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Re: [squeak-dev] [Pharo-dev] Squeak and Tonel

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Eliot Miranda-2

Re: [squeak-dev] [Pharo-dev] Squeak and Tonel

Stephane,

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 1:33 PM Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eliot

Contrary to you I do not wish your death.

"Drop dead" does not mean I want you dead. It is English for "Dégagé".

So can you respect me?

No. I do not. I've got to the end of my attempt to deal with your destructive relationships. I am merely one in a long line including Camillo, Cl ément, and others.

One reason I can't respe3ct you is that you are not a man of your word. You sent an email 23 minutes ago that proudly declared "This is my last email sent to you.". Well done for keeping your word for 23 minutes. What's your record?

Stef

On 17 Feb 2019, at 22:30, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 1:00 PM ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi eliot

What is common in your thread is that we always look like the super emotional, or bad guys.
You never ask yourselves why Esteban left the VM mailing-list.

What is common is that I discuss technical matters (difficulties in using Tonel/git, architectural issues with developing the VM) and organizational issues (Estebans' unhelpful response regarding an option in Tonel) and you immediately personalize, do not bring up a single technical issue, and then make grand pronouncements like :this is the last email I'll send you". Laughable and sad.

And I do not see why you cannot fork Tonel to produce your own version.
Git is about distributed projects. People do that all the time. You can take Tonel and hack it to death
without having your hacks pushed back into Pharo and this is perfectly ok for us.
So Esteban has the right to say no and you have the right to hack your own version.

If you want to have some support for porting Scorch/Sista to github and loading you should ask
but asking it more nicely.

About the simulation of the UI, if you do not talk to us we cannot pay attention.
I do not see why we cannot keep a package with the image level UI for the simulator.
Now again you are talking about collaboration but you do not talk to us and you do not
listen to us so do not expect that people are willing to spend their free time to help.

I had deep concerns that the pursuit of git integration would end up splitting the Pharo and Squeak communities and indeed this is now in progress. I am utterly unmotivated by the lack of cooperation, the sheer arrogance and bullying of those that say "you will move to git/tonel or else”,

This is fun to ask Pharo not to grow up to use modern technology to manage source code under the
premisses that Squeak cannot or will not.
This is so funny how you state it. I will not comment more than that.
People around are adults and they will be able to judge by themselves.

and considering leaving VMMaker altogether.

If you leave VMMaker, let us know because we will port it to Github and make it work in Pharo.
Esteban did it several times in the past. At least this will have the benefit to clarify the situation.

I think that this is good that you tell us that you do not want to cooperate with us.
This will have at least the impact to kick our ass and pay attention to us.

The only things that are keeping me interested are Ron Teitelbaum's Terf and me pursuing a PhD on register allocation in the context of Sista/Scorch with Robert Hirshfeld's group at HPI.

Here's the kind of crap people like Ducasse throw at me:

"Eliot

At the end of the day I will probably ask the two phds that should work on language design to use truffle or pypy
because let us face it we cannot work with the Pharo VM. Else we will simply have to fork it (because we do not want to have
to jump over cuis, newspeak, squeak code constraints and I do not what) and it will be another drama is in the pico world
of the “open” smalltalk VM. "

I am so over this crap.

This is not a crap. I can restate what I said. Because of responsibility of a research team and creating a future for students. You know I’m not alone, I have quite some responsibility towards PhD students
of my group and yes I cannot make them fail by construction (or produce unadequate results)
just by imposing them to use a system with far too many constraints.

I will not ask them to work on the openSmalltalk vm directly because this is not their responsibilities
to have to jump over newspeak ifdef and others. A job of a PhD is to be able to brainstorm and create new ideas. Look at Stefan Marr (He is working on SOM or Truffle).

Now you can think that I’m an asshole, arrogant, or I do not know pick what you want.
***I do not care***. I do not have Diva syndrome I have responsibilities towards people.

I was discussing with some truffle experts and they told me that this is can be complex. I believe it.
I would like to avoid pypy for obvious reasons. So what we will probably do for their PhD is to see if we can use a light version of opensmalltalk. I do not want to ask them to jump over many things that are totally useless for them all the time.

PS: personnally I do not get why VMMaker would be the only project on earth that cannot be managed using git and Pharo.
But for us the future is Git and we will continue to build on this infrastructure.

Stef

_,,,^..^,,,_
best, Eliot

--
_,,,^..^,,,_
best, Eliot

--------------------------------------------
Stéphane Ducasse
http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr
http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org
03 59 35 87 52
Assistant: Julie Jonas
FAX 03 59 57 78 50
TEL 03 59 35 86 16
S. Ducasse - Inria
40, avenue Halley,
Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza
Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650
France

_,,,^..^,,,_

best, Eliot

Tudor Girba-2

Re: [squeak-dev] [Pharo-dev] Squeak and Tonel

Gentlemen,

I am really sad to read through this animosity. Please, let’s go back to technical discussions.

Tudor

> On Feb 17, 2019, at 10:46 PM, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Stephane,
>
> On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 1:33 PM Stéphane Ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Eliot
>
> Contrary to you I do not wish your death.
>
> "Drop dead" does not mean I want you dead. It is English for "Dégagé".
>
> So can you respect me?
>
> No. I do not. I've got to the end of my attempt to deal with your destructive relationships. I am merely one in a long line including Camillo, Cl ément, and others.
>
> One reason I can't respe3ct you is that you are not a man of your word. You sent an email 23 minutes ago that proudly declared "This is my last email sent to you.". Well done for keeping your word for 23 minutes. What's your record?
>
>
>
>
> Stef
>
>> On 17 Feb 2019, at 22:30, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 17, 2019 at 1:00 PM ducasse <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi eliot
>>
>> What is common in your thread is that we always look like the super emotional, or bad guys.
>> You never ask yourselves why Esteban left the VM mailing-list.
>>
>> What is common is that I discuss technical matters (difficulties in using Tonel/git, architectural issues with developing the VM) and organizational issues (Estebans' unhelpful response regarding an option in Tonel) and you immediately personalize, do not bring up a single technical issue, and then make grand pronouncements like :this is the last email I'll send you". Laughable and sad.
>>
>>
>> And I do not see why you cannot fork Tonel to produce your own version.
>> Git is about distributed projects. People do that all the time. You can take Tonel and hack it to death
>> without having your hacks pushed back into Pharo and this is perfectly ok for us.
>> So Esteban has the right to say no and you have the right to hack your own version.
>>
>> If you want to have some support for porting Scorch/Sista to github and loading you should ask
>> but asking it more nicely.
>>
>> About the simulation of the UI, if you do not talk to us we cannot pay attention.
>> I do not see why we cannot keep a package with the image level UI for the simulator.
>> Now again you are talking about collaboration but you do not talk to us and you do not
>> listen to us so do not expect that people are willing to spend their free time to help.
>>
>>
>>> I had deep concerns that the pursuit of git integration would end up splitting the Pharo and Squeak communities and indeed this is now in progress. I am utterly unmotivated by the lack of cooperation, the sheer arrogance and bullying of those that say "you will move to git/tonel or else”,
>>
>> This is fun to ask Pharo not to grow up to use modern technology to manage source code under the
>> premisses that Squeak cannot or will not.
>> This is so funny how you state it. I will not comment more than that.
>> People around are adults and they will be able to judge by themselves.
>>
>>> and considering leaving VMMaker altogether.
>>
>> If you leave VMMaker, let us know because we will port it to Github and make it work in Pharo.
>> Esteban did it several times in the past. At least this will have the benefit to clarify the situation.
>>
>> I think that this is good that you tell us that you do not want to cooperate with us.
>> This will have at least the impact to kick our ass and pay attention to us.
>>
>>> The only things that are keeping me interested are Ron Teitelbaum's Terf and me pursuing a PhD on register allocation in the context of Sista/Scorch with Robert Hirshfeld's group at HPI.
>>>
>>> Here's the kind of crap people like Ducasse throw at me:
>>>
>>> "Eliot
>>>
>>> At the end of the day I will probably ask the two phds that should work on language design to use truffle or pypy
>>> because let us face it we cannot work with the Pharo VM. Else we will simply have to fork it (because we do not want to have
>>> to jump over cuis, newspeak, squeak code constraints and I do not what) and it will be another drama is in the pico world
>>> of the “open” smalltalk VM. "
>>>
>>> I am so over this crap.
>>
>> This is not a crap. I can restate what I said. Because of responsibility of a research team and creating a future for students. You know I’m not alone, I have quite some responsibility towards PhD students
>> of my group and yes I cannot make them fail by construction (or produce unadequate results)
>> just by imposing them to use a system with far too many constraints.
>>
>> I will not ask them to work on the openSmalltalk vm directly because this is not their responsibilities
>> to have to jump over newspeak ifdef and others. A job of a PhD is to be able to brainstorm and create new ideas. Look at Stefan Marr (He is working on SOM or Truffle).
>>
>> Now you can think that I’m an asshole, arrogant, or I do not know pick what you want.
>> ***I do not care***. I do not have Diva syndrome I have responsibilities towards people.
>>
>> I was discussing with some truffle experts and they told me that this is can be complex. I believe it.
>> I would like to avoid pypy for obvious reasons. So what we will probably do for their PhD is to see if we can use a light version of opensmalltalk. I do not want to ask them to jump over many things that are totally useless for them all the time.
>>
>>
>> PS: personnally I do not get why VMMaker would be the only project on earth that cannot be managed using git and Pharo.
>> But for us the future is Git and we will continue to build on this infrastructure.
>>
>>
>> Stef
>>
>>>
>>> _,,,^..^,,,_
>>> best, Eliot
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> _,,,^..^,,,_
>> best, Eliot
>
> --------------------------------------------
> Stéphane Ducasse
> http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr
> http://www.synectique.eu / http://www.pharo.org
> 03 59 35 87 52
> Assistant: Julie Jonas
> FAX 03 59 57 78 50
> TEL 03 59 35 86 16
> S. Ducasse - Inria
> 40, avenue Halley,
> Parc Scientifique de la Haute Borne, Bât.A, Park Plaza
> Villeneuve d'Ascq 59650
> France
>
>
>
>
> --
> _,,,^..^,,,_
> best, Eliot

--
www.feenk.com

"The coherence of a trip is given by the clearness of the goal."