Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

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Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

Alex Schenkman
Hi List:

Does anyone know why Sophie is being ported to Java?
In this page, they mention Astea Solutions and their contributed Java codebase...

"Sophie is currently being significantly revised and improved, thanks to a third grant from the Mellon Foundation in October, 2008 and to a Java codebase contributed by Astea Solutions, a company formed to design and develop proprietary and open source electronic publishing products. With this funding, Sophie is not only being rewritten in Java to enhance its stability, but is being transformed from its initial iteration as a powerful multimedia authoring too into a reading and authoring environment that incorporates the recent cultural shifts instigated by social networking and software."

I have not used Sophie myself, but was it unstable?

Thanks!
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Re: Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

johnmci

On 2009-11-04, at 2:01 PM, alesch wrote:

>
> Hi List:
>
> Does anyone know why Sophie is being ported to Java?
> In  http://sophie2.org/trac/wiki/AboutPage this page , they mention  
> Astea
> Solutions and their contributed Java codebase...

You'll find questions and reasons via
http://ask.slashdot.org/story/08/10/03/1547256/How-To-Kill-an-Open-Source-Project-With-New-Funding?art_pos=1

On Nov 15th guess we'll see
http://www.sophie2.org/users/users_home.html


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Re: Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

Bert Freudenberg

On 05.11.2009, at 00:25, John M McIntosh wrote:

>
> On 2009-11-04, at 2:01 PM, alesch wrote:
>
>>
>> Hi List:
>>
>> Does anyone know why Sophie is being ported to Java?
>> In  http://sophie2.org/trac/wiki/AboutPage this page , they mention  
>> Astea
>> Solutions and their contributed Java codebase...
>
> You'll find questions and reasons via
> http://ask.slashdot.org/story/08/10/03/1547256/How-To-Kill-an-Open-Source-Project-With-New-Funding?art_pos=1

In particular, from

http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=984735&cid=25252253

"Unfortunately, despite a lot of interest among individual faculty and  
a few small programs, the widespread institutional adoption necessary  
to form a viable Sophie 1.0 sustaining community was not happening -  
due in large part, our inquiries suggested, to lack of interest in  
supporting an enterprise software application written in Squeak. In  
the community whose support was most essential to Sophie's survival,  
everyone wanted a language that was more widely known and used; the  
largest single group of potential adopters wanted Java [...] The  
Squeak contractors were understandably unhappy about the move to Java,  
both because they lost the contract and because they believe in Squeak  
and want to see it used more widely. We have the greatest respect for  
their capabilities and their enthusiasm for their community, but our  
responsibilities to our own institutions, our community, and Mellon  
require us to give Sophie the greatest possible chance of success."


- Bert -



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Re: Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

Andreas.Raab
Bert Freudenberg wrote:

> "Unfortunately, despite a lot of interest among individual faculty and a
> few small programs, the widespread institutional adoption necessary to
> form a viable Sophie 1.0 sustaining community was not happening - due in
> large part, our inquiries suggested, to lack of interest in supporting
> an enterprise software application written in Squeak. In the community
> whose support was most essential to Sophie's survival, everyone wanted a
> language that was more widely known and used; the largest single group
> of potential adopters wanted Java [...] The Squeak contractors were
> understandably unhappy about the move to Java, both because they lost
> the contract and because they believe in Squeak and want to see it used
> more widely. We have the greatest respect for their capabilities and
> their enthusiasm for their community, but our responsibilities to our
> own institutions, our community, and Mellon require us to give Sophie
> the greatest possible chance of success."

Great summary for an issue that I've seen come up several times. A
couple of years back for example NASA evaluated Croquet for a project of
theirs and decided against it for basically the same reasons: They
needed people (other NASA scientists and engineers) who would build
add-ons and extensions and requiring those to learn Squeak was perceived
a hopeless exercise (and that isn't even mentioning the modularity
issues Squeak has).

When we faced the same issue again at Qwaq/Teleplace and this time we
decided to "work around" it by providing the extension APIs in Python
instead allowing direct access to Squeak. This has served us very well.

This entirely line of arguments is one of the better reasons why "being
popular" isn't such a bad thing :-)

Cheers,
   - Andreas

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Re: Re: Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

CdAB63
Em 05-11-2009 15:00, Andreas Raab escreveu:

> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> "Unfortunately, despite a lot of interest among individual faculty
>> and a few small programs, the widespread institutional adoption
>> necessary to form a viable Sophie 1.0 sustaining community was not
>> happening - due in large part, our inquiries suggested, to lack of
>> interest in supporting an enterprise software application written in
>> Squeak. In the community whose support was most essential to Sophie's
>> survival, everyone wanted a language that was more widely known and
>> used; the largest single group of potential adopters wanted Java
>> [...] The Squeak contractors were understandably unhappy about the
>> move to Java, both because they lost the contract and because they
>> believe in Squeak and want to see it used more widely. We have the
>> greatest respect for their capabilities and their enthusiasm for
>> their community, but our responsibilities to our own institutions,
>> our community, and Mellon require us to give Sophie the greatest
>> possible chance of success."
>
> Great summary for an issue that I've seen come up several times. A
> couple of years back for example NASA evaluated Croquet for a project
> of theirs and decided against it for basically the same reasons: They
> needed people (other NASA scientists and engineers) who would build
> add-ons and extensions and requiring those to learn Squeak was
> perceived a hopeless exercise (and that isn't even mentioning the
> modularity issues Squeak has).
>
> When we faced the same issue again at Qwaq/Teleplace and this time we
> decided to "work around" it by providing the extension APIs in Python
> instead allowing direct access to Squeak. This has served us very well.
>
> This entirely line of arguments is one of the better reasons why
> "being popular" isn't such a bad thing :-)
>
> Cheers,
>   - Andreas
>
>
From the marketing point of view, Sophie developers decision was
suicidal. They decided to release "yet another multimedia authoring
suite" in a much more savage commercial environment. They have my
sympathy but I see a clouded future for them.

Andreas, your observations are accurate & I agree with them.

About issues involving companies, while squeak and derivatives (Croquet)
keep themselves academic there will be little chance of commercial
adoption. Just let us put ourselves in the shoes of a decision maker:
Java is stable & fully documented & has loads of available developers
but if I decide to use squeak I won't have even a real reference book...
I'll be in the hands of a professional and if he decides to jump off the
project I'd better join him...

Obviously recent discussions regarding to the development of squeak and
the "spin-offs" didn't help much. In one hand they project an image of a
fractured community (and managers hate this kind of thing) and in the
other it reinforces the image of "a beta stuff" (meaning something with
specs really open & morphing/mutating development
boundaries/implemantations) and managers hate this too...

CdAB




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Re: Re: Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

Stéphane Rollandin
> Obviously recent discussions regarding to the development of squeak and
> the "spin-offs" didn't help much. In one hand they project an image of a
> fractured community (and managers hate this kind of thing) and in the
> other it reinforces the image of "a beta stuff" (meaning something with
> specs really open & morphing/mutating development
> boundaries/implemantations) and managers hate this too...

both images do reflect reality quite accurately, so there is not much we
can do about it...

Stef



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Re: Re: Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

Ken G. Brown
At 11:56 PM +0100 11/5/09, Stéphane Rollandin apparently wrote:

>>Obviously recent discussions regarding to the development of squeak and
>>the "spin-offs" didn't help much. In one hand they project an image of a
>>fractured community (and managers hate this kind of thing) and in the
>>other it reinforces the image of "a beta stuff" (meaning something with
>>specs really open & morphing/mutating development
>>boundaries/implemantations) and managers hate this too...
>
>both images do reflect reality quite accurately, so there is not much we can do about it...
>
>Stef

I downloaded both the authoring and reader versions of Sophie 2 for Mac from <http://www.sophie2.org/users/users_home.html> and they totally could not load the demo books from <http://sophie2.org/trac/wiki/ITERATION_12/Release/UserDocumentation/DemoBooks>.

Ken G. Brown

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Re: Re: Sophie 2.0 ported to Java. Why?

CdAB63
In reply to this post by Stéphane Rollandin
Em 05-11-2009 20:56, Stéphane Rollandin escreveu:

>> Obviously recent discussions regarding to the development of squeak and
>> the "spin-offs" didn't help much. In one hand they project an image of a
>> fractured community (and managers hate this kind of thing) and in the
>> other it reinforces the image of "a beta stuff" (meaning something with
>> specs really open & morphing/mutating development
>> boundaries/implemantations) and managers hate this too...
>
> both images do reflect reality quite accurately, so there is not much
> we can do about it...
>
> Stef
>
>
>
>
Some important steps happened indeed: the trunk is a real advance in
direction of a "pro-squeak". Since trunk "release" community has been
more cohesive and several "historic" issues have been approached in a
very positive way. Things are much better now than they've been 6 months
ago. I guess that at some point in foreseeable future most of the issues
regarding to "commercial use" of squeak will be dealt with.

CdAB




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