  
> doing workshops to promote interest in computing primarily  
> programming ( but don't quote me on that).
>
> I have just completed my Honours project based on Squeak. E-toys  
> for the classroom. Which was to develop a set of interactive  
> lessons to introduce children (late primary/early secondary) to the  
> basic ideas of object oriented programming. I also know of two  
> other students who are doing something similar for different age  
> groups and I think one of them may even be using Alice.
>
> I think Squeak is a great educational tool and before taking on  
> this project I had never heard of it. So perhaps raising awareness  
> would help. Or for someone like ourselves to take the initiative to  
> introduce squeak to Schools and Universities. I have an interest in  
> teaching and would most definitely use Squeak again given the  
> opportunity.
>
> Regards
>
> Kelly
>
>
>
>
> On 24/04/06, Jim Ford <[hidden email]> wrote: I'd  
> be _very_ interested (and surprised) if _any_ schools in the U.K.
> are showing interest in Squeak! I'd be particularly interested in the
> comments of any U.K. teachers, or school technicians (like myself),
> regarding Squeak in primary or secondary education. As I've mentioned
> before - if it aint in the curriculum, it doesn't even get a passing
> consideration. In my experience, in a leading independent Secondary
> School, saving a Word document or Powerpoint presentation on a  
> floppy is
> as technical as it gets! I wish someone on this list who's a U.K.
> teacher would pipe up and prove me wrong!
>
> Jim Ford
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland
>
> _______________________________________________
> Squeakland mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://squeakland.org/mailman/listinfo/squeakland

> Hi all,
>
>
>
> Markus Gaelli wrote:
>
>> Hi Stef,
>>
>> The squeakland website and image (both the image and the image)  
>> currently does not fit for tool building smalltalk learners. This  
>> is  correct.
>> Likewise the geeky and technical image of squeak-dev does not fit  
>> for  education of object oriented programmers nubs.
>>
>> Your tutorial in squeak 3.8 image helps here. Why should this not  
>> be  part of the squeakland-image?
>> Why shouldn't we have a button in the squeakland image which  
>> beams  the newbie over the fence into a good smalltalk teaching  
>> environment?
>>
>>
> I even didn't know the squeak-dev image, but this last question  
> seems a good one. Most of the time Squeak has been oriented toward  
> childs, and I mean, really young childs, so what about "a system  
> for children of all ages"?. I'm trying to use Squeak with a pretty  
> eclectic groups of students in university (the only thing they  
> share is that all them are pregrade students) and I come to squeak  
> after having  previous experience with Scheme and Python (that were  
> previous sucessfull experience with students with a more common  
> background and interest in "Computer Science", which I prefer to  
> call "Informatics"[1]). It was a pretty good thing to choose Squeak  
> this time, I'm proud of that choice and I will stick to it in the  
> future. This construction was not an easy one and is still being  
> made. We need more content that can be used for the students  
> profile I talked before, here in LatinAmerica, and we're trying to  
> produce a selection of lectures and in the end some kind of  
> original material.
>
> [1] http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/informatics.shtml
>
> Now we can even make a little exploration of E-toys, but my feeling  
> is that the time is comming when we need to start learnings and  
> asking questions about Smalltalk.
>
>> What I like about the french list, is that this distinction is not  
>> so  serious.
>>
>> I'd like to have one english speaking list about the use of  
>> Squeak  for and in education, and this would include both etoys  
>> and smalltalk.
>> And I suggested to use squeakland for this, as there are already  
>> lots  of good souls there, who do focus on education.
>> Actually I think that open minded future software engineers can  
>> learn  a lot from the etoys paradigm.
>>
>>
> I'm agree with this also. I think that both themes are not disjoint  
> and is a bridge for making "a system for children of all ages".  
> Sorry if this mail is taking too long, but I will try to talk more  
> about bridges and my previous experience teaching "Introduction to  
> Informatics" (anyway I read all of you a lot, so its time for  
> revenge :-P )
>
> In that course we try to make a first exploration of informatics  
> from the point of view of a "first in width" instead of the  
> classical one (at least here), the "first in depth" (you know, the  
> one where the students firs encounter with informatics is  
> procedural structured programming, in C/C++, then Object Oriented  
> Programming, In Java/.Net, then Data Base, etc... and in the end of  
> their career studies they come with some kind of revelation and  
> they join the pieces and say "Ohhh this is informatics"). In our  
> first in width approach we try to know something about story,  
> social context, subfields in a panoramic way and the course then  
> goes to programming (because they need to being motivated and  
> prepared about the "now in depth" approach of the following  
> courses). In my previous semesters I tried to follow the path  
> proposed by the people of Teach Scheme Project, about:
>
> 1) Keep away from Machine Details (C/C++ is not enougth far from a  
> beginer point of view in my student and teacher experience) and
>
> 2) Focus on correctness instead of eficiency (focus on program  
> desing).
>
> and they key was the K.I.S.S. principle (Keep It Simple  
> Sintactically). Was really nice to see all the class having their  
> first program working and understood. And the teach scheme project  
> has a emphasis on learned oriented programming environments, so was  
> nice to see programming seeing as a "liberal art" instead of  
> something teached for programers by programers (in the same way  
> that mathematics is not only for mathematicians). To make a long  
> story short, then I probed python because it maintain the same  
> K.I.S.S. principle and will be more like the program languages they  
> will find or have found in the rest of ther studies. That was nice  
> if all the people were students of informatics but...
>
> This semester I have and eclectic group (the course was made an  
> open one), people from biology, informatics, engeenering,  
> nutrition, some of them are just starting their studies, some of  
> them were finishing them... and scheme and python were not the  
> solution for that group. The programming environment was  
> "deprived"... was something like a "wordpad with sintactical  
> hightlighting"... their motivations where different, so I need to  
> appeal to a shared cultural background this time, and computers  
> where nice multimedia, connected, feature rich machine for them. In  
> that context Squek/Smalltalk was the answer. It provides a bridge  
> from computers in the world to computers in the classroom, and  
> different people were more motivated.
>
> Now we need to start to make bridges from computers in the classrom  
> to programming as a part of a scientific discipline and even part  
> of life, and young children materials are not filling the gap for  
> my students. We need to make a bridge between our classroom and  
> your community... that's the reason why I'm here and I hope you  
> help me.
>
>> I also made the experience that people learn Smalltalk much  
>> faster,  when they have been introduced to EToys first.
>>
>>
> Thanks for the advice. I will try to follow it, this week.
>
>> Finally I have the feeling that the lack of technical questions/  
>> discussions about Smalltalk on squeakland hindered the development  
>> of  EToys.
>>
>>
> I feel that few bridges between communities are making education a  
> mission impossible... but I have made a log mail already...
>
> Cheers,
>
> Offray
>
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