Second LIfe hosting Croquet? (long ramble)

> Hi all. My name is Lawson English. I'm a long-time fan of Squeak and of virtual
> worlds. Recently I became involved with Second Life and started "hanging with
> the Lindens" during their in-world office hours (the Linden Lab employees are
> called Lindens because their official in-game avatars always have a last name
> of "Linden").
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I raised the possibility of modifying the Second Life
> client (which is now open source) to allow it to launch other virtual world
> clients of the peer to peer variety (specifically Croquet) so that Second Life
> residents might step into another type of virtual world.
>
> The Lindens present weren't too sure of the value of such a move, but one of
> the open source developers assured me that it would be quite trivial to do and
> termed it "using Second Life as a lobby for online games."
>
> I think that there should be an effort from the Croquet communities side to
> create such a bridge between Second Life and Croquet.
>
> As I see it, the  SL-Croquet connection, as a minimum, requires:
>
> 1) a way to launch/evoke Croquet on the SL client side (trivial);
>
> 2) a way of allowing participants in Croquet to continue to communicate from
> within Croquet to their friends in SL without breaking the immersion within the
> Croquet virtual world (this may be trivial from within the client--just accept
> text from the Croquet session as though it were keyboard input to the message
> interface);
>
> 3) a way to import at least a substantial subset of the current SL avatar's
> appearance to provide a feel of continuity between SL and Croquet (SL avatar
> meshes are somewhat well documented and accept Poser output as templates for
> avatars in-game);
>
> 4) a way to leave Croquet and return to SL.
>
>
> These last two aren't really that tricky since the SL avatar would almost
> certainly still be active in SL, just not moving around. All that would be
> needed would be a suitably "believable" graphical transition between the two
> worlds to provide continuity, for art's sake, and player satisfaction, if
> nothing else.
>
>
>
> The advantages for Croquet development are many: there is a relatively large
> user-base of SL with, according to what I have read, roughly 80,000 paying
> customers and 1 million casual users per month. If even a tiny fraction of
> these users started using Croquet, that would boost the regular use of this
> environment many-fold and provide researchers a way of soliciting subjects for
> various test environments within Croquet.
>
> Additionally, many Second Life regulars are techno-savvy, creating tools of all
> sorts, both in-world and by using regular computer languages off-world, that
> enable other users to produce content within the game. If they became
> Squeak-savvy, they might start using Squeak as a production tool for Second
> Life, instead of Java, C, etc. This would also increase the number of casual
> programmers of Squeak substantially (see the reference to providing researchers
> with a larger base of subjects).
>
> Other possibilities might include creating a more formal relationship between
> Croquet and Second Life. Currently SL lacks any peer to peer capabilities at
> all. Likewise, Croquet's operation in the  client-server arena is just
> beginning, or so I understand.
>
> Zero Linden, the Director of Ice House Studio  at Linden Labs (the major
> projects at LL are called studios and Ice House is the main programmer's
> studio), worked at Apple Computer's Smalltalk division many years ago and has a
> soft spot in his technical heart towards the language.
>
> The future direction for language use in Second Life calls for a transition to
> using the Mono open source virtual machine. Certainly, a Smalltalk interface
> with SL's mono VM could be devised, allowing programmers an alternative to
> using LSL--Linden Scripting Language, the in-game language used to control the
> SL environment and buildings, etc.
>
> The  possibilities are endless for collaboration between Croquet and SL, no
> matter how loose or close the connection actually becamse.
>
> I certainly would want to play some role in making this happen, but lack the
> technical skills to do it on my own. If anyone is interested in taking a look
> at the current state of the art in SL, the client is a free download from the
> Second Life website and the source code is open source under (I believe) a
> FreeBSD licence. The in-world office hours for various Lindens and their
> position within the company can be found here:
>
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
>
> and a calender found here:
>
> http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=mvktahmo6mjpvpkkkdnmabmghg%40group.cal
> endar.google.com
>
>
> An innovative device called an "SLURL" allows one to embed a Second Life map
> location within a webpage. Clicking on the "teleport" button of the SLURL
> webpage will tell the SL client to attempt to teleport your avatar to that map
> location within the game. It is somewhat broken on Macs, but still loads the
> map coordinates into the game map so its only one more click to get to a SL
> location specified on a website.
>
>
> I should add that the advantages for Linden Labs exist as well but I will save
> those for my pitch to the SL side of things.
>
>
> I hope that I have inspired at least a few of you to consider looking into this
> possibility. Collaboration between various virtual online worlds will be
> absolutely necessary in the future and SL and Croquet, while not a perfect fit,
> technology-wise, certainly have more potential than most in this reguard, given
> that they are both open source and the people involved share many of the same
> goals for their technologies.
>
> Thanks for reading this,
>
>
> Lawson English
>
>  

> Hi all. My name is Lawson English. I'm a long-time fan of Squeak  
> and of virtual
> worlds. Recently I became involved with Second Life and started  
> "hanging with
> the Lindens" during their in-world office hours (the Linden Lab  
> employees are
> called Lindens because their official in-game avatars always have a  
> last name
> of "Linden").
>
> A couple of weeks ago, I raised the possibility of modifying the  
> Second Life
> client (which is now open source) to allow it to launch other  
> virtual world
> clients of the peer to peer variety (specifically Croquet) so that  
> Second Life
> residents might step into another type of virtual world.
>
> The Lindens present weren't too sure of the value of such a move,  
> but one of
> the open source developers assured me that it would be quite  
> trivial to do and
> termed it "using Second Life as a lobby for online games."
>
> I think that there should be an effort from the Croquet communities  
> side to
> create such a bridge between Second Life and Croquet.
>
> As I see it, the  SL-Croquet connection, as a minimum, requires:
>
> 1) a way to launch/evoke Croquet on the SL client side (trivial);
>
> 2) a way of allowing participants in Croquet to continue to  
> communicate from
> within Croquet to their friends in SL without breaking the  
> immersion within the
> Croquet virtual world (this may be trivial from within the client--
> just accept
> text from the Croquet session as though it were keyboard input to  
> the message
> interface);
>
> 3) a way to import at least a substantial subset of the current SL  
> avatar's
> appearance to provide a feel of continuity between SL and Croquet  
> (SL avatar
> meshes are somewhat well documented and accept Poser output as  
> templates for
> avatars in-game);
>
> 4) a way to leave Croquet and return to SL.
>
>
> These last two aren't really that tricky since the SL avatar would  
> almost
> certainly still be active in SL, just not moving around. All that  
> would be
> needed would be a suitably "believable" graphical transition  
> between the two
> worlds to provide continuity, for art's sake, and player  
> satisfaction, if
> nothing else.
>
>
>
> The advantages for Croquet development are many: there is a  
> relatively large
> user-base of SL with, according to what I have read, roughly 80,000  
> paying
> customers and 1 million casual users per month. If even a tiny  
> fraction of
> these users started using Croquet, that would boost the regular use  
> of this
> environment many-fold and provide researchers a way of soliciting  
> subjects for
> various test environments within Croquet.
>
> Additionally, many Second Life regulars are techno-savvy, creating  
> tools of all
> sorts, both in-world and by using regular computer languages off-
> world, that
> enable other users to produce content within the game. If they became
> Squeak-savvy, they might start using Squeak as a production tool  
> for Second
> Life, instead of Java, C, etc. This would also increase the number  
> of casual
> programmers of Squeak substantially (see the reference to providing  
> researchers
> with a larger base of subjects).
>
> Other possibilities might include creating a more formal  
> relationship between
> Croquet and Second Life. Currently SL lacks any peer to peer  
> capabilities at
> all. Likewise, Croquet's operation in the  client-server arena is just
> beginning, or so I understand.
>
> Zero Linden, the Director of Ice House Studio  at Linden Labs (the  
> major
> projects at LL are called studios and Ice House is the main  
> programmer's
> studio), worked at Apple Computer's Smalltalk division many years  
> ago and has a
> soft spot in his technical heart towards the language.
>
> The future direction for language use in Second Life calls for a  
> transition to
> using the Mono open source virtual machine. Certainly, a Smalltalk  
> interface
> with SL's mono VM could be devised, allowing programmers an  
> alternative to
> using LSL--Linden Scripting Language, the in-game language used to  
> control the
> SL environment and buildings, etc.
>
> The  possibilities are endless for collaboration between Croquet  
> and SL, no
> matter how loose or close the connection actually becamse.
>
> I certainly would want to play some role in making this happen, but  
> lack the
> technical skills to do it on my own. If anyone is interested in  
> taking a look
> at the current state of the art in SL, the client is a free  
> download from the
> Second Life website and the source code is open source under (I  
> believe) a
> FreeBSD licence. The in-world office hours for various Lindens and  
> their
> position within the company can be found here:
>
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
>
> and a calender found here:
>
> <a href="http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=mvktahmo6mjpvpkkkdnmabmghg%">http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=mvktahmo6mjpvpkkkdnmabmghg% 
> 40group.cal
> endar.google.com
>
>
> An innovative device called an "SLURL" allows one to embed a Second  
> Life map
> location within a webpage. Clicking on the "teleport" button of the  
> SLURL
> webpage will tell the SL client to attempt to teleport your avatar  
> to that map
> location within the game. It is somewhat broken on Macs, but still  
> loads the
> map coordinates into the game map so its only one more click to get  
> to a SL
> location specified on a website.
>
>
> I should add that the advantages for Linden Labs exist as well but  
> I will save
> those for my pitch to the SL side of things.
>
>
> I hope that I have inspired at least a few of you to consider  
> looking into this
> possibility. Collaboration between various virtual online worlds  
> will be
> absolutely necessary in the future and SL and Croquet, while not a  
> perfect fit,
> technology-wise, certainly have more potential than most in this  
> reguard, given
> that they are both open source and the people involved share many  
> of the same
> goals for their technologies.
>
> Thanks for reading this,
>
>
> Lawson English

>
> On 7/17/07, *David P. Reed* <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
>
>     Thanks for the analysis.   There is indeed interest on both sides to
>     figure out useful ways to make SL and Croquet interoperate
>     better.   In
>     fact, there was a conference on interoperability between virtual
>     worlds
>     a few weeks ago at the Berkman Center where some of us Croquet
>     types and
>     some of the Second Life types began talking about the value of doing
>     so.   Since the SL client and Croquet are both open source, this
>     enables
>     a good start on the technical side, as you suggest, to do something
>     quick and dirty.
>
>     A more complex issue would be to create a sustainable process that
>     would
>     lead to continued interoperation as both technologies evolve.  
>     This is
>     something I and others in the two sides are quite interested in
>     personally.
>
>     While it is way too premature to commit anything (not that I can
>     make a
>     commitment for anyone but myself) and the cost of doing whatever
>     turns
>     out to be the "right" thing is not zero, I think this is something
>     that
>     has to be on the table for both sets of creators, and is obviously
>     a win
>     for users.
>
>     I am interested in others' thoughts.   Of course there are some users
>     who might find that having multiple choices remain in the
>     marketplace of
>     options would lead to complexity, I think this early in the
>     evolution of
>     these concepts, there is a huge shared interest in pursuing interop.
>
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> wrote:
>     > Hi all. My name is Lawson English. I'm a long-time fan of Squeak
>     and of virtual
>     > worlds. Recently I became involved with Second Life and started
>     "hanging with
>     > the Lindens" during their in-world office hours (the Linden Lab
>     employees are
>     > called Lindens because their official in-game avatars always
>     have a last name
>     > of "Linden").
>     >
>     > A couple of weeks ago, I raised the possibility of modifying the
>     Second Life
>     > client (which is now open source) to allow it to launch other
>     virtual world
>     > clients of the peer to peer variety (specifically Croquet) so
>     that Second Life
>     > residents might step into another type of virtual world.
>     >
>     > The Lindens present weren't too sure of the value of such a
>     move, but one of
>     > the open source developers assured me that it would be quite
>     trivial to do and
>     > termed it "using Second Life as a lobby for online games."
>     >
>     > I think that there should be an effort from the Croquet
>     communities side to
>     > create such a bridge between Second Life and Croquet.
>     >
>     > As I see it, the  SL-Croquet connection, as a minimum, requires:
>     >
>     > 1) a way to launch/evoke Croquet on the SL client side (trivial);
>     >
>     > 2) a way of allowing participants in Croquet to continue to
>     communicate from
>     > within Croquet to their friends in SL without breaking the
>     immersion within the
>     > Croquet virtual world (this may be trivial from within the
>     client--just accept
>     > text from the Croquet session as though it were keyboard input
>     to the message
>     > interface);
>     >
>     > 3) a way to import at least a substantial subset of the current
>     SL avatar's
>     > appearance to provide a feel of continuity between SL and
>     Croquet (SL avatar
>     > meshes are somewhat well documented and accept Poser output as
>     templates for
>     > avatars in-game);
>     >
>     > 4) a way to leave Croquet and return to SL.
>     >
>     >
>     > These last two aren't really that tricky since the SL avatar
>     would almost
>     > certainly still be active in SL, just not moving around. All
>     that would be
>     > needed would be a suitably "believable" graphical transition
>     between the two
>     > worlds to provide continuity, for art's sake, and player
>     satisfaction, if
>     > nothing else.
>     >
>     >
>     >
>     > The advantages for Croquet development are many: there is a
>     relatively large
>     > user-base of SL with, according to what I have read, roughly
>     80,000 paying
>     > customers and 1 million casual users per month. If even a tiny
>     fraction of
>     > these users started using Croquet, that would boost the regular
>     use of this
>     > environment many-fold and provide researchers a way of
>     soliciting subjects for
>     > various test environments within Croquet.
>     >
>     > Additionally, many Second Life regulars are techno-savvy,
>     creating tools of all
>     > sorts, both in-world and by using regular computer languages
>     off-world, that
>     > enable other users to produce content within the game. If they
>     became
>     > Squeak-savvy, they might start using Squeak as a production tool
>     for Second
>     > Life, instead of Java, C, etc. This would also increase the
>     number of casual
>     > programmers of Squeak substantially (see the reference to
>     providing researchers
>     > with a larger base of subjects).
>     >
>     > Other possibilities might include creating a more formal
>     relationship between
>     > Croquet and Second Life. Currently SL lacks any peer to peer
>     capabilities at
>     > all. Likewise, Croquet's operation in the  client-server arena
>     is just
>     > beginning, or so I understand.
>     >
>     > Zero Linden, the Director of Ice House Studio  at Linden Labs
>     (the major
>     > projects at LL are called studios and Ice House is the main
>     programmer's
>     > studio), worked at Apple Computer's Smalltalk division many
>     years ago and has a
>     > soft spot in his technical heart towards the language.
>     >
>     > The future direction for language use in Second Life calls for a
>     transition to
>     > using the Mono open source virtual machine. Certainly, a
>     Smalltalk interface
>     > with SL's mono VM could be devised, allowing programmers an
>     alternative to
>     > using LSL--Linden Scripting Language, the in-game language used
>     to control the
>     > SL environment and buildings, etc.
>     >
>     > The  possibilities are endless for collaboration between Croquet
>     and SL, no
>     > matter how loose or close the connection actually becamse.
>     >
>     > I certainly would want to play some role in making this happen,
>     but lack the
>     > technical skills to do it on my own. If anyone is interested in
>     taking a look
>     > at the current state of the art in SL, the client is a free
>     download from the
>     > Second Life website and the source code is open source under (I
>     believe) a
>     > FreeBSD licence. The in-world office hours for various Lindens
>     and their
>     > position within the company can be found here:
>     >
>     > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours
>     <http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Office_Hours>
>     >
>     > and a calender found here:
>     >
>     >
>     http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=mvktahmo6mjpvpkkkdnmabmghg%40group.cal
>     <http://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=mvktahmo6mjpvpkkkdnmabmghg%40group.cal>
>     > endar.google.com <http://endar.google.com>
>     >
>     >
>     > An innovative device called an "SLURL" allows one to embed a
>     Second Life map
>     > location within a webpage. Clicking on the "teleport" button of
>     the SLURL
>     > webpage will tell the SL client to attempt to teleport your
>     avatar to that map
>     > location within the game. It is somewhat broken on Macs, but
>     still loads the
>     > map coordinates into the game map so its only one more click to
>     get to a SL
>     > location specified on a website.
>     >
>     >
>     > I should add that the advantages for Linden Labs exist as well
>     but I will save
>     > those for my pitch to the SL side of things.
>     >
>     >
>     > I hope that I have inspired at least a few of you to consider
>     looking into this
>     > possibility. Collaboration between various virtual online worlds
>     will be
>     > absolutely necessary in the future and SL and Croquet, while not
>     a perfect fit,
>     > technology-wise, certainly have more potential than most in this
>     reguard, given
>     > that they are both open source and the people involved share
>     many of the same
>     > goals for their technologies.
>     >
>     > Thanks for reading this,
>     >
>     >
>     > Lawson English
>     >
>     >
>
>

> The Intermetaverse group in Second Life is interested in these topics
> (see the archives of this list for some more information).  There were
> weekly meetings going on for a while, but they puttered out.
>
> My friend Strick has done some cool stuff with Croquet-SL interop.  
> He's defined an http-based protocol for replicating object states
> between the two environments.  I'm very tempted to say more, but he
> did the work, so he should have the pleasure of describing it.
>
> Thanks for your thoughts,
> Josh
>

>
> On Jul 17, 2007, at 10:01 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
>
>> Hi all. My name is Lawson English. I'm a long-time fan of Squeak and
>> of virtual
>> worlds. Recently I became involved with Second Life and started
>> "hanging with
>> the Lindens" during their in-world office hours (the Linden Lab
>> employees are
>> called Lindens because their official in-game avatars always have a
>> last name
>> of "Linden").
>>
>> A couple of weeks ago, I raised the possibility of modifying the
>> Second Life
>> client (which is now open source) to allow it to launch other virtual
>> world
>> clients of the peer to peer variety (specifically Croquet) so that
>> Second Life
>> residents might step into another type of virtual world.

>
> 1) a way to launch/evoke Croquet on the SL client side (trivial);
>
> 2) a way of allowing participants in Croquet to continue to  
> communicate from
> within Croquet to their friends in SL without breaking the  
> immersion within the
> Croquet virtual world (this may be trivial from within the client--
> just accept
> text from the Croquet session as though it were keyboard input to  
> the message
> interface);
>

>
>
> The advantages for Croquet development are many: there is a  
> relatively large
> user-base of SL with, according to what I have read, roughly 80,000  
> paying
> customers and 1 million casual users per month. If even a tiny  
> fraction of
> these users started using Croquet, that would boost the regular use  
> of this
> environment many-fold and provide researchers a way of soliciting  
> subjects for
> various test environments within Croquet.
>

>
> On Jul 17, 2007, at 1:01 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>
>> 1) a way to launch/evoke Croquet on the SL client side (trivial);
>>
>> 2) a way of allowing participants in Croquet to continue to
>> communicate from
>> within Croquet to their friends in SL without breaking the immersion
>> within the
>> Croquet virtual world (this may be trivial from within the
>> client--just accept
>> text from the Croquet session as though it were keyboard input to the
>> message
>> interface);
>>
>
> Croquet has support for Jabber IM - so text chat between universes
> would be trivial were Second Life to support Jabber. I'm surprised
> they have not gotten around to this yet because people with standard
> Jabber clients would have a way to talk to people inside the worlds.
> This was part of the reason that we added Jabber to Croquet. Yes,
> there is also a pure Croquet-transport chat, and SL has a proprietary
> chat of its own, but allowing Jabber chat to run alongside proprietary
> in-world services would be a standard way of advertising presence. If
> you map Jabber chat rooms to virtual world spaces/locations you can
> advertise a virtual space location to people who only have an IM
> client. David Smith said that text chat is the dial tone of virtual
> worlds, and he is right.
>
> Jabber also provides a nice transport for xml-encoded payloads, so an
> Second Life SLurl or a Croquet location postcard could be passed to
> friends in the other world via Jabber. We already have support for
> XML-encoded croquet location postcards in the current Croquet SDK.
>
>
>> 3) a way to import at least a substantial subset of the current SL
>> avatar's
>> appearance to provide a feel of continuity between SL and Croquet (SL
>> avatar
>> meshes are somewhat well documented and accept Poser output as
>> templates for
>> avatars in-game);
>>
>
> It has never been clear to me what the licensing terms are for for the
> Poser meshes that SL uses - but we know is it possible to make them
> work in Croquet - we did that a proof-of-concept last year
> [http://croquet-bento.blogspot.com/2006/06/better-avatars.html]. I'm
> still waiting for Akbar 'n Jeff's Avatar Hut to open for business.
>
> Another question is what the SL content creators would think about the
> clothes, prim hair, and other accessories they sell for Linden space
> bucks in SL being instanced into another technology - and the
> licensing terms for that. Most avatars in SL are heavily customized
> and would probably want to carry that look along with them. The issue
> of SL animation overrides is also a big deal here - a lot of the
> character of SL avatars is defined by the animations chosen. Furries
> are another issue since those avatars overlay the entire SL avatar
> mesh with an anthropomorphic animal look built from SL prims.
>
> So... small steps first? Maybe settle for establishing that the same
> person is running the account in the other world? If the currency of
> online social spaces is reputation, probably the most important thing
> is being able to carry your name with you. I look forward to the day
> when Prokofy Neva and Plastic Duck duke it out in Croquet with
> Urizenus Sklar providing running commentary - and if they wear
> different avatars in the early days, that is probably OK - they will
> still fight.
>
> So if the biggest issue is identity - rather than the look and feel of
> the avatars - maybe some sort of federated identity system is what we
> should be talking about? Shibboleth would certainly make the higher ed
> community happy and could leverage other standards-based work...
>
>>
>>
>> The advantages for Croquet development are many: there is a
>> relatively large
>> user-base of SL with, according to what I have read, roughly 80,000
>> paying
>> customers and 1 million casual users per month. If even a tiny
>> fraction of
>> these users started using Croquet, that would boost the regular use
>> of this
>> environment many-fold and provide researchers a way of soliciting
>> subjects for
>> various test environments within Croquet.
>>
>
> even better, we would get some avatar, animation, and clothing
> designers interested in Croquet.
>
>
> Mark P. McCahill
> Architect, Computing Systems
> Duke University - Office of Information Technology
> 334 Blackwell Street, Suite 2107
> Durham, North Carolina 27701
> USA
>
> [hidden email]
> +1 919-724-0708  (mobile)
> +1 929 668 2964  (fax)
>
>
>

> There will continue to be people with the same ideas for bridging SL
> and Croquet in various ways but there is much more to be gained for
> Croquet to bridge with the world wide web. It should be as easy as
> moving between web sites for people to move between Croquet worlds.
>
> I don't mean to hijack this SL-to-Croquet thread with Web-to-Croquet
> talk but I do think it's worth mentioning in the same breath because
> many of the benefits you can consider for SL-to-Croquet can be had
> tenfold or more if you bridge croquet to a more popular and
> user-friendly technology. The web is absolutely everywhere. SL is
> still pretty niche, despite the lavish press.
>
> Second Life currently retains very few players (most people who step
> virtual foot on Help Island never come back). Plain old web sites
> account for the majority of the "virtual locations" where people are
> actively socializing, shopping, and collaborating online. Croquet is
> difficult to get started with (imo) and it would benefit more from
> bridging to peer-to-peer communities that encompass tens of millions
> of active users rather than a proprietary virtual world platform that
> has had a real problem attracting and retaining a mainstream audience.
>
> SL got more free press and promotion than any online game/virtual
> world to date but it still has failed to be even a fraction as popular
> as something like MySpace which didn't get hardly any mainstream press
> when it was going through it's first boom phase. People took to
> MySpace because it established critical mass (everybody else had a
> profile so you got one too, and the service required you to sign up to
> see the details on your friends' pages) and the learning curve was
> pretty light. There are now over 100 million MySpace accounts, though
> many are duplicates and commercial organizations rather than
> individual users (but the same can be said for SL account demographics).
>
> I was active with the Intermetaverse group when it started this spring
> but I had to move away from the project after talking it over with
> another small biz owner in the game industry who pointed out just how
> small SL penetration is considering their massive promotion. Croquet
> has a lot going for it over other virtual world platforms (mainly
> because croquet was designed to be so much more) but it's got an
> uphill battle for attracting opensource developers (though the devs
> will come if the users are there with unmet needs for gadgets,
> plugins, etc.). The platform is hard to develop on and a bit wonky (as
> self-evident in the number of current live croquet worlds). So working
> on a croquet-SL bridge is like trying to bring together a technology
> few people know well with a virtual world few people want to play in.
> Some benefits no doubt, but overall... how much is it going to help
> either platform? I'm of the mind now that the only online "world"
> worth creating a seamless bridge to is the world wide web itself.
>
> Make a croquet copy/past widget that lets people put a "door" to their
> croquet space right on their myspace page or blog. Make a distro of
> croquet that QUICKLY sets up a blank personal space for someone/an
> organization so you can unzip it to your web server, run an install
> script and go to town adding images and content. Make a back-end for
> croquet that allows web-based administration like most CMS
> applications. Make a plugin interface for opensource devs to quickly
> start adding new features with a familiar plugin/module metaphor. Make
> a front-end web page that literally acts as a store-front or public
> lobby/door to a croquet world (I mean an attractive, sophisticated
> wizard that lets visitors sign up and create an avatar in a *web page*
> before they even jump into a croquet world to lessen the learning
> curve and make it more familiar. Transition people from the web to
> Croquet smoothly and you will have completely surpassed SL in ease of
> use. SL is not a model to be followed unless you also want Croquet
> users to mostly be turned off (seriously, their retention rate is like
> less than 10%). The SL client might be modifiable but it's a huge
> download and still requires people sign up for SL and login to their
> servers... why put that between users and Croquet?
>
> It's a good idea for some and I hope to see more progress for the
> people in SL who are interested but I also hope Croquet also makes
> inroads with mainstream technologies like web sites. The first person
> who does a shared-hosting Croquet world server (like shared web
> hosting) so average Joes and Janes can set up their own quick and
> dirty virtual worlds... well, let's just say that person better be
> prepared for a MySpace-level boom. Virtual spaces are going to be the
> new must-have online swag that "home pages" were in the 90's and
> social networking profiles were in the past 5 years. Second Life
> delivers that already to the few that can muscle past the interface
> and figure out what to do in SL but mainstream users need more ease of
> use- like copy and past ease of use. Not everyone could make their own
> home page so wysiwyg editors for html were all the rage back in the
> day. Croquet could offer that same kind of accessibility for virtual
> worlds. It would be nice if SL did too, but they are trying to be many
> things to many markets and in doing that they are not particularly
> well-suited to any one of them. The key is to look at the common
> activities that *almost everyone* in SL does (socializing, chat,
> shopping, uploading 2D pics or art, building simple 3D things or
> buying them to decorate a personal space, taking lots of pics of their
> avatars/friends) and make a simple croquet app that does that with the
> same ease of use as a web site wysiwyg editor. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Kelly
>

> There will continue to be people with the same ideas for bridging  
> SL and Croquet in various ways but there is much more to be gained  
> for Croquet to bridge with the world wide web. It should be as easy  
> as moving between web sites for people to move between Croquet worlds.
>
> I don't mean to hijack this SL-to-Croquet thread with Web-to-
> Croquet talk but I do think it's worth mentioning in the same  
> breath because many of the benefits you can consider for SL-to-
> Croquet can be had tenfold or more if you bridge croquet to a more  
> popular and user-friendly technology. The web is absolutely  
> everywhere. SL is still pretty niche, despite the lavish press.
>
> Second Life currently retains very few players (most people who  
> step virtual foot on Help Island never come back). Plain old web  
> sites account for the majority of the "virtual locations" where  
> people are actively socializing, shopping, and collaborating  
> online. Croquet is difficult to get started with (imo) and it would  
> benefit more from bridging to peer-to-peer communities that  
> encompass tens of millions of active users rather than a  
> proprietary virtual world platform that has had a real problem  
> attracting and retaining a mainstream audience.
>
> SL got more free press and promotion than any online game/virtual  
> world to date but it still has failed to be even a fraction as  
> popular as something like MySpace which didn't get hardly any  
> mainstream press when it was going through it's first boom phase.  
> People took to MySpace because it established critical mass  
> (everybody else had a profile so you got one too, and the service  
> required you to sign up to see the details on your friends' pages)  
> and the learning curve was pretty light. There are now over 100  
> million MySpace accounts, though many are duplicates and commercial  
> organizations rather than individual users (but the same can be  
> said for SL account demographics).
>
> I was active with the Intermetaverse group when it started this  
> spring but I had to move away from the project after talking it  
> over with another small biz owner in the game industry who pointed  
> out just how small SL penetration is considering their massive  
> promotion. Croquet has a lot going for it over other virtual world  
> platforms (mainly because croquet was designed to be so much more)  
> but it's got an uphill battle for attracting opensource developers  
> (though the devs will come if the users are there with unmet needs  
> for gadgets, plugins, etc.). The platform is hard to develop on and  
> a bit wonky (as self-evident in the number of current live croquet  
> worlds). So working on a croquet-SL bridge is like trying to bring  
> together a technology few people know well with a virtual world few  
> people want to play in. Some benefits no doubt, but overall... how  
> much is it going to help either platform? I'm of the mind now that  
> the only online "world" worth creating a seamless bridge to is the  
> world wide web itself.
>
> Make a croquet copy/past widget that lets people put a "door" to  
> their croquet space right on their myspace page or blog. Make a  
> distro of croquet that QUICKLY sets up a blank personal space for  
> someone/an organization so you can unzip it to your web server, run  
> an install script and go to town adding images and content. Make a  
> back-end for croquet that allows web-based administration like most  
> CMS applications. Make a plugin interface for opensource devs to  
> quickly start adding new features with a familiar plugin/module  
> metaphor. Make a front-end web page that literally acts as a store-
> front or public lobby/door to a croquet world (I mean an  
> attractive, sophisticated wizard that lets visitors sign up and  
> create an avatar in a *web page* before they even jump into a  
> croquet world to lessen the learning curve and make it more  
> familiar. Transition people from the web to Croquet smoothly and  
> you will have completely surpassed SL in ease of use. SL is not a  
> model to be followed unless you also want Croquet users to mostly  
> be turned off (seriously, their retention rate is like less than  
> 10%). The SL client might be modifiable but it's a huge download  
> and still requires people sign up for SL and login to their  
> servers... why put that between users and Croquet?
>
> It's a good idea for some and I hope to see more progress for the  
> people in SL who are interested but I also hope Croquet also makes  
> inroads with mainstream technologies like web sites. The first  
> person who does a shared-hosting Croquet world server (like shared  
> web hosting) so average Joes and Janes can set up their own quick  
> and dirty virtual worlds... well, let's just say that person better  
> be prepared for a MySpace-level boom. Virtual spaces are going to  
> be the new must-have online swag that "home pages" were in the 90's  
> and social networking profiles were in the past 5 years. Second  
> Life delivers that already to the few that can muscle past the  
> interface and figure out what to do in SL but mainstream users need  
> more ease of use- like copy and past ease of use. Not everyone  
> could make their own home page so wysiwyg editors for html were all  
> the rage back in the day. Croquet could offer that same kind of  
> accessibility for virtual worlds. It would be nice if SL did too,  
> but they are trying to be many things to many markets and in doing  
> that they are not particularly well-suited to any one of them. The  
> key is to look at the common activities that *almost everyone* in  
> SL does (socializing, chat, shopping, uploading 2D pics or art,  
> building simple 3D things or buying them to decorate a personal  
> space, taking lots of pics of their avatars/friends) and make a  
> simple croquet app that does that with the same ease of use as a  
> web site wysiwyg editor. :)
>
> Cheers,
> Kelly
>

> The motivation for a Croquet/SecondLife interaction is apparently just
> to have fun and see what happens. That sounds great, and my chief
> reaction from the sidelines is "just do it."
>
> Some of the conversation has been circling around what kinds of things
> are likely to work out well, and which might be dead-end traps in
> which it can be deceptively difficult to produce inspiring results.
>
> For example, SL has many participants, but the Web has more. For that
> matter, so does soccer and Coca Cola. Shouldn't Croquet do something
> with them? Part of the answer, I think, is not about technology fits,
> but simply about the people involved in each effort. Just get good
> folks together. I think Croquet itself came about from such an idea.  
> I imagine that there are enough commonalities in the Croquet and SL
> communities to spark some inspiration.
>
> There's also been some concern about issues of ownership. While a
> Croquet/SL interaction might highlight some issues of "intellectual
> property", I think it's reasonable to ask: "Are these proposals
> fundamentally different than changes that are happening in the world
> anyway?"  If not, then don't worry about it.  While machinery to
> protect secrets is a good and reasonable thing, I feel it's untenable
> to permit people access to something that they are then not allowed to
> use.  If the goal of a Croquet/SL bridge is to try "something fun,"
> why get bogged down limiting non-scarce, non-real property? That's as
> useless as preparing to fight the previous war.

>
>   SL - is it easy 3D chat? (The simplification maybe being that
> avatars are more comprehensible than text for social interaction?) I'm
> not sure. Mark raises a good point in wondering why SL doesn't do
> Jabber.  And why don't they integrate with VoIP and the plain old
> telephone system? It may be that they will do these things, but if
> they're considered a success without having done so, than I'm not sure
> that providing simpler chat explains such success. I'm guessing the
> real core value of SL is as an identity-provider. (More insight from
> Mark!)   [Digression: How does incorporating open identity-management
> relate to this core value? I don't know: it could strengthen or weaken
> it.]  Suppose that identity management is what SL would fundamentally
> bring to the table in a Croquet/SL mash-up. Are there better choices,
> such as Facebook? I think neither Facebook nor Second Life have any
> particular technology magic for identity management. But I do think
> they both have built some extraordinarily good social magic: people
> want to establish their identity in these worlds. Which brings us back
> to the idea of people and community as the value, rather than
> technology, which is where this started.
>
> -H
>
>

>
> I see the metaverse as a place for education, mutual education such as
> Wikipedia. In that sense, its market value is part of a larger package
> of education and assessment (via a created portfolio). One might
> describe Croquet's help as a blend of Discovery Channel simulations
> and Wikipedia. For in this world who have a perspective which they
> want to win others to their point of view, much printed literature,
> videos, and audio recordings have been made and given away for free.
> An interactive simulations whose rules people can explore, change, and
> play with would help them as well. Many web sites are created w/o an
> interest to create money just because it has a large audience and are
> available for mash-ups and general pubic consumption (government
> agencies). Croquet might be the same.
>
> I think Croquet and SL have significantly different strengths. Croquet
> when you need complete control of the environment and instant access
> at all times for one's project. Also, for when you have a small target
> audience and don't want to risk something visible to the public. When
> one needs a complete programming language. When one needs infinite
> real estate and no restrictions on model, simulation size. For
> applications needing true sizable fonts and interconnections between
> text and the simulation. For leveraging common programming connections
> and protocols to devices in the real world. For deep collaboration in
> construction of models and simulations.
>

> Croquet can record and play back many aspects of the simulation and
> mutual learning sessions while one can't in second life.
>
> SL is for pubic exhibition of models, and simple simulations. For
> public discussions about the models/simulations. For a marketplace.
>
> So the interconnections between SL and Croquet in my mind are:
> 1) Rapidly prototype a simulation in Croquet with a small team until
> the concepts are clear enough for public performance, discussion and
> marketing, then release to SL.
>
> 2) Start in SL with a public discussion among those interested in a
> given interest/discipline to determine a need. Prototype in SL then,
> when SL limits are reached, port to Croquet for polishing and private
> distribution.
>
> 3) Have Croquet be an engine for computations and just display the
> results in SL, using SL as something like a puppet.
>
> 4) Use Croquet for projects needing more than 70 simultaneous
> visitors. Use SL for projects needing fewer. Croquet's visibility
> filters can allow many people to function in the same world w/o
> interfering with each other (in the same manner as how one is
> prevented from meeting one's self at "Milliways", the "Restaurant at
> the End of the Universe").
>
> 5) Use Croquet for procedurally generated models and textures and SL
> for static ones.
>
> And, so to each his own universe.
> Darius
>

> Darius Clarke wrote:
>> I know that several of the chief architects of Croquet have friends
>> working at Linden Labs. I'm sure both are aware of each other's
>> overriding goals.
>
> As I said before, Zero Linden, director of "Icehouse Studio," the
> architectural programming division of Linden Labs, used to work for
> Dan Ingals at Apple.
>
>>
>> I think that Lawson might not be aware of how more universities are
>> using Croquet than businesses so it has a "research for research's
>> sake to explore possibilities" perspective for many of its purposes.
>
> I'm quite aware of this. My tirade was directed towards someone whom I
> felt was apparently advocating the theft (in the legal and moral sense
> of the word) of intellectual property because it wasn't real.
>
>
>>
>> Croquet is still a technology. Not an marketplace. I've also read a
>> survey that said most users of Second Life exist online for "voyeur"
>> reasons. They live in simple dwellings with little hope of many
>> material possessions or to own a home. So, they "live large" in Second
>> Life, not necessarly to make money. Also, this might explain why the
>> SL visitors don't travel much (except to the dances).
> I am sure that there are people like that. There have been 2 million
> new visitors to Second LIfe in teh past 2 months, according to this
> Newsweek article that just came out today:
>
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19876812/site/newsweek/
>
> I tend to doubt that most of them end up in the dance halls since you
> must first learn a great deal about SL in order to fully participate
> in such places.
>
>
> And while many people no doubt are living a vicarious life in SL, it
> is hardly just dancing, though I'm told that many wheelchair bound
> people DO frequent the night clubs in order to dance.
>
> Others engage in virtual reality tourism and visit the myriad palaces,
> mosques, fantasy/sci-fi creations, etc., that people have created.
> Qarl Linden, the animation guru at LInden Labs, wrote a program to
> create giant cube with 7 virtual miles of corridors, based on a cavern
> generation formula. I know a woman who has created a smaller system of
> more real-looking caves and tunnels that she is using as a teaching
> aid in classes on geology.
>
> Islands exist for combat, and role playing based on virtually every
> major fantasy and sci-fi book ever written. These islands cost $3500
> up front, and $200/month paid to Linden Labs. It is doubtful that
> philantropists are funding them, so the "landowners" must be
> generating decent income from the people that use the islands on a
> regular basis.
>
> Other people lecture in-world on real world topics. Still others teach
> in-world on SL topics. IBM maintains at least 19 islands for research,
> public relations and teaching purposes. Their CodeStation island is
> considered one of the best in-world references for programming in
> Second Life.
>
> There exists a consortium of librarians that volunteer their time for
> between 50-70 hours per week to answer real-world and SL-related
> research questions at the Second Life Library island, one of 5 or 10  
> "Info Islands" supported by educational grant money. At the same time,
> students and faculty of library science departments around the world
> are researching how to devise a genuinely useful "virtual library,"
> using these SL islands and the many hundreds of visitors per day as
> their research sources.
>
> Manpower, one of the largest temp agencies in the world, maintains a
> HQ in second life that is staffed by paid employees 24 hours/day, 7
> days per week. They are exploring the virtual reality workplace and
> how it relates to their realworld business.
>
> The Second House of Sweden is a virtual copy of the House of Sweden,
> the Swedish Embassy in Washington DC. It is staffed by embassy
> employees from DC and Swedish Institute employees living in Sweden,
> who answer questions on Sweden and Swdish businesses and universities
> and architecture.
>
>
> There are roughly 10,000 islands in Second Life. Not all of them are
> residential or casinos or dance halls. And I know people who operate
> home businesses out of their little Second Life houses, so its not
> merely a way of collecting virtual reality junk to make them feel
> better about their squalid real lives..
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> I see the metaverse as a place for education, mutual education such as
>> Wikipedia. In that sense, its market value is part of a larger package
>> of education and assessment (via a created portfolio). One might
>> describe Croquet's help as a blend of Discovery Channel simulations
>> and Wikipedia. For in this world who have a perspective which they
>> want to win others to their point of view, much printed literature,
>> videos, and audio recordings have been made and given away for free.
>> An interactive simulations whose rules people can explore, change, and
>> play with would help them as well. Many web sites are created w/o an
>> interest to create money just because it has a large audience and are
>> available for mash-ups and general pubic consumption (government
>> agencies). Croquet might be the same.
>>
>> I think Croquet and SL have significantly different strengths. Croquet
>> when you need complete control of the environment and instant access
>> at all times for one's project. Also, for when you have a small target
>> audience and don't want to risk something visible to the public. When
>> one needs a complete programming language. When one needs infinite
>> real estate and no restrictions on model, simulation size. For
>> applications needing true sizable fonts and interconnections between
>> text and the simulation. For leveraging common programming connections
>> and protocols to devices in the real world. For deep collaboration in
>> construction of models and simulations.
>>
> All very useful, and a very detailed conception of what I see as the
> advantage of creating an interface between Croquet (as it exists
> currently) and SL (as it exists currently).
>
>
>> Croquet can record and play back many aspects of the simulation and
>> mutual learning sessions while one can't in second life.
>>
>> SL is for pubic exhibition of models, and simple simulations. For
>> public discussions about the models/simulations. For a marketplace.
>>
>> So the interconnections between SL and Croquet in my mind are:
>> 1) Rapidly prototype a simulation in Croquet with a small team until
>> the concepts are clear enough for public performance, discussion and
>> marketing, then release to SL.
>>
>> 2) Start in SL with a public discussion among those interested in a
>> given interest/discipline to determine a need. Prototype in SL then,
>> when SL limits are reached, port to Croquet for polishing and private
>> distribution.
>>
>> 3) Have Croquet be an engine for computations and just display the
>> results in SL, using SL as something like a puppet.
>>
>> 4) Use Croquet for projects needing more than 70 simultaneous
>> visitors. Use SL for projects needing fewer. Croquet's visibility
>> filters can allow many people to function in the same world w/o
>> interfering with each other (in the same manner as how one is
>> prevented from meeting one's self at "Milliways", the "Restaurant at
>> the End of the Universe").
>>
>> 5) Use Croquet for procedurally generated models and textures and SL
>> for static ones.
>>
>> And, so to each his own universe.
>> Darius
>>
> All of what you say has merit, and is almost 100% valid, currently,
> but don't assume that SL's architecture is static, anymore than
> Croquet's is. The current SL architecture was designed to handle
> perhaps 1/10 to 1/100 of the number of users that it is now
> supporting. Assumptions about how many avatars can co-exist in a sim,
> etc., are probably going to be off by an order of magnitude by the end
> of next year. Likewise, assumptions about graphics and physics
> capabilities.
>
> As both systems mature, the nature of the collaboration may well
> change. What is an advantage this year, may not be one next year, but
> by next year, Croquet may offer NEW things that SL lacks. It behooves
> both sides to keep an open mind about what value can be found in
> collaboration.
>
> That said, a simple one-way portal from SL to Croquet will almost
> certainly offerone  timeless advantage to Croquet developers: warm
> bodies to test things. In order to keep those warm bodies flowing, new
> capabilities will need to be devised. Having such a challenge and
> rising to meet it can only be seen as a good thing, I think.
>