Re: [OFFLIST][ANN] 7061 = Squeak 3.9 final

I think that this email is worth getting public because some other  
people
may have the same wishes/idea feedback....and need for clarification.


> Hi Stephane,
>
> I personally dislike your heavy reactions on the mailinglist as in
> the answer to Tim (or the hard discussion with Andreas about
> ExtensiblePrimitives last month).
>
> Note that many people reading this list/or the archive and we should
> stop getting too personal or negative in the postings.

I'm not getting personal. I would be getting personal this would be  
idiot.
and I would be much much harsher than that and idiot.

But even tim need feedback when he is getting over...

If you think that lukas was not nice let him know.
I really enjoyed the discussion we got with andy and I can read it  
again to
improve my taste on pragma design.

> We all know about your investments into Squeak - but others invest
> their time too (or have invested in the past) - even if this is  
> sometimes
> less visible.

This is not the point.
- People were complaining about the fact that the release is not out,
- then that this should not be final,
- then after the did not even care to open an image over the last month.
So at one point we should do something (see below)

> We can assume Tim (and any person listening or posting
> on the mailinglist) is interested in Squeak or related projects and  
> want
> to move it forward. We all have a different views and wishes for the
> future of Squeak...

> I agree with Tim: the "first impression" of Sq3.8 Full image and it's
> current successor RC1 for 3.9 is very different. While the "Welcome
> workspace" in 3.8 explained a little bit about the Squeak software and
> project itself and provided some small examples to whet one's appetite
> - the workspaces in 3.9 is currently more or less a message from you
> and Marcus what in particular has changed and how to contribute.


Sure.
This image is not a public one for non-dev.
This is not the equivalent of Squeak3.8 welcome with the Squeak slow  
logo.
This image is the basic image on top of which people can build the  
other image.s
We always said that. I said that I would be responsible of the  
developer image
but damien did it. Now we did not want to release a final image even  
for programmers
that has not a simple welcome.

We see it more like
RC1
        -> squeak-dev
        -> squeak-fun

Now we will not do squeak-fun but I encourage people to build it.
so why do not you or a group of people take the image and propose  
something. :)


> So the questions here should be:
> 1. how can we build a better first user experience in the current  
> RC image
>    to help people getting into Squeak. (provide a better welcome  
> workspace, ...)

Propose something.

> 2. Is it worth the investment to (re)build some included/
> downloadable morphic
>    projects for beginners. If so who is able to contribute.

Some of them are terrible. Do you think that a ugly clock which we  
cannot move the edge
is fun. So I would redo them from scratch and with new stuff :)

> 3. can we explain what has changed under the hood so people see  
> Squeak is moving
>    forward without getting to detailed about included fixes/patches/
> mantis IDs/
>    technical stuff

Could be an idea.

> 4. How can we update/migrate "add on" packages to Squeak  
> (especially since the
>    website tells that we "have 600 addon packages available for  
> single click download
>    and installation"

Make a list of the broken one and contact the authors so that they  
fix them if they want.
This would be a great initiative

> 5. What kind of distributions will be provided on the download site  
> (BasicImage,
>   FullImage, DeveloperImage, ...) - can we have specific setups  
> (Mac, Windows installer)

I would have
RC1
        - Squeak-Fun
        - Squeak-Dev
       
And we need distribution in full (including the sources) and for Mac,  
windows

> I can help to build a downloadable Setup.exe for Win32 using the  
> free NSIS installer - as soon as
> a decision is made about the VM/image combination. I will also try  
> to help checking the
> packages (as you have seen from my posting to Diego about ODBC)

yes.
So having a wiki page with the list of all the packages that need to  
be fixed would be great.

Stef

stephane ducasse wrote:
> This image is not a public one for non-dev.
> This is not the equivalent of Squeak3.8 welcome with the Squeak slow logo.
> This image is the basic image on top of which people can build the other
> image. We always said that.

Actually, Marcus (which I believe is included in the "we" above) said
-in response to my request of removing the FFI- the precise opposite:

http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2006-August/106718.html

<quote>
   But honestly don't regard this is a "basic" image... it has lots and
   lots of stuff in it that is not needed, FFI is just one of these.
   We will not do a "full" image this time (people can just install the
   packages they want, and a 'full' image would have needed
   to be done and tested months ago).

   So just consider it to be the new "full" image...
</quote>

Cheers,
   - Andreas

Do we need to cool down the whole squeak community engine and relax a bit?

Andreas Raab a écrit :

Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
> Do we need to cool down the whole squeak community engine and relax a bit?

Not really much to cool down over facts, is there? ;-) I'm merely
correcting the obvious mistake of claiming that "we always said that".
Provenly incorrect, indeed the claim to the opposite was a *major*
argument for including a number of (otherwise hardly to justify)
packages. Just like Marcus says in that message.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

Andreas Raab a écrit :
May be Marcus and Stef have different point of view on that specific topic.
Is not FFI this package to interface Squeak with external C library?

Hilaire