Seaside vx Ruby vs Ajax vx ?

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Seaside vx Ruby vs Ajax vx ?

Brad Fuller
Blake wrote:

> I'm working on an article on Seaside for DevSource (which is oriented  
> around Windows programmers, but which the editors have also found
> that  actual code, regardless of platform, is more attractive to
> readers than  anything else) and was wondering if anyone here had any
> experiences they  wanted to share on using Seaside versus using other
> technologies.
>
> It appears to me that all these technologies are primarily concerned
> with  preserving state in the stateless environment of the web. Is
> there more to  it than that, really?
>
> Also, is there an advantage, do y'all think, in Smalltalk having a
> plug-in  VM? That is to say, do you think it's easier to segue from
> Seaside to a  rich-client type experience in Smalltalk than these
> other technologies?
>
>
Speaking of Ruby, etc.... Ruby and AJAX are receiving more and more
press these days. There was an article this weekend about Michael
Arrington's site: TechCrunch (www.TechCrunch.com) entitled "Web 2.0."
Ajax and Ruby were mentioned. Although it was a business article and not
technical in nature, the press seems to be piling up for these two.

 From http://www.theopensourcery.com/ajaxdirections.htm I get a clearer
overview of AJAX. Is there a FAQ on the plus/minus of Seaside over Ruby
over AJAX? I think this has been discussed  briefly here (see thread:
"ajax...an idea to squeakize! and "LiveWeb") and this is informative:
http://smallthought.com/avi/.

Why should someone choose/not_choose Seaside over the buzz of today
(Ruby or Ajax.) If there are clear advantages, or even specific
advantages for web developers in certain situations, it would be nice to
get the word out.

brad

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Re: Seaside vx Ruby vs Ajax vx ?

Cees De Groot
On 1/16/06, Brad Fuller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Why should someone choose/not_choose Seaside over the buzz of today
> (Ruby or Ajax.)

Seaside includes Ajax-y things - you can do asynchronous processing
without writing a single line of Javascript.

(In fact, I used 'Ajax' in a VAST WebConnect project, and I'm quite
sure that the IBM guys never considered that possibility. Ajax,
stripped to the core, is dead simple)

Ajax is the most overhyped thing at the moment. My predictions for it
are, therefore, dire. I will bet it will go the way of XML - simple
and interesting at first, then the "Enterprise" folk run away with it
and within 2 years we have W3C AJAX standards that span 1000 pages.
Wanna bet?

In the meantime, XMLHttpRequest is a nice feature. It can really help
to make web applications more usable. Use it in any environment (want
to see "CGI Ajax support"? Takes a whopping 1 minutes probably to
implement it).

Ruby or Smalltalk? I'm a productivity whore and relatively immune to
hypes. So I prefer Smalltalk. YMMV.

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Re: Seaside vx Ruby vs Ajax vx ?

Brad Fuller
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
Brad Fuller wrote:

> Blake wrote:
>
>> I'm working on an article on Seaside for DevSource (which is
>> oriented  around Windows programmers, but which the editors have also
>> found that  actual code, regardless of platform, is more attractive
>> to readers than  anything else) and was wondering if anyone here had
>> any experiences they  wanted to share on using Seaside versus using
>> other technologies.
>>
>> It appears to me that all these technologies are primarily concerned
>> with  preserving state in the stateless environment of the web. Is
>> there more to  it than that, really?
>>
>> Also, is there an advantage, do y'all think, in Smalltalk having a
>> plug-in  VM? That is to say, do you think it's easier to segue from
>> Seaside to a  rich-client type experience in Smalltalk than these
>> other technologies?
>>
>>
> Speaking of Ruby, etc.... Ruby and AJAX are receiving more and more
> press these days. There was an article this weekend about Michael
> Arrington's site: TechCrunch (www.TechCrunch.com) entitled "Web 2.0."
> Ajax and Ruby were mentioned. Although it was a business article and
> not technical in nature, the press seems to be piling up for these two.
>
> From http://www.theopensourcery.com/ajaxdirections.htm I get a clearer
> overview of AJAX. Is there a FAQ on the plus/minus of Seaside over
> Ruby over AJAX? I think this has been discussed  briefly here (see
> thread: "ajax...an idea to squeakize! and "LiveWeb") and this is
> informative: http://smallthought.com/avi/.
>
> Why should someone choose/not_choose Seaside over the buzz of today
> (Ruby or Ajax.) If there are clear advantages, or even specific
> advantages for web developers in certain situations, it would be nice
> to get the word out.

BTW, Avi's podcast here:
http://podcast.rubyonrails.org/podcast.xml
is informative too.


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Re: Seaside vx Ruby vs Ajax vx ?

Brad Fuller
In reply to this post by Cees De Groot
Cees De Groot wrote:

>On 1/16/06, Brad Fuller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  
>
>>Why should someone choose/not_choose Seaside over the buzz of today
>>(Ruby or Ajax.)
>>    
>>
>
>Seaside includes Ajax-y things - you can do asynchronous processing
>without writing a single line of Javascript.
>
>(In fact, I used 'Ajax' in a VAST WebConnect project, and I'm quite
>sure that the IBM guys never considered that possibility. Ajax,
>stripped to the core, is dead simple)
>
>Ajax is the most overhyped thing at the moment. My predictions for it
>are, therefore, dire. I will bet it will go the way of XML - simple
>and interesting at first, then the "Enterprise" folk run away with it
>and within 2 years we have W3C AJAX standards that span 1000 pages.
>Wanna bet?
>
>In the meantime, XMLHttpRequest is a nice feature. It can really help
>to make web applications more usable. Use it in any environment (want
>to see "CGI Ajax support"? Takes a whopping 1 minutes probably to
>implement it).
>
>Ruby or Smalltalk? I'm a productivity whore and relatively immune to
>hypes. So I prefer Smalltalk. YMMV.
>  
>
can you do audio (as in stream, assign sounds to events, etc.) in Seaside?

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Re: Seaside vx Ruby vs Ajax vx ?

Avi  Bryant
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller

On Jan 16, 2006, at 10:24 AM, Brad Fuller wrote:

>
> Speaking of Ruby, etc.... Ruby and AJAX are receiving more and more  
> press these days. There was an article this weekend about Michael  
> Arrington's site: TechCrunch (www.TechCrunch.com) entitled "Web  
> 2.0." Ajax and Ruby were mentioned. Although it was a business  
> article and not technical in nature, the press seems to be piling  
> up for these two.
>
> From http://www.theopensourcery.com/ajaxdirections.htm I get a  
> clearer overview of AJAX. Is there a FAQ on the plus/minus of  
> Seaside over Ruby over AJAX? I think this has been discussed  
> briefly here (see thread: "ajax...an idea to squeakize! and  
> "LiveWeb") and this is informative: http://smallthought.com/avi/.
>
> Why should someone choose/not_choose Seaside over the buzz of today  
> (Ruby or Ajax.) If there are clear advantages, or even specific  
> advantages for web developers in certain situations, it would be  
> nice to get the word out.

Seaside and AJAX are not mutually exclusive (nor are Ruby and AJAX).  
The Scriptaculous package for Seaside makes use of the same  
Javascript libraries that Ruby on Rails does (Prototype and  
Script.aculo.us) to provide some AJAX support.  SeasideAsync is an  
older package that does more or less the same thing (the usual  
Smalltalk problem: we were doing it quietly before it was trendy - if  
only the AJAX acronym had existed when I wrote http://
www.cincomsmalltalk.com/userblogs/avi/blogView?
showComments=true&entry=3268075684 then I would have known how to  
hype it :).

As for Ruby on Rails vs. Seaside, that's been done a bit to death.  
See, for example, my earlier post on the "Seaside/Ruby on Rails/.NET/
etc" thread.

Avi

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Re: Seaside vx Ruby vs Ajax vx ?

Brad Fuller
In reply to this post by Brad Fuller
Brad Fuller wrote:

>>   can you do audio (as in stream, assign sounds to events, etc.) in
>> Seaside?
>
 no one knows the answer?