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Roassal3...What is optimal, port Athens? Athens-Cairo? or build out the Roassal3-Squeak RsBalloonFOO heirarchy

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Roassal3...What is optimal, port Athens? Athens-Cairo? or build out the Roassal3-Squeak RsBalloonFOO heirarchy

Squeak - Dev mailing list
Hi Tom (and others),

From an earlier email, you remarked that you where able to get an example up and running quickly by ignoring Athens (?) and rolling your own.

Is this approach "optimal" ?


Here is an example of things we cannot do until dependencies are resolved...heck, at the bottom of this email* is the entire Roassal install "log" that I saved when I installed the package:


You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:
I can either port the AthensCairoPathBuilder or I can move the functionality to your BalloonPathBuilder.


Since I know nothing about either, it will be equally painful to implement either, so the question becomes, which path yeilds the best results going forward?


Consider too, that "grok FFI" is on my skillset todo-list and Athens-Cairo looks like it would put a checkmark on that todo-list item.

I do not know enough to make an informed decision (I intuitively prefer to get the base right, but as we discovered with the pharo kernel bytes fiasco, that is not always possible)

Your thoughts?

cheers,

tty.



*Install log follows:

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:

This package depends on the following classes:
  PackageManifest
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  ManifestGeometryTests
  ManifestGeometryTests class>>ruleRBStringConcatenationRuleV1FalsePositive


This package depends on the following classes:
  GradientPaint
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GradientPaint>>interpolateTo:at:


This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
  AthensCairoSurface
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:cw:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcCos:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc2:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoSurface>>hasBeenFreed
  RPackage>>dependentPackages
This package depends on the following classes:
  PharoDarkTheme
  ClyBrowserToolMorph
  UITheme
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  PharoDarkTheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  RSUMLCalypso
  RSUMLCalypso>>activationPriority
  RSUMLCalypso>>applyTheme:
  RSUMLCalypso>>build
  RSUMLCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLCalypso>>limitedClasses:
  RSUMLCalypso>>tabOrder
  RSUMLClassCalypso
  RSUMLClassCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>targetClass
  RSUMLPackageCalypso
  RSUMLPackageCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>packages
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  UITheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  UITheme>>methodsLimitUML


This package depends on the following classes:
  GLMMorphicWidgetRenderer
  GLMPresentation
  GLMMorphicRenderer
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GLMMorphicRenderer>>renderRoassal3Presentation:
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer>>render:
  GLMPresentation>>roassal3
  GLMRoassal3Presentation
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>canvas
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initialize
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initializeCanvas:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>renderGlamorouslyOn:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>setUpInteractions


This package depends on the following classes:
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RPackage>>dependentPackagesWithOccurences
  RPackage>>numberOfDependenciesToward:

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPAnimationTest
  RSPAnimationTest class>>testParameters
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass:
  RSPAnimationTest>>setUp
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasic
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasicInCanvas
  RSPAnimationTest>>testDelay

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPBoundingTest
  RSPBoundingTest class>>testParameters
  RSPBoundingTest>>setUp
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDraw
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDrawBorder
  RSPBoundingTest>>testPosition
  RSPLinesTest
  RSPLinesTest class>>testParameters
  RSPLinesTest>>setUp
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPLinesTest>>testDraw
  RSPLinesTest>>testDrawMarkers

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensLineSegment
  AthensCubicSegment
  AthensCloseSegment
  AthensPathSegment
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCloseSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensCubicSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensCubicSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensCubicSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensLineSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensLineSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensPathSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
Tom Beckmann
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Re: Roassal3...What is optimal, port Athens? Athens-Cairo? or build out the Roassal3-Squeak RsBalloonFOO heirarchy

Tom Beckmann
Hi timothy,

my personal opinion is that, for Squeak, it would be more interesting to get a working implementation in Balloon going, rather than porting Athens. Having Athens-Cairo would bring higher quality graphics (as of right now), but it's also a rather large dependency that may introduce portability issues, while we know for sure that Balloon "just works". Staying with Balloon could also make running the Roassal port in some of the Squeak derivatives such as SqueakJS, GraalSqueak or RSqueak simpler than depending on FFI.

Note, however, that I have not dug deep into Athens' code, so I may be over- or underestimating the complexity it would introduce. I do know that the Balloon backend for Athens (porting which would also be an option) was very incomplete when I last looked at it.

Best,
Tom

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 2:24 PM gettimothy via Squeak-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom (and others),

From an earlier email, you remarked that you where able to get an example up and running quickly by ignoring Athens (?) and rolling your own.

Is this approach "optimal" ?


Here is an example of things we cannot do until dependencies are resolved...heck, at the bottom of this email* is the entire Roassal install "log" that I saved when I installed the package:


You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:
I can either port the AthensCairoPathBuilder or I can move the functionality to your BalloonPathBuilder.


Since I know nothing about either, it will be equally painful to implement either, so the question becomes, which path yeilds the best results going forward?


Consider too, that "grok FFI" is on my skillset todo-list and Athens-Cairo looks like it would put a checkmark on that todo-list item.

I do not know enough to make an informed decision (I intuitively prefer to get the base right, but as we discovered with the pharo kernel bytes fiasco, that is not always possible)

Your thoughts?

cheers,

tty.



*Install log follows:

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:

This package depends on the following classes:
  PackageManifest
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  ManifestGeometryTests
  ManifestGeometryTests class>>ruleRBStringConcatenationRuleV1FalsePositive


This package depends on the following classes:
  GradientPaint
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GradientPaint>>interpolateTo:at:


This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
  AthensCairoSurface
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:cw:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcCos:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc2:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoSurface>>hasBeenFreed
  RPackage>>dependentPackages
This package depends on the following classes:
  PharoDarkTheme
  ClyBrowserToolMorph
  UITheme
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  PharoDarkTheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  RSUMLCalypso
  RSUMLCalypso>>activationPriority
  RSUMLCalypso>>applyTheme:
  RSUMLCalypso>>build
  RSUMLCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLCalypso>>limitedClasses:
  RSUMLCalypso>>tabOrder
  RSUMLClassCalypso
  RSUMLClassCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>targetClass
  RSUMLPackageCalypso
  RSUMLPackageCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>packages
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  UITheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  UITheme>>methodsLimitUML


This package depends on the following classes:
  GLMMorphicWidgetRenderer
  GLMPresentation
  GLMMorphicRenderer
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GLMMorphicRenderer>>renderRoassal3Presentation:
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer>>render:
  GLMPresentation>>roassal3
  GLMRoassal3Presentation
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>canvas
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initialize
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initializeCanvas:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>renderGlamorouslyOn:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>setUpInteractions


This package depends on the following classes:
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RPackage>>dependentPackagesWithOccurences
  RPackage>>numberOfDependenciesToward:

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPAnimationTest
  RSPAnimationTest class>>testParameters
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass:
  RSPAnimationTest>>setUp
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasic
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasicInCanvas
  RSPAnimationTest>>testDelay

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPBoundingTest
  RSPBoundingTest class>>testParameters
  RSPBoundingTest>>setUp
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDraw
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDrawBorder
  RSPBoundingTest>>testPosition
  RSPLinesTest
  RSPLinesTest class>>testParameters
  RSPLinesTest>>setUp
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPLinesTest>>testDraw
  RSPLinesTest>>testDrawMarkers

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensLineSegment
  AthensCubicSegment
  AthensCloseSegment
  AthensPathSegment
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCloseSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensCubicSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensCubicSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensCubicSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensLineSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensLineSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensPathSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
Eliot Miranda-2
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Re: Roassal3...What is optimal, port Athens? Athens-Cairo? or build out the Roassal3-Squeak RsBalloonFOO heirarchy

Eliot Miranda-2
In reply to this post by Squeak - Dev mailing list
Hi Timothy,

On Oct 25, 2020, at 6:24 AM, gettimothy via Squeak-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi Tom (and others),

From an earlier email, you remarked that you where able to get an example up and running quickly by ignoring Athens (?) and rolling your own.

Is this approach "optimal" ?

No; strategically it would be a disaster.  First, as I understand it the Athens library is built above Cairo, a large foreign dependency, implemented in C, several times larger than the VM itself.  Second, Juan Vuletich is making good progress with Morphic3, a Smalltalk implementation (a Smalltalk compiler) did similar functionality, running on the GPU.  This dependency would be much like our dependency on the VM, in that it used our own technology stack , and therefore we can modify it, and do so quite quickly.

So for the moment you should roll you own or host above BitBLT until we can move to Morphic3.  This is essential.  Under no circumstances should you release something using Athens/Cairo.  If will do lasting damage to this community and its strategic direction and viability.



Here is an example of things we cannot do until dependencies are resolved...heck, at the bottom of this email* is the entire Roassal install "log" that I saved when I installed the package:


You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:
I can either port the AthensCairoPathBuilder or I can move the functionality to your BalloonPathBuilder.


Since I know nothing about either, it will be equally painful to implement either, so the question becomes, which path yeilds the best results going forward?


Consider too, that "grok FFI" is on my skillset todo-list and Athens-Cairo looks like it would put a checkmark on that todo-list item.

I do not know enough to make an informed decision (I intuitively prefer to get the base right, but as we discovered with the pharo kernel bytes fiasco, that is not always possible)

Your thoughts?

cheers,

tty.



*Install log follows:

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:

This package depends on the following classes:
  PackageManifest
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  ManifestGeometryTests
  ManifestGeometryTests class>>ruleRBStringConcatenationRuleV1FalsePositive


This package depends on the following classes:
  GradientPaint
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GradientPaint>>interpolateTo:at:


This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
  AthensCairoSurface
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:cw:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcCos:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc2:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoSurface>>hasBeenFreed
  RPackage>>dependentPackages
This package depends on the following classes:
  PharoDarkTheme
  ClyBrowserToolMorph
  UITheme
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  PharoDarkTheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  RSUMLCalypso
  RSUMLCalypso>>activationPriority
  RSUMLCalypso>>applyTheme:
  RSUMLCalypso>>build
  RSUMLCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLCalypso>>limitedClasses:
  RSUMLCalypso>>tabOrder
  RSUMLClassCalypso
  RSUMLClassCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>targetClass
  RSUMLPackageCalypso
  RSUMLPackageCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>packages
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  UITheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  UITheme>>methodsLimitUML


This package depends on the following classes:
  GLMMorphicWidgetRenderer
  GLMPresentation
  GLMMorphicRenderer
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GLMMorphicRenderer>>renderRoassal3Presentation:
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer>>render:
  GLMPresentation>>roassal3
  GLMRoassal3Presentation
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>canvas
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initialize
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initializeCanvas:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>renderGlamorouslyOn:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>setUpInteractions


This package depends on the following classes:
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RPackage>>dependentPackagesWithOccurences
  RPackage>>numberOfDependenciesToward:

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPAnimationTest
  RSPAnimationTest class>>testParameters
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass:
  RSPAnimationTest>>setUp
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasic
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasicInCanvas
  RSPAnimationTest>>testDelay

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPBoundingTest
  RSPBoundingTest class>>testParameters
  RSPBoundingTest>>setUp
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDraw
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDrawBorder
  RSPBoundingTest>>testPosition
  RSPLinesTest
  RSPLinesTest class>>testParameters
  RSPLinesTest>>setUp
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPLinesTest>>testDraw
  RSPLinesTest>>testDrawMarkers

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensLineSegment
  AthensCubicSegment
  AthensCloseSegment
  AthensPathSegment
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCloseSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensCubicSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensCubicSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensCubicSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensLineSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensLineSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensPathSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:

_,,,^..^,,,_ (phone)
Eliot Miranda-2
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Re: Roassal3...What is optimal, port Athens? Athens-Cairo? or build out the Roassal3-Squeak RsBalloonFOO heirarchy

Eliot Miranda-2
In reply to this post by Tom Beckmann


On Oct 25, 2020, at 6:39 AM, Tom Beckmann <[hidden email]> wrote:


Hi timothy,

my personal opinion is that, for Squeak, it would be more interesting to get a working implementation in Balloon going, rather than porting Athens. Having Athens-Cairo would bring higher quality graphics (as of right now), but it's also a rather large dependency that may introduce portability issues, while we know for sure that Balloon "just works".

+1

Staying with Balloon could also make running the Roassal port in some of the Squeak derivatives such as SqueakJS, GraalSqueak or RSqueak simpler than depending on FFI.

Note, however, that I have not dug deep into Athens' code, so I may be over- or underestimating the complexity it would introduce. I do know that the Balloon backend for Athens (porting which would also be an option) was very incomplete when I last looked at it.

Best,
Tom

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 2:24 PM gettimothy via Squeak-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom (and others),

From an earlier email, you remarked that you where able to get an example up and running quickly by ignoring Athens (?) and rolling your own.

Is this approach "optimal" ?


Here is an example of things we cannot do until dependencies are resolved...heck, at the bottom of this email* is the entire Roassal install "log" that I saved when I installed the package:


You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:
I can either port the AthensCairoPathBuilder or I can move the functionality to your BalloonPathBuilder.


Since I know nothing about either, it will be equally painful to implement either, so the question becomes, which path yeilds the best results going forward?


Consider too, that "grok FFI" is on my skillset todo-list and Athens-Cairo looks like it would put a checkmark on that todo-list item.

I do not know enough to make an informed decision (I intuitively prefer to get the base right, but as we discovered with the pharo kernel bytes fiasco, that is not always possible)

Your thoughts?

cheers,

tty.



*Install log follows:

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:

This package depends on the following classes:
  PackageManifest
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  ManifestGeometryTests
  ManifestGeometryTests class>>ruleRBStringConcatenationRuleV1FalsePositive


This package depends on the following classes:
  GradientPaint
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GradientPaint>>interpolateTo:at:


This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
  AthensCairoSurface
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:cw:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcCos:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc2:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoSurface>>hasBeenFreed
  RPackage>>dependentPackages
This package depends on the following classes:
  PharoDarkTheme
  ClyBrowserToolMorph
  UITheme
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  PharoDarkTheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  RSUMLCalypso
  RSUMLCalypso>>activationPriority
  RSUMLCalypso>>applyTheme:
  RSUMLCalypso>>build
  RSUMLCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLCalypso>>limitedClasses:
  RSUMLCalypso>>tabOrder
  RSUMLClassCalypso
  RSUMLClassCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>targetClass
  RSUMLPackageCalypso
  RSUMLPackageCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>packages
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  UITheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  UITheme>>methodsLimitUML


This package depends on the following classes:
  GLMMorphicWidgetRenderer
  GLMPresentation
  GLMMorphicRenderer
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GLMMorphicRenderer>>renderRoassal3Presentation:
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer>>render:
  GLMPresentation>>roassal3
  GLMRoassal3Presentation
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>canvas
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initialize
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initializeCanvas:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>renderGlamorouslyOn:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>setUpInteractions


This package depends on the following classes:
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RPackage>>dependentPackagesWithOccurences
  RPackage>>numberOfDependenciesToward:

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPAnimationTest
  RSPAnimationTest class>>testParameters
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass:
  RSPAnimationTest>>setUp
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasic
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasicInCanvas
  RSPAnimationTest>>testDelay

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPBoundingTest
  RSPBoundingTest class>>testParameters
  RSPBoundingTest>>setUp
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDraw
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDrawBorder
  RSPBoundingTest>>testPosition
  RSPLinesTest
  RSPLinesTest class>>testParameters
  RSPLinesTest>>setUp
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPLinesTest>>testDraw
  RSPLinesTest>>testDrawMarkers

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensLineSegment
  AthensCubicSegment
  AthensCloseSegment
  AthensPathSegment
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCloseSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensCubicSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensCubicSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensCubicSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensLineSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensLineSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensPathSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
Squeak - Dev mailing list
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Re: Roassal3...What is optimal, port Athens? Athens-Cairo? or build out the Roassal3-Squeak RsBalloonFOO heirarchy

Squeak - Dev mailing list
In reply to this post by Squeak - Dev mailing list
Hi Tom,

Eliot has chimed in with a resounding, "Oh! The Humanity!!!" Hindenburg level Disaster alert, so port to Balloon(?) is the way to go and Cairo is a no go.

So then, should we mirror the Athen's heirarchy with Balloon stuff?

What I am saying, is that, rather than hacking a hodge-podge, I would feel better with a structure to adhere to.

In my Browser, I see "Balloon-Collections, Engine, Fills, Geometry, Simulations and then I see Graphics-Display, Primitives....etc.


I also see the RSAthensMorph....


For that "install log " list of messages/classes that must be implemented, I am more than happy to create the methods in appropriate places and go from there. I just do not know the appropriate places.

Some mapping strategy...I guess I could try to intuit it, but others who know this stuff may have better ideas.


cheers,









Hi timothy,

my personal opinion is that, for Squeak, it would be more interesting to get a working implementation in Balloon going, rather than porting Athens. Having Athens-Cairo would bring higher quality graphics (as of right now), but it's also a rather large dependency that may introduce portability issues, while we know for sure that Balloon "just works". Staying with Balloon could also make running the Roassal port in some of the Squeak derivatives such as SqueakJS, GraalSqueak or RSqueak simpler than depending on FFI.

Note, however, that I have not dug deep into Athens' code, so I may be over- or underestimating the complexity it would introduce. I do know that the Balloon backend for Athens (porting which would also be an option) was very incomplete when I last looked at it.

Best,
Tom

On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 2:24 PM gettimothy via Squeak-dev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Tom (and others),

From an earlier email, you remarked that you where able to get an example up and running quickly by ignoring Athens (?) and rolling your own.

Is this approach "optimal" ?


Here is an example of things we cannot do until dependencies are resolved...heck, at the bottom of this email* is the entire Roassal install "log" that I saved when I installed the package:


You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:
I can either port the AthensCairoPathBuilder or I can move the functionality to your BalloonPathBuilder.


Since I know nothing about either, it will be equally painful to implement either, so the question becomes, which path yeilds the best results going forward?


Consider too, that "grok FFI" is on my skillset todo-list and Athens-Cairo looks like it would put a checkmark on that todo-list item.

I do not know enough to make an informed decision (I intuitively prefer to get the base right, but as we discovered with the pharo kernel bytes fiasco, that is not always possible)

Your thoughts?

cheers,

tty.



*Install log follows:

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:

This package depends on the following classes:
  PackageManifest
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  ManifestGeometryTests
  ManifestGeometryTests class>>ruleRBStringConcatenationRuleV1FalsePositive


This package depends on the following classes:
  GradientPaint
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GradientPaint>>interpolateTo:at:


This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
  AthensCairoSurface
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:cw:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcCos:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc2:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoSurface>>hasBeenFreed
  RPackage>>dependentPackages
This package depends on the following classes:
  PharoDarkTheme
  ClyBrowserToolMorph
  UITheme
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  PharoDarkTheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  RSUMLCalypso
  RSUMLCalypso>>activationPriority
  RSUMLCalypso>>applyTheme:
  RSUMLCalypso>>build
  RSUMLCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLCalypso>>limitedClasses:
  RSUMLCalypso>>tabOrder
  RSUMLClassCalypso
  RSUMLClassCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>targetClass
  RSUMLPackageCalypso
  RSUMLPackageCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>packages
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  UITheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  UITheme>>methodsLimitUML


This package depends on the following classes:
  GLMMorphicWidgetRenderer
  GLMPresentation
  GLMMorphicRenderer
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GLMMorphicRenderer>>renderRoassal3Presentation:
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer>>render:
  GLMPresentation>>roassal3
  GLMRoassal3Presentation
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>canvas
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initialize
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initializeCanvas:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>renderGlamorouslyOn:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>setUpInteractions


This package depends on the following classes:
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RPackage>>dependentPackagesWithOccurences
  RPackage>>numberOfDependenciesToward:

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPAnimationTest
  RSPAnimationTest class>>testParameters
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass:
  RSPAnimationTest>>setUp
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasic
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasicInCanvas
  RSPAnimationTest>>testDelay

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPBoundingTest
  RSPBoundingTest class>>testParameters
  RSPBoundingTest>>setUp
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDraw
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDrawBorder
  RSPBoundingTest>>testPosition
  RSPLinesTest
  RSPLinesTest class>>testParameters
  RSPLinesTest>>setUp
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPLinesTest>>testDraw
  RSPLinesTest>>testDrawMarkers

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensLineSegment
  AthensCubicSegment
  AthensCloseSegment
  AthensPathSegment
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCloseSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensCubicSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensCubicSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensCubicSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensLineSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensLineSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensPathSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
Ben Coman
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Re: Roassal3...What is optimal, port Athens? Athens-Cairo? or build out the Roassal3-Squeak RsBalloonFOO heirarchy

Ben Coman
In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2

My understanding is that Athens in itself has nothing to do with FFI. The Cario FFI calls are encapsulated in the Athen-Cario backend.
Indeed, with an Athens-HTML backend Matthius seems to have got Athens running on Amber, which I'm sure doesn't have FFI...  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nAkiwbZZEQ     

An Athens-Balloon seems to have been planned, slide 7... https://rmod.inria.fr/archives/talks/2012-PharoConf-Athens.pdf
I don't know the status.

cheers -ben


On Sun, 25 Oct 2020 at 21:44, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Timothy

No; strategically it would be a disaster.  First, as I understand it the Athens library is built above Cairo, a large foreign dependency, implemented in C, several times larger than the VM itself.  Second, Juan Vuletich is making good progress with Morphic3, a Smalltalk implementation (a Smalltalk compiler) did similar functionality, running on the GPU.  This dependency would be much like our dependency on the VM, in that it used our own technology stack , and therefore we can modify it, and do so quite quickly.

So for the moment you should roll you own or host above BitBLT until we can move to Morphic3.  This is essential.  Under no circumstances should you release something using Athens/Cairo.  If will do lasting damage to this community and its strategic direction and viability.



Here is an example of things we cannot do until dependencies are resolved...heck, at the bottom of this email* is the entire Roassal install "log" that I saved when I installed the package:


You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:
I can either port the AthensCairoPathBuilder or I can move the functionality to your BalloonPathBuilder.


Since I know nothing about either, it will be equally painful to implement either, so the question becomes, which path yeilds the best results going forward?


Consider too, that "grok FFI" is on my skillset todo-list and Athens-Cairo looks like it would put a checkmark on that todo-list item.

I do not know enough to make an informed decision (I intuitively prefer to get the base right, but as we discovered with the pharo kernel bytes fiasco, that is not always possible)

Your thoughts?

cheers,

tty.



*Install log follows:

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcDegreeStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcRadianStart:sweep:centerX:y:radius:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc3:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc:xrot:large:sweep:to:relative:

This package depends on the following classes:
  PackageManifest
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  ManifestGeometryTests
  ManifestGeometryTests class>>ruleRBStringConcatenationRuleV1FalsePositive


This package depends on the following classes:
  GradientPaint
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GradientPaint>>interpolateTo:at:


This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder
  AthensCairoSurface
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcAround:radius:startAngle:endAngle:cw:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>arcCos:
  AthensCairoPathBuilder>>ellipticalArc2:xrot:large:sweep:to:
  AthensCairoSurface>>hasBeenFreed
  RPackage>>dependentPackages
This package depends on the following classes:
  PharoDarkTheme
  ClyBrowserToolMorph
  UITheme
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  PharoDarkTheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  RSUMLCalypso
  RSUMLCalypso>>activationPriority
  RSUMLCalypso>>applyTheme:
  RSUMLCalypso>>build
  RSUMLCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLCalypso>>limitedClasses:
  RSUMLCalypso>>tabOrder
  RSUMLClassCalypso
  RSUMLClassCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  RSUMLClassCalypso>>targetClass
  RSUMLPackageCalypso
  RSUMLPackageCalypso class>>classUmlTapActivation
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>classes
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultIconName
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>defaultTitle
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>isSimilarTo:
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>packages
  RSUMLPackageCalypso>>setUpModelFromContext
  UITheme>>classBoxBackgroundColor
  UITheme>>methodsLimitUML


This package depends on the following classes:
  GLMMorphicWidgetRenderer
  GLMPresentation
  GLMMorphicRenderer
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  GLMMorphicRenderer>>renderRoassal3Presentation:
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer
  GLMMorphicRoassal3Renderer>>render:
  GLMPresentation>>roassal3
  GLMRoassal3Presentation
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>canvas
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initialize
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>initializeCanvas:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>renderGlamorouslyOn:
  GLMRoassal3Presentation>>setUpInteractions


This package depends on the following classes:
  RPackage
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RPackage>>dependentPackagesWithOccurences
  RPackage>>numberOfDependenciesToward:

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPAnimationTest
  RSPAnimationTest class>>testParameters
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass
  RSPAnimationTest>>animationClass:
  RSPAnimationTest>>setUp
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasic
  RSPAnimationTest>>testBasicInCanvas
  RSPAnimationTest>>testDelay

This package depends on the following classes:
  ParametrizedTestCase
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  RSPBoundingTest
  RSPBoundingTest class>>testParameters
  RSPBoundingTest>>setUp
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass
  RSPBoundingTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDraw
  RSPBoundingTest>>testDrawBorder
  RSPBoundingTest>>testPosition
  RSPLinesTest
  RSPLinesTest class>>testParameters
  RSPLinesTest>>setUp
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass
  RSPLinesTest>>shapeClass:
  RSPLinesTest>>testDraw
  RSPLinesTest>>testDrawMarkers

This package depends on the following classes:
  AthensLineSegment
  AthensCubicSegment
  AthensCloseSegment
  AthensPathSegment
You must resolve these dependencies before you will be able to load these definitions:
  AthensCloseSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensCubicSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensCubicSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensCubicSegment>>visitWith:
  AthensLineSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensLineSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:
  AthensPathSegment>>durationFor:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:
  AthensPathSegment>>pointsWithStart:duration:

_,,,^..^,,,_ (phone)
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