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Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

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Chris Cunnington

Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

Andreas said:

"Then let's fix it. What it takes is someone to write up a page of how to 
install Seaside in Squeak, test the instructions, put them up on 
Squeak.org and ask the folks at Seaside.st to link to it. You can 
probably copy most of the Pharo instructions verbatim. Any takers?"

Yea, I'm interested. I think there should be a committee and not just one person. Say, three people. I'm willing to work with a committee, as I think it would help take my skills to the next level (and because I don't think I'm qualified to do it alone). If anybody's interested, then perhaps they can speak up now. We'll create a committee, a team. I've been working alone on Squeak for a long time. Working with others on this could be a great thing for me -- and for other participants. Let's solve this problem. Owing to the importance of the job, I don't think there'll be any shortage of feedback from users. :P

Chris

douglas mcpherson

Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

I'll help with this effort too. I think Julian was looking for someone to help maintain the Squeak port of Seaside ... not sure if he found anyone else yet. btw, I loaded the latest Seaside 3.0 into the latest trunk about 3 weeks ago and it seems to be working fine ...

Doug

On Nov 16, 2009, at 20:07 , Chris Cunnington wrote:

Andreas said:

"Then let's fix it. What it takes is someone to write up a page of how to 
install Seaside in Squeak, test the instructions, put them up on 
Squeak.org and ask the folks at Seaside.st to link to it. You can 
probably copy most of the Pharo instructions verbatim. Any takers?"

Yea, I'm interested. I think there should be a committee and not just one person. Say, three people. I'm willing to work with a committee, as I think it would help take my skills to the next level (and because I don't think I'm qualified to do it alone). If anybody's interested, then perhaps they can speak up now. We'll create a committee, a team. I've been working alone on Squeak for a long time. Working with others on this could be a great thing for me -- and for other participants. Let's solve this problem. Owing to the importance of the job, I don't think there'll be any shortage of feedback from users. :P

Chris

Andreas.Raab

Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington

Chris Cunnington wrote:
>
> Yea, I'm interested. I think there should be a committee and not just one person. Say, three people. I'm willing to work with a committee, as I think it would help take my skills to the next level (and because I don't think I'm qualified to do it alone). If anybody's interested, then perhaps they can speak up now. We'll create a committee, a team. I've been working alone on Squeak for a long time. Working with others on this could be a great thing for me -- and for other participants. Let's solve this problem. Owing to the importance of the job, I don't think there'll be any shortage of feedback from users. :P
>

Thanks to Julian Squeak is now listed again at
http://www.seaside.st/download/ but we really should be putting up our
own Seaside page at www.squeak.org. How are the instructions coming? ;-)

Cheers,
- Andreas

Chris Cunnington

Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington

There coming along great. We want to give Julian a link to a page on squeak.org with Seaside installation instructions. Which Seaside, and from where, is something I'm going to need to know. builder.seaside.st? Isn't that going to become incompatible?

I'm happy to create a screencast for the written instructions as well. My site's got lots of them. And I have a workflow for making screencasts.

That broaches a worthy topic: officialness. What is officially Squeak sanctioned? Bear with me here.

If I write a text that shows how we want people to install Seaside, and it's vetted, and goes on squeak.org, then that's the official way we want people to do it. Until we decide to change it.

I think we should have a screencast for that, and it'll be official. That's the way to do it. There are screencasts floating around like confetti. They aren't that useful, as they lack oversight and officialdom.

I'd like to elect myself dictator of official instructions and videos. We'd create a text page on squeak.org and link to a resource housing screncasts such as YouTube. So we have a YouTube channel where the official getting-started-with-Squeak videos are.

What makes them official? Because I say so! :O

They'd be official because the Squeak board has seen them and signed off on them. They'd be official, because they'd have a maintainer, me, who would listen to people's feedback on them, and they would be remade to address changes or things that people found confusing. They'd be official, because they'd have a small set of essential tasks people need to get what they need.

Of course, once people see a set of ten movies that are official and immutable, then they'll want to create their own to elaborate on the ten official videos. We have them in the same place such as a YouTube Channel.

I'm not a saint and I'm not willing to do this just for the greater glory of God. To do this right takes time and effort, which ultimately means it takes money. I'd want to be able to post a image link from our channel of official videos to my site. Something like, "Sponsored by..." For that I'd be willing to write lots of instructions and make, and revise, lots of videos.

Consider it. I'll write the Seaside install instructions either way.

Chris

Randal L. Schwartz

Re: Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

>>>>> "Chris" == Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]> writes:

Chris> There coming along great. We want to give Julian a link to a page on
Chris> squeak.org with Seaside installation instructions. Which Seaside, and
Chris> from where, is something I'm going to need to know. builder.seaside.st?
Chris> Isn't that going to become incompatible?

There should be instructions for installing production Seaside (2.8)
as well as the dev Seaside (3.0). For the latter, describe how
to create the file-in file and use it, by pointing at builder.seaside.st.

As for versions of Squeak, the instructions should presume both 3.10.2, and
Squeak-trunk, with caveats that either or both of -trunk and/or 3.0 Seaside
might be broken for short periods of time, and at some point, 3.10.2 might
*not* necessarily work with 3.0 Seaside after some future release.

Chris> I'd like to elect myself dictator of official instructions and
Chris> videos. We'd create a text page on squeak.org and link to a resource
Chris> housing screncasts such as YouTube. So we have a YouTube channel where
Chris> the official getting-started-with-Squeak videos are.

We have a Vimeo Squeak area, which can support longer videos than youtube.
I think you're already a member there, but if not, just ask to join.

Chris> They'd be official because the Squeak board has seen them and signed
Chris> off on them.

At this point, what the SOB is doing is empowering a "Squeak Seaside Support
Team", which *you* have now volunteered to lead until you aren't. :)

What we're signing off on is *you*, not each action you and your team members
take. Of course, like any team, the SOB acting on the behalf of the community
might meddle, but let's first start by trusting that you'll do the right
thing.

Having said that, I'll be following this closely as well.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

Chris Cunnington

Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington

Hi Randal,

I think we're moving in the right direction. I'm glad to take the details for the instructions as you've provided them. I'll use them as you have specified.

That's about all I've committed to, at this point. I like your enthusiasm. And I like the title of Squeak Seaside Support Team. But I'm more interested in defining my own role, thanks. Which the SOB is free to refuse.

I know there is a Vimeo collection of videos. So? I know you prompted that. I think YouTube is a better place to get exposure.

I'm pushing for a YouTube channel with videos explaining ten core things. Maybe you noticed that I want a link from that page saying "Sponsored by..." etc?

I'd like a clearer picture of what I'm committing to, before I do. If people, the SOB, find that attitude impertinent, that's fine by me. In life you don't get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate.

I'll check back tomorrow. This seems to have eaten my afternoon.

Chris

Ken Causey-3

Re: Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz

On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 12:41 -0800, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
> >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]> writes:
> Chris> I'd like to elect myself dictator of official instructions and
> Chris> videos. We'd create a text page on squeak.org and link to a resource
> Chris> housing screncasts such as YouTube. So we have a YouTube channel where
> Chris> the official getting-started-with-Squeak videos are.

I'm fine with delegating dictatorial powers regarding screencasts and
documentation organization to you at least provisionally. ;)

> We have a Vimeo Squeak area, which can support longer videos than youtube.
> I think you're already a member there, but if not, just ask to join.

I also suggest that we use the Vimeo site

http://vimeo.com/groups/squeak

there at least was some momentum in that group for a while, although it
has died off somewhat. And even though it's not perfect that site does
work and has some benefits. There are a group of admins there already
(I have been checking the site at least twice a week for months now, if
activity is increasing I'll check it daily) and I would be happy to make
you one.

> Chris> They'd be official because the Squeak board has seen them and signed
> Chris> off on them.
>
> At this point, what the SOB is doing is empowering a "Squeak Seaside Support
> Team", which *you* have now volunteered to lead until you aren't. :)
>
> What we're signing off on is *you*, not each action you and your team members
> take. Of course, like any team, the SOB acting on the behalf of the community
> might meddle, but let's first start by trusting that you'll do the right
> thing.
>
> Having said that, I'll be following this closely as well.

Which makes Randal your Coordinator, even if we aren't going to use that
terminology any longer. ;)

Ken

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Randal L. Schwartz

Re: Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

>>>>> "Ken" == Ken Causey <[hidden email]> writes:

Ken> Which makes Randal your Coordinator, even if we aren't going to use that
Ken> terminology any longer. ;)

Indeed, making it explicit helps, thanks.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

Ken Causey-3

Re: Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

In reply to this post by Chris Cunnington

On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 15:58 -0500, Chris Cunnington wrote:
> I know there is a Vimeo collection of videos. So? I know you prompted
> that. I think YouTube is a better place to get exposure.
>
>
> I'm pushing for a YouTube channel with videos explaining ten core
> things. Maybe you noticed that I want a link from that page saying
> "Sponsored by..." etc?

OK, let me argue a little for Vimeo and when you have time if you still
prefer Youtube I would like to hear reasons other than 'exposure',
although that is a good one.

1. On Vimeo we have an existing community, 37 strong, that is diverse
including non-Squeakers from Gemstone and Cincom.

2. We have at least a few (24 actually) existing videos in the group.

3. Vimeo offers a widget easily embeddable into any page which offers
videos from within a group's collection, this could be used on
squeak.org for example.

4. The video quality on Vimeo is good, perhaps not better than Youtube
now that Youtube has improved, I'm not sure.

I've certainly looked at Youtube videos quite a bit but I'm not all that
familiar with the features they offer that would be useful to us. So
feel free to enlighten me.

Ken

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Ken G. Brown

Re: Re: Seaside support in Squeak (Re: My Own Squeak Direction)

In reply to this post by Randal L. Schwartz

>From http://code.google.com/p/pharo/issues/detail?id=1398 :

>[hidden email], Nov 03, 2009
>Seaside could also be loaded using the following gofer script (which also loads
>Comanche). So this would fix the issue
>
>loadSeaside30
> [ self gofer new
> squeaksource: 'Seaside30';
> addPackage: 'LoadOrderTests';
> load ]
> valueSupplyingAnswers: {
> {'Load Seaside'. true}.
> {'SqueakSource User Name'. ''}.
> {'SqueakSource Password'. ''}.
> {'Run tests'. false}.
> }.
>
> "Set up to development environment (enables seaside web toolbar) "
> (self environment at: #WAAdmin) applicationDefaults
> addParent: (self environment at: #WADevelopmentConfiguration)
>instance.
>
> (self environment at: #WASqueakServerAdaptorBrowser) open

------------
With some sleuthing looking in LoadOrderTests-SeasideLoadOrderTests, method category packages, that should give a jump start to the Seaside load instructions for Squeak.

Ken G. Brown

At 12:41 PM -0800 11/19/09, Randal L. Schwartz apparently wrote:

> >>>>> "Chris" == Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>Chris> There coming along great. We want to give Julian a link to a page on
>Chris> squeak.org with Seaside installation instructions. Which Seaside, and
>Chris> from where, is something I'm going to need to know. builder.seaside.st?
>Chris> Isn't that going to become incompatible?
>
>There should be instructions for installing production Seaside (2.8)
>as well as the dev Seaside (3.0). For the latter, describe how
>to create the file-in file and use it, by pointing at builder.seaside.st.
>
>As for versions of Squeak, the instructions should presume both 3.10.2, and
>Squeak-trunk, with caveats that either or both of -trunk and/or 3.0 Seaside
>might be broken for short periods of time, and at some point, 3.10.2 might
>*not* necessarily work with 3.0 Seaside after some future release.
>
>Chris> I'd like to elect myself dictator of official instructions and
>Chris> videos. We'd create a text page on squeak.org and link to a resource
>Chris> housing screncasts such as YouTube. So we have a YouTube channel where
>Chris> the official getting-started-with-Squeak videos are.
>
>We have a Vimeo Squeak area, which can support longer videos than youtube.
>I think you're already a member there, but if not, just ask to join.
>
>Chris> They'd be official because the Squeak board has seen them and signed
>Chris> off on them.
>
>At this point, what the SOB is doing is empowering a "Squeak Seaside Support
>Team", which *you* have now volunteered to lead until you aren't. :)
>
>What we're signing off on is *you*, not each action you and your team members
>take. Of course, like any team, the SOB acting on the behalf of the community
>might meddle, but let's first start by trusting that you'll do the right
>thing.
>
>Having said that, I'll be following this closely as well.
>
>--
>Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
><[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
>Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
>See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

Bert Freudenberg

Sharing screencasts

In reply to this post by Ken Causey-3

On 19.11.2009, at 23:04, Ken Causey wrote:

>
> On Thu, 2009-11-19 at 15:58 -0500, Chris Cunnington wrote:
>> I know there is a Vimeo collection of videos. So? I know you prompted
>> that. I think YouTube is a better place to get exposure.
>>
>>
>> I'm pushing for a YouTube channel with videos explaining ten core
>> things. Maybe you noticed that I want a link from that page saying
>> "Sponsored by..." etc?
>
> OK, let me argue a little for Vimeo and when you have time if you still
> prefer Youtube I would like to hear reasons other than 'exposure',
> although that is a good one.
>
> 1. On Vimeo we have an existing community, 37 strong, that is diverse
> including non-Squeakers from Gemstone and Cincom.
>
> 2. We have at least a few (24 actually) existing videos in the group.
>
> 3. Vimeo offers a widget easily embeddable into any page which offers
> videos from within a group's collection, this could be used on
> squeak.org for example.
>
> 4. The video quality on Vimeo is good, perhaps not better than Youtube
> now that Youtube has improved, I'm not sure.
>
> I've certainly looked at Youtube videos quite a bit but I'm not all that
> familiar with the features they offer that would be useful to us. So
> feel free to enlighten me.
>
> Ken

And please change subjects appropriately ;)

Does anyone know a screen recording software for the Mac that easily produces video for upload?

- Bert -

Randal L. Schwartz

Re: Sharing screencasts

>>>>> "Bert" == Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> writes:

Bert> Does anyone know a screen recording software for the Mac that easily
Bert> produces video for upload?

I'm a big fan of Screenflow, both because it's the only capture software that
can capture the *entire* hi-res desktop I have at *full* speed, but it also
has the best integrated video editing system, allowing callouts and multiple
layers and 3-d effects.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

Bert Freudenberg

Re: Sharing screencasts

On 20.11.2009, at 00:15, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:

>
>>>>>> "Bert" == Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> Bert> Does anyone know a screen recording software for the Mac that easily
> Bert> produces video for upload?
>
> I'm a big fan of Screenflow, both because it's the only capture software that
> can capture the *entire* hi-res desktop I have at *full* speed, but it also
> has the best integrated video editing system, allowing callouts and multiple
> layers and 3-d effects.

Yes, I heard it's excellent, though for the handful of screencasts I'm going to ever do buying it seems unjustified.

I just found out (via Ken on IRC) that Snow Leopard's Quicktime Player actually allows screen recording with voice-over. Duh! There seems to be no way to capture just a window though. OTOH, there is even youtube upload built in ...

- Bert -

Eliot Miranda-2

Re: Sharing screencasts

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 3:39 PM, Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 20.11.2009, at 00:15, Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
>
>>>>>> "Bert" == Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]> writes:
>
> Bert> Does anyone know a screen recording software for the Mac that easily
> Bert> produces video for upload?
>
> I'm a big fan of Screenflow, both because it's the only capture software that
> can capture the *entire* hi-res desktop I have at *full* speed, but it also
> has the best integrated video editing system, allowing callouts and multiple
> layers and 3-d effects.

Yes, I heard it's excellent, though for the handful of screencasts I'm going to ever do buying it seems unjustified.

I just found out (via Ken on IRC) that Snow Leopard's Quicktime Player actually allows screen recording with voice-over. Duh! There seems to be no way to capture just a window though. OTOH, there is even youtube upload built in ...

...and HandBrake should allow you to extract the window from the full screen provided the window doesn't move.

- Bert -