Simple Frame Adornments - default value (was: unsaved changes indicator)

> Thanks for adding the preference, but unfortunately the default is
> false such that the new way still presses in for each new image.
>
> In the original thread, there were two people who expressed this was a
> "step backward" for them, but there were no proponents for the change
> voiced.  Therefore, unless there are strong objectors who can make
> some arguments for, I'd like to put the default value for this to
> restore the default functionality that has been there for years.
>
> 3.11 has suffered several usability degradations over 3.9 in terms of
> the UI.  I would like to begin addressing them, starting with this
> one.

> On 3/3/2010 12:40 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
>>
>> Thanks for adding the preference, but unfortunately the default is
>> false such that the new way still presses in for each new image.
>>
>> In the original thread, there were two people who expressed this was a
>> "step backward" for them, but there were no proponents for the change
>> voiced.  Therefore, unless there are strong objectors who can make
>> some arguments for, I'd like to put the default value for this to
>> restore the default functionality that has been there for years.
>>
>> 3.11 has suffered several usability degradations over 3.9 in terms of
>> the UI.  I would like to begin addressing them, starting with this
>> one.
>
> A big fat -1 from me. From my perspective the rectangular frame is ugly.
> Simple as that. It's visually unpleasant and in conflict with the rest of
> the window and the default shouldn't be that. If the new cue is too subtle
> to be of use for you personally, that's what we got preferences for, but I
> think we should at least *try* to get a teenie weenie bit less heinous in
> the default L&F.
>
> Cheers,
>  - Andreas
>
>

> Ok, thanks for speaking up, I just didn't know whether there was any
> voice at all for the new look.
>
> And please don't get me wrong, I am *all for* better form.  And I even
> agree, this one "looks" better, artistically.  It's just that some of
> the 3.11 improvements to form have come at a cost to function, and
> THAT, in itself, can sometimes detracts from form somewhat (i.e.,
> greater function has implicitly better form).  Perhaps we considered
> making the ugly solid-line red-frame simply look better, like with
> three progressively-more translucent rectangles, each inset one pixel
> of the outer?  Or maybe a combination of the two looks, one
> (translucent?) line combined with the new (corner) look.
>
> Since your -1 is big and fat, I consider it the winner of the vote and
> I'll adjust my own Preference file accordingly.  Going forward, if we
> can find ways to have our cake and eat it too, it would be better than
> having introduce a yet another Preference that forces one to choose
> between form and function.
>
>  - Chris
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On 3/3/2010 12:40 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for adding the preference, but unfortunately the default is
>>> false such that the new way still presses in for each new image.
>>>
>>> In the original thread, there were two people who expressed this was a
>>> "step backward" for them, but there were no proponents for the change
>>> voiced.  Therefore, unless there are strong objectors who can make
>>> some arguments for, I'd like to put the default value for this to
>>> restore the default functionality that has been there for years.
>>>
>>> 3.11 has suffered several usability degradations over 3.9 in terms of
>>> the UI.  I would like to begin addressing them, starting with this
>>> one.
>>
>> A big fat -1 from me. From my perspective the rectangular frame is ugly.
>> Simple as that. It's visually unpleasant and in conflict with the rest of
>> the window and the default shouldn't be that. If the new cue is too subtle
>> to be of use for you personally, that's what we got preferences for, but I
>> think we should at least *try* to get a teenie weenie bit less heinous in
>> the default L&F.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>  - Andreas
>>
>>
>
>

> Ok, thanks for speaking up, I just didn't know whether there was any
> voice at all for the new look.
>
> And please don't get me wrong, I am *all for* better form.  And I even
> agree, this one "looks" better, artistically.  It's just that some of
> the 3.11 improvements to form have come at a cost to function, and
> THAT, in itself, can sometimes detracts from form somewhat (i.e.,
> greater function has implicitly better form).  Perhaps we considered
> making the ugly solid-line red-frame simply look better, like with
> three progressively-more translucent rectangles, each inset one pixel
> of the outer?  Or maybe a combination of the two looks, one
> (translucent?) line combined with the new (corner) look.
>
> Since your -1 is big and fat, I consider it the winner of the vote and
> I'll adjust my own Preference file accordingly.

> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Andreas Raab<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> On 3/3/2010 12:40 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks for adding the preference, but unfortunately the default is
>>> false such that the new way still presses in for each new image.
>>>
>>> In the original thread, there were two people who expressed this was a
>>> "step backward" for them, but there were no proponents for the change
>>> voiced.  Therefore, unless there are strong objectors who can make
>>> some arguments for, I'd like to put the default value for this to
>>> restore the default functionality that has been there for years.
>>>
>>> 3.11 has suffered several usability degradations over 3.9 in terms of
>>> the UI.  I would like to begin addressing them, starting with this
>>> one.
>>
>> A big fat -1 from me. From my perspective the rectangular frame is ugly.
>> Simple as that. It's visually unpleasant and in conflict with the rest of
>> the window and the default shouldn't be that. If the new cue is too subtle
>> to be of use for you personally, that's what we got preferences for, but I
>> think we should at least *try* to get a teenie weenie bit less heinous in
>> the default L&F.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>   - Andreas
>>
>>
>
>

> Sure a red frame is not very pretty aesthetically speaking (although I'd be
> hard pressed to rate an orange rectangle in the corner as a dramatic
> improvement), but it provides a very clear visual clue that is accessible
> *immediately*, without focusing on a window corner with my eyes.
>
> Substance > Style
>
> That said, as long as it's a preference, I don't mind what the default value
> is.
>
> I'd like to ask all folks messing with the user interface to always add
> preferences for the the changes you do - in other words: add features and
> keep the old ones. Don't replace. I'm open to trying out new things and see
> if they speed up my workflow, but chances are they won't.
>
> rado
>
>
> On Thu, 4 Mar 2010, Igor Stasenko wrote:
>
>> Chris,
>> i add -1 to red outline too. This is a counterintuitive and ugly.
>> I still remember when i first opened squeak and i were unable to
>> figure out what this red herring means. :)
>>
>> On 4 March 2010 00:22, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> Ok, thanks for speaking up, I just didn't know whether there was any
>>> voice at all for the new look.
>>>
>>> And please don't get me wrong, I am *all for* better form.  And I even
>>> agree, this one "looks" better, artistically.  It's just that some of
>>> the 3.11 improvements to form have come at a cost to function, and
>>> THAT, in itself, can sometimes detracts from form somewhat (i.e.,
>>> greater function has implicitly better form).  Perhaps we considered
>>> making the ugly solid-line red-frame simply look better, like with
>>> three progressively-more translucent rectangles, each inset one pixel
>>> of the outer?  Or maybe a combination of the two looks, one
>>> (translucent?) line combined with the new (corner) look.
>>>
>>> Since your -1 is big and fat, I consider it the winner of the vote and
>>> I'll adjust my own Preference file accordingly.  Going forward, if we
>>> can find ways to have our cake and eat it too, it would be better than
>>> having introduce a yet another Preference that forces one to choose
>>> between form and function.
>>>
>>>  - Chris
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:49 PM, Andreas Raab <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 3/3/2010 12:40 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for adding the preference, but unfortunately the default is
>>>>> false such that the new way still presses in for each new image.
>>>>>
>>>>> In the original thread, there were two people who expressed this was a
>>>>> "step backward" for them, but there were no proponents for the change
>>>>> voiced.  Therefore, unless there are strong objectors who can make
>>>>> some arguments for, I'd like to put the default value for this to
>>>>> restore the default functionality that has been there for years.
>>>>>
>>>>> 3.11 has suffered several usability degradations over 3.9 in terms of
>>>>> the UI.  I would like to begin addressing them, starting with this
>>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>> A big fat -1 from me. From my perspective the rectangular frame is ugly.
>>>> Simple as that. It's visually unpleasant and in conflict with the rest
>>>> of
>>>> the window and the default shouldn't be that. If the new cue is too
>>>> subtle
>>>> to be of use for you personally, that's what we got preferences for, but
>>>> I
>>>> think we should at least *try* to get a teenie weenie bit less heinous
>>>> in
>>>> the default L&F.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>  - Andreas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko AKA sig.
>
>
>
>

> On 3/3/2010 12:40 PM, Chris Muller wrote:
> > Thanks for adding the preference, but unfortunately the default is
> > false such that the new way still presses in for each new image.
> >
> > In the original thread, there were two people who expressed this was a
> > "step backward" for them, but there were no proponents for the change
> > voiced.  Therefore, unless there are strong objectors who can make
> > some arguments for, I'd like to put the default value for this to
> > restore the default functionality that has been there for years.
> >
> > 3.11 has suffered several usability degradations over 3.9 in terms of
> > the UI.  I would like to begin addressing them, starting with this
> > one.
>
> A big fat -1 from me. From my perspective the rectangular frame is ugly.
> Simple as that. It's visually unpleasant and in conflict with the rest
> of the window and the default shouldn't be that. If the new cue is too
> subtle to be of use for you personally, that's what we got preferences
> for, but I think we should at least *try* to get a teenie weenie bit
> less heinous in the default L&F.
>
> Cheers,
>    - Andreas
>