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Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

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Tim Mackinnon

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

Adding this to the Dev user group - is there really no solution for this? I read a few old messages from 2012 about different fonts but nothing seemed to work from what I could see.

Has everyone just been putting up with the fuzziness and got used to it? As a new Retina display user, I love the clarity in other apps and find it quite jarring in Pharo. I was going to do a brown bag session on Smalltalk with the current team I’m working with, however as they all have retina Macs, I think I may reconsider this as unless you love the language its another thing for people to throw stones at.

As Stephan mentions below, were Tobias’ changes not viable? Is there anything we can do to help get them safely in - or can I try it on an experimental branch?

Tim

> On 29 Nov 2016, at 21:02, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 29/11/16 00:34, Tim Mackinnon wrote:
>> Or is this still the same issue that’s been hanging around for a long
>> time as its hard to easily fix?
>
> Tobias Pape wrote some vm changes that solved the problem this summer, and they somehow interfered, so were reverted. I posted some pictures
> on twitter 10/11-7 of it working with both Pharo & Squeak.
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
>> Hi Guys - its been a while since I’ve had a chance to get back into some coding in Smalltalk, and took the plunge again with a new laptop and Pharo 5, however the screen is really blurry?
>>
>> Doing a google search, I can see this same question raised back in 2012, but has there been no progress in this intervening years or has a workaround not been documented for google to find? Or has everyone just got used to it, and I need to hand in there...
>>
>> I have tried using a different font - but not sure what constitutes a true-type font (are these the same as free-type mentioned in the Settings Browser?). Has anyone found a font that makes everything look crisp (I tried Helvetica but its only marginally better).
>>
>> Or is this still the same issue that’s been hanging around for a long time as its hard to easily fix?
>>
>> Tim

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

On 30 Nov 2016, at 11:23, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:

Adding this to the Dev user group - is there really no solution for this? I read a few old messages from 2012 about different fonts but nothing seemed to work from what I could see.

Has everyone just been putting up with the fuzziness and got used to it?

The majority of Pharo developers are on macOS, most of them with Retina screens. I know that we do have some problems in that area, but I personally consider the current situation acceptable.

This is a screenshot of my current work image (still Pharo 4) in actual size:

Is this (too) fuzzy for you ?

As a new Retina display user, I love the clarity in other apps and find it quite jarring in Pharo. I was going to do a brown bag session on Smalltalk with the current team I’m working with, however as they all have retina Macs, I think I may reconsider this as unless you love the language its another thing for people to throw stones at.

As Stephan mentions below, were Tobias’ changes not viable? Is there anything we can do to help get them safely in - or can I try it on an experimental branch?

Tim

On 29 Nov 2016, at 21:02, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 29/11/16 00:34, Tim Mackinnon wrote:
Or is this still the same issue that’s been hanging around for a long
time as its hard to easily fix?

Tobias Pape wrote some vm changes that solved the problem this summer, and they somehow interfered, so were reverted. I posted some pictures
on twitter 10/11-7 of it working with both Pharo & Squeak.

Stephan

Hi Guys - its been a while since I’ve had a chance to get back into some coding in Smalltalk, and took the plunge again with a new laptop and Pharo 5, however the screen is really blurry?

Doing a google search, I can see this same question raised back in 2012, but has there been no progress in this intervening years or has a workaround not been documented for google to find? Or has everyone just got used to it, and I need to hand in there...

I have tried using a different font - but not sure what constitutes a true-type font (are these the same as free-type mentioned in the Settings Browser?). Has anyone found a font that makes everything look crisp (I tried Helvetica but its only marginally better).

Or is this still the same issue that’s been hanging around for a long time as its hard to easily fix?

Tim

kilon.alios

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

looks ok to me

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:35 PM Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 30 Nov 2016, at 11:23, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:

Adding this to the Dev user group - is there really no solution for this? I read a few old messages from 2012 about different fonts but nothing seemed to work from what I could see.

Has everyone just been putting up with the fuzziness and got used to it?

The majority of Pharo developers are on macOS, most of them with Retina screens. I know that we do have some problems in that area, but I personally consider the current situation acceptable.

This is a screenshot of my current work image (still Pharo 4) in actual size:

Is this (too) fuzzy for you ?

As a new Retina display user, I love the clarity in other apps and find it quite jarring in Pharo. I was going to do a brown bag session on Smalltalk with the current team I’m working with, however as they all have retina Macs, I think I may reconsider this as unless you love the language its another thing for people to throw stones at.

As Stephan mentions below, were Tobias’ changes not viable? Is there anything we can do to help get them safely in - or can I try it on an experimental branch?

Tim

On 29 Nov 2016, at 21:02, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 29/11/16 00:34, Tim Mackinnon wrote:
Or is this still the same issue that’s been hanging around for a long
time as its hard to easily fix?

Tobias Pape wrote some vm changes that solved the problem this summer, and they somehow interfered, so were reverted. I posted some pictures
on twitter 10/11-7 of it working with both Pharo & Squeak.

Stephan

Hi Guys - its been a while since I’ve had a chance to get back into some coding in Smalltalk, and took the plunge again with a new laptop and Pharo 5, however the screen is really blurry?

Doing a google search, I can see this same question raised back in 2012, but has there been no progress in this intervening years or has a workaround not been documented for google to find? Or has everyone just got used to it, and I need to hand in there...

I have tried using a different font - but not sure what constitutes a true-type font (are these the same as free-type mentioned in the Settings Browser?). Has anyone found a font that makes everything look crisp (I tried Helvetica but its only marginally better).

Or is this still the same issue that’s been hanging around for a long time as its hard to easily fix?

Tim

Screen Shot 2016-11-30 at 11.32.53.png (598K) Download Attachment

Martin McClure-2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 11/30/2016 02:34 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
> This is a screenshot of my current work image (still Pharo 4) in
> actual size:
>
This must not have come through correctly. If this were actual size
(i.e. pixel-for-pixel) it would be too small to read on a retina display.

Regards,

-Martin

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

> On 30 Nov 2016, at 18:24, Martin McClure <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 11/30/2016 02:34 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> This is a screenshot of my current work image (still Pharo 4) in actual size:
>>
> This must not have come through correctly. If this were actual size (i.e. pixel-for-pixel) it would be too small to read on a retina display.

This is always tricky.

If I take a full screen screen shot on my MacBook Pro Retina 13-inch, I get a PNG 2560x1600 144 pixels/inch.

The screenshot that I posted earlier was a partial one, a PNG of 1796x1256 144 pixels/inch.

What I see here, http://forum.world.st/attachment/4925242/0/Screen%20Shot%202016-11-30%20at%2011.32.53.png seems to be what I posted.

On a non-retina screen it probably looks way too big.

> Regards,
>
> -Martin
>
>

Martin McClure-2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

On 11/30/2016 10:24 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
> The screenshot that I posted earlier was a partial one, a PNG of 1796x1256 144 pixels/inch.
>
> What I see here,http://forum.world.st/attachment/4925242/0/Screen%20Shot%202016-11-30%20at%2011.32.53.png seems to be what I posted.

Thanks. Upon investigation, it was my Thunderbird email client that led
me astray -- what it claimed was full size was nowhere near full size.
Following your link or saving the image in the email and viewing it with
a proper image viewer give better results.

Looking at the full-size image, it is quite obvious that it's been
scaled up from a lower-resolution image, and I can see how those with
sharp vision would find it to be distressingly blurry on a retina display.

Regards,

-Martin

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

> On 30 Nov 2016, at 20:13, Martin McClure <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 11/30/2016 10:24 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> The screenshot that I posted earlier was a partial one, a PNG of 1796x1256 144 pixels/inch.
>>
>> What I see here,http://forum.world.st/attachment/4925242/0/Screen%20Shot%202016-11-30%20at%2011.32.53.png seems to be what I posted.
>
> Thanks. Upon investigation, it was my Thunderbird email client that led me astray -- what it claimed was full size was nowhere near full size. Following your link or saving the image in the email and viewing it with a proper image viewer give better results.

OK

> Looking at the full-size image, it is quite obvious that it's been scaled up from a lower-resolution image, and I can see how those with sharp vision would find it to be distressingly blurry on a retina display.

Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young people being more sensitive to it.

> Regards,
>
> -Martin
>
>

Tim Mackinnon

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

It could be I don't have something obvious setup correctly - but I notice a marked difference between the text in my email client which is super crisp and then when I excitedly loaded up a new Pharo5 on the new laptop and discovered it markedly fuzzy. Enough so that it got me searching for solutions for it

I should try taking side by side screenshots though - as maybe someone might spot my mistake or maybe it might convince me that I'm imagining it (it's a new laptop that I'm just getting used to).

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

> On 30 Nov 2016, at 19:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
>> On 30 Nov 2016, at 20:13, Martin McClure <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On 11/30/2016 10:24 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>>> The screenshot that I posted earlier was a partial one, a PNG of 1796x1256 144 pixels/inch.
>>>
>>> What I see here,http://forum.world.st/attachment/4925242/0/Screen%20Shot%202016-11-30%20at%2011.32.53.png seems to be what I posted.
>>
>> Thanks. Upon investigation, it was my Thunderbird email client that led me astray -- what it claimed was full size was nowhere near full size. Following your link or saving the image in the email and viewing it with a proper image viewer give better results.
>
> OK
>
>> Looking at the full-size image, it is quite obvious that it's been scaled up from a lower-resolution image, and I can see how those with sharp vision would find it to be distressingly blurry on a retina display.
>
> Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young people being more sensitive to it.
>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Martin
>
>

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 30/11/16 20:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
> Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some
> sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but
> my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young
> people being more sensitive to it.

Nah, it just is blurry. I've played a bit with krono's vm, and it is
a very noticable difference. Much better readable and less tiring.
And you mostly only notice when trying to go back from HiDPI to low.

Stephan

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

> On 1 Dec 2016, at 00:53, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 30/11/16 20:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some
>> sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but
>> my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young
>> people being more sensitive to it.
>
> Nah, it just is blurry. I've played a bit with krono's vm, and it is
> a very noticable difference. Much better readable and less tiring.
> And you mostly only notice when trying to go back from HiDPI to low.
>
> Stephan

OK then. Why was this change no merged then ?
Maybe it is a lot slower ?
Is this VM available somewhere ?

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

On 01/12/16 07:25, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
> OK then. Why was this change no merged then ?
> Maybe it is a lot slower ?
> Is this VM available somewhere ?

It was reverted, as that vm had more stability problems.

Stephan

Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

> On 1 Dec 2016, at 08:06, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 01/12/16 07:25, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> OK then. Why was this change no merged then ?
>> Maybe it is a lot slower ?
>> Is this VM available somewhere ?
>
> It was reverted, as that vm had more stability problems.

That is very general ;-)

From a distance (not knowing anything about it), it seems that HDi support was considered not important. Else more people would work on it to fix its teething problems, no ?

> Stephan
>
>
>

philippeback

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

Is there anything in the VM code beyond having to move more pixels around for the the bit blitting?

macOS VM has the display split into zones and updates as needed. Of course, there are more bits to bang to the display but is this a reason for not having that working?

I have no retina display, so cannot even try this out.

Phil

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 8:18 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 1 Dec 2016, at 08:06, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 01/12/16 07:25, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> OK then. Why was this change no merged then ?
>> Maybe it is a lot slower ?
>> Is this VM available somewhere ?
>
> It was reverted, as that vm had more stability problems.

That is very general ;-)

From a distance (not knowing anything about it), it seems that HDi support was considered not important. Else more people would work on it to fix its teething problems, no ?

> Stephan
>
>
>

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

In reply to this post by Sven Van Caekenberghe-2

On 01/12/16 08:18, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
> From a distance (not knowing anything about it), it seems that HDi
> support was considered not important. Else more people would work on
> it to fix its teething problems, no ?

No, it was consider very important, second only to spur (64).

Stephan

Tim Mackinnon

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

In reply to this post by Stephan Eggermont-3

To give people a better view of this - here is the Pharo image next to the mail client (I’m not sure if the screen captures really do it justice as when you scale them down in a picture everything looks fine - however if I zoom into that bottom corner in a second image it might make it more obvious).

I think this has been a problem brewing for a while, but if most contributors don’t have retina screens (although they are getting much more common now) then I guess it goes unnoticed. I suspect in the next few years, as people start replacing machines - it will gain more visibility.

I find it quite distracting when switching from mail or other apps to Pharo and then you notice the fuzziness. Maybe if you spend a few hours in the code you might adjust.

Tim

The following is the bottom corner zoom in to show what I mean by fuzzy:

On 30 Nov 2016, at 23:53, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 30/11/16 20:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some
sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but
my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young
people being more sensitive to it.

Nah, it just is blurry. I've played a bit with krono's vm, and it is
a very noticable difference. Much better readable and less tiring.
And you mostly only notice when trying to go back from HiDPI to low.

Stephan

kilon.alios

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

Yes I noticed the difference but for me its ok. I dont have a retina display though I am mostly a imac/ipad mid user but even if I did , it would be a low priority for me to fix. I rather have pharo developers focus on bootstraping the pharo image than this.

On Thu, Dec 1, 2016 at 3:45 PM Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:

To give people a better view of this - here is the Pharo image next to the mail client (I’m not sure if the screen captures really do it justice as when you scale them down in a picture everything looks fine - however if I zoom into that bottom corner in a second image it might make it more obvious).

I think this has been a problem brewing for a while, but if most contributors don’t have retina screens (although they are getting much more common now) then I guess it goes unnoticed. I suspect in the next few years, as people start replacing machines - it will gain more visibility.

I find it quite distracting when switching from mail or other apps to Pharo and then you notice the fuzziness. Maybe if you spend a few hours in the code you might adjust.

Tim

The following is the bottom corner zoom in to show what I mean by fuzzy:

On 30 Nov 2016, at 23:53, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 30/11/16 20:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some
sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but
my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young
people being more sensitive to it.

Nah, it just is blurry. I've played a bit with krono's vm, and it is
a very noticable difference. Much better readable and less tiring.
And you mostly only notice when trying to go back from HiDPI to low.

Stephan

PastedGraphic-2.png (928K) Download Attachment

Uko2

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

In reply to this post by Tim Mackinnon

Hi Tim,

it’s coming, but it needs some time: https://twitter.com/aliakseisyrel/status/812065956856025088

On 1 Dec 2016, at 14:44, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:

To give people a better view of this - here is the Pharo image next to the mail client (I’m not sure if the screen captures really do it justice as when you scale them down in a picture everything looks fine - however if I zoom into that bottom corner in a second image it might make it more obvious).

I think this has been a problem brewing for a while, but if most contributors don’t have retina screens (although they are getting much more common now) then I guess it goes unnoticed. I suspect in the next few years, as people start replacing machines - it will gain more visibility.

I find it quite distracting when switching from mail or other apps to Pharo and then you notice the fuzziness. Maybe if you spend a few hours in the code you might adjust.

Tim

The following is the bottom corner zoom in to show what I mean by fuzzy:

<PastedGraphic-2.png>
On 30 Nov 2016, at 23:53, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 30/11/16 20:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some
sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but
my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young
people being more sensitive to it.

Nah, it just is blurry. I've played a bit with krono's vm, and it is
a very noticable difference. Much better readable and less tiring.
And you mostly only notice when trying to go back from HiDPI to low.

Stephan

Stephan Eggermont-3

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

On 23/12/16 01:22, Yuriy Tymchuk wrote:
> it’s coming, but it needs some
> time: https://twitter.com/aliakseisyrel/status/812065956856025088

That is nice, and a different solution. The needed changes were
very limited, stability problems might have been resulting from
gc during bitblit.

Stephan

Tim Mackinnon

Re: [Pharo-users] Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2016?

In reply to this post by Uko2

Thanks for the update - that is exciting and gives me some hope.

What do we need to do to help bloc advance at pace?

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On 23 Dec 2016, at 01:22, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Tim,

it’s coming, but it needs some time: https://twitter.com/aliakseisyrel/status/812065956856025088

On 1 Dec 2016, at 14:44, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:

To give people a better view of this - here is the Pharo image next to the mail client (I’m not sure if the screen captures really do it justice as when you scale them down in a picture everything looks fine - however if I zoom into that bottom corner in a second image it might make it more obvious).

I think this has been a problem brewing for a while, but if most contributors don’t have retina screens (although they are getting much more common now) then I guess it goes unnoticed. I suspect in the next few years, as people start replacing machines - it will gain more visibility.

I find it quite distracting when switching from mail or other apps to Pharo and then you notice the fuzziness. Maybe if you spend a few hours in the code you might adjust.

Tim

The following is the bottom corner zoom in to show what I mean by fuzzy:

<PastedGraphic-2.png>
On 30 Nov 2016, at 23:53, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 30/11/16 20:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some
sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but
my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young
people being more sensitive to it.

Nah, it just is blurry. I've played a bit with krono's vm, and it is
a very noticable difference. Much better readable and less tiring.
And you mostly only notice when trying to go back from HiDPI to low.

Stephan

Tim Mackinnon

Pharo 5 and retina displays in 2017?

I mentioned this last year - and I’m wondering if there is any news or developments on making Pharo look better on higher end hardware like Macbook’s and Dell’s?

I keep dipping into Pharo but every time I see the blurry screen, it just takes away the shine for me (which is a bit sad)?

Is Bloc getting much traction?

Tim

On 23 Dec 2016, at 09:29, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks for the update - that is exciting and gives me some hope.

What do we need to do to help bloc advance at pace?

Tim

Sent from my iPhone

On 23 Dec 2016, at 01:22, Yuriy Tymchuk <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Tim,

it’s coming, but it needs some time: https://twitter.com/aliakseisyrel/status/812065956856025088

On 1 Dec 2016, at 14:44, Tim Mackinnon <[hidden email]> wrote:

To give people a better view of this - here is the Pharo image next to the mail client (I’m not sure if the screen captures really do it justice as when you scale them down in a picture everything looks fine - however if I zoom into that bottom corner in a second image it might make it more obvious).

I think this has been a problem brewing for a while, but if most contributors don’t have retina screens (although they are getting much more common now) then I guess it goes unnoticed. I suspect in the next few years, as people start replacing machines - it will gain more visibility.

I find it quite distracting when switching from mail or other apps to Pharo and then you notice the fuzziness. Maybe if you spend a few hours in the code you might adjust.

Tim

The following is the bottom corner zoom in to show what I mean by fuzzy:

<PastedGraphic-2.png>
On 30 Nov 2016, at 23:53, Stephan Eggermont <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 30/11/16 20:32, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
Maybe, but the thing is, you are looking at it half size, in some
sense, when it is on a Retina display. Anyway, to me, it is OK, but
my eyes are no longer what they used to be. I can imagine young
people being more sensitive to it.

Nah, it just is blurry. I've played a bit with krono's vm, and it is
a very noticable difference. Much better readable and less tiring.
And you mostly only notice when trying to go back from HiDPI to low.

Stephan