Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

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Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

ccrraaiigg

Hi all--

        I've reached a new minimum snapshot size (167,224 bytes uncompressed,
the previous one from 2003 was 211,504 bytes uncompressed).

        That's for a system which supports remote browsing. I've also conceived
a new design for the system tracer, one that implements it as a feature
of the simulator (which didn't exist when the current tracer was
written). With this tracer one will be able to write new snapshots
without having to trace the object memory in which the tracer is
running, and with certainty that every object in the result was required
for an interpreter to function.

        I suspect that the smallest "graceful" object memory (e.g., one that
just quits) will be something like 1000 bytes. Using Spoon's object
memory visualization tools, I've noticed that even the "3 plus 4"
snapshot from the Fenix project (15,192 bytes uncompressed) has a lot of
unnecessary stuff in it (e.g., Characters).


        thanks,

-C

http://netjam.org/spoon

--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
www.netjam.org
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]



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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

joshscholar
By the way I've found that it's impossible to get ANY version of the system
tracer.

The original system tracer isn't available, on SqueakMap and the url that's
supposed to be hosting SystemTracer2 and related utilities
(LargeCollections) no longer exists.

I also tried looking on the Wiki for the version of SystemTracer that the
group doing the conversion to 64 bits uses.  I didn't find that either.  But
perhaps if I had been willing to download their whole tar I would have found
it.

It is kind of a shame that there's no central repository that SqueakMap uses
rather than trusting a bunch of urls that apparently  belong to random
people and companies.

Josh Scholar

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Latta" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:50 PM
Subject: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer


>
> Hi all--
>
> I've reached a new minimum snapshot size (167,224 bytes uncompressed,
> the previous one from 2003 was 211,504 bytes uncompressed).
>
> That's for a system which supports remote browsing. I've also conceived
> a new design for the system tracer, one that implements it as a feature
> of the simulator (which didn't exist when the current tracer was
> written). With this tracer one will be able to write new snapshots
> without having to trace the object memory in which the tracer is
> running, and with certainty that every object in the result was required
> for an interpreter to function.
>
> I suspect that the smallest "graceful" object memory (e.g., one that
> just quits) will be something like 1000 bytes. Using Spoon's object
> memory visualization tools, I've noticed that even the "3 plus 4"
> snapshot from the Fenix project (15,192 bytes uncompressed) has a lot of
> unnecessary stuff in it (e.g., Characters).
>
>
> thanks,
>
> -C
>
> http://netjam.org/spoon
>
> --
> Craig Latta
> improvisational musical informaticist
> www.netjam.org
> Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
>
>
>
>


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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

timrowledge

On 15-Jan-06, at 9:12 PM, <[hidden email]>  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> By the way I've found that it's impossible to get ANY version of  
> the system
> tracer.
>
> The original system tracer isn't available,
Yes it is, its SM entry just hasn't been updated since I had to move  
my site. You wouldn't really want the old version though. I just  
removed it completely to remove confusion.

> on SqueakMap and the url that's
> supposed to be hosting SystemTracer2 and related utilities
> (LargeCollections) no longer exists.
Looks like the domain has lapsed. I haven't heard from Stephen Pair  
in ages so perhaps he's moved on to other interests.
I have put a copy of it on SM as 'SystemTracerV2' to return it to  
accessibility.

> I also tried looking on the Wiki for the version of SystemTracer  
> that the
> group doing the conversion to 64 bits uses.  I didn't find that  
> either.  But
> perhaps if I had been willing to download their whole tar I would  
> have found
> it.
>
> It is kind of a shame that there's no central repository that  
> SqueakMap uses
> rather than trusting a bunch of urls that apparently  belong to random
> people and companies.
There is. You can choose to use it or not. Many choose not.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Strange OpCodes: IXM: Initiate X-rated error Messages



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re: the old system tracer (was "Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer")

ccrraaiigg
In reply to this post by joshscholar

 > By the way I've found that it's impossible to get ANY version of the
 > system tracer.

        I'd expect to find it in the VMMaker package on SqueakMap, along with
the rest of the platform-independent virtual machine implementation.


-C

--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
www.netjam.org
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]



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Re: the old system tracer (was "Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer")

joshscholar
You made me to look :)

I didn't find anything called SystemTracer in any of the VMMaker packages.

Joshua Scholar

----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Latta" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 10:16 PM
Subject: re: the old system tracer (was "Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new
minimum, new system tracer")


>
>  > By the way I've found that it's impossible to get ANY version of the
>  > system tracer.
>
> I'd expect to find it in the VMMaker package on SqueakMap, along with
> the rest of the platform-independent virtual machine implementation.
>
>
> -C
>
> --
> Craig Latta
> improvisational musical informaticist
> www.netjam.org
> Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
>
>
>
>


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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

Edgar J. De Cleene
In reply to this post by joshscholar
[hidden email] puso en su mail :

> By the way I've found that it's impossible to get ANY version of the system
> tracer.
>
> The original system tracer isn't available, on SqueakMap and the url that's
> supposed to be hosting SystemTracer2 and related utilities
> (LargeCollections) no longer exists.
>
> I also tried looking on the Wiki for the version of SystemTracer that the
> group doing the conversion to 64 bits uses.  I didn't find that either.  But
> perhaps if I had been willing to download their whole tar I would have found
> it.
>
> It is kind of a shame that there's no central repository that SqueakMap uses
> rather than trusting a bunch of urls that apparently  belong to random
> people and companies.
>
> Josh Scholar
I send what I have, hope was useful to you




SystemTracer2.sar (15K) Download Attachment
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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

stéphane ducasse-2
In reply to this post by joshscholar
This is called squeaksource.

On 16 janv. 06, at 06:12, <[hidden email]>  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> By the way I've found that it's impossible to get ANY version of  
> the system
> tracer.
>
> The original system tracer isn't available, on SqueakMap and the  
> url that's
> supposed to be hosting SystemTracer2 and related utilities
> (LargeCollections) no longer exists.
>
> I also tried looking on the Wiki for the version of SystemTracer  
> that the
> group doing the conversion to 64 bits uses.  I didn't find that  
> either.  But
> perhaps if I had been willing to download their whole tar I would  
> have found
> it.
>
> It is kind of a shame that there's no central repository that  
> SqueakMap uses
> rather than trusting a bunch of urls that apparently  belong to random
> people and companies.
>
> Josh Scholar
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Craig Latta" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 7:50 PM
> Subject: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system  
> tracer
>
>
>>
>> Hi all--
>>
>> I've reached a new minimum snapshot size (167,224 bytes uncompressed,
>> the previous one from 2003 was 211,504 bytes uncompressed).
>>
>> That's for a system which supports remote browsing. I've also  
>> conceived
>> a new design for the system tracer, one that implements it as a  
>> feature
>> of the simulator (which didn't exist when the current tracer was
>> written). With this tracer one will be able to write new snapshots
>> without having to trace the object memory in which the tracer is
>> running, and with certainty that every object in the result was  
>> required
>> for an interpreter to function.
>>
>> I suspect that the smallest "graceful" object memory (e.g., one that
>> just quits) will be something like 1000 bytes. Using Spoon's object
>> memory visualization tools, I've noticed that even the "3 plus 4"
>> snapshot from the Fenix project (15,192 bytes uncompressed) has a  
>> lot of
>> unnecessary stuff in it (e.g., Characters).
>>
>>
>> thanks,
>>
>> -C
>>
>> http://netjam.org/spoon
>>
>> --
>> Craig Latta
>> improvisational musical informaticist
>> www.netjam.org
>> Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>


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SystemTracerV2 (was: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer)

David T. Lewis
In reply to this post by timrowledge
On Sun, Jan 15, 2006 at 10:13:38PM -0800, tim Rowledge wrote:
> > on SqueakMap and the url that's
> > supposed to be hosting SystemTracer2 and related utilities
> > (LargeCollections) no longer exists.
> Looks like the domain has lapsed. I haven't heard from Stephen Pair  
> in ages so perhaps he's moved on to other interests.
> I have put a copy of it on SM as 'SystemTracerV2' to return it to  
> accessibility.

Speaking of SystemTracer, I have a couple of questions:

1) Dan's 64 bit system tracer is tucked away at:
  http://squeakvm.org/squeak64/dist3/ChangeSets/System-Tracing.2.cs 

Could you merge this into SystemTracerV2 so it does not get lost?

2) This system tracer apparently works only for big endian machines.
Can anyone offer some tips as to what needs to be changed to make
it work on little enders? I know that the image header needs to
be written differently, but <dumb question> are there other issues
in tracing the image itself? </dumb question>

Thanks,

Dave


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re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

ccrraaiigg
In reply to this post by ccrraaiigg

Hi again--

        I've written enough of the new tracer to write an object memory which
adds 3 and 4, then quits. The snapshot[1] is 1,772 bytes uncompressed.
Without using the simulator or visualization tools, about the most
interesting thing you can do with it is watch it not crash. :)  But I do
think this is a fun proof-of-concept.


-C

[1] http://netjam.org/spoon/smallest.image

--
Craig Latta
improvisational musical informaticist
www.netjam.org
Smalltalkers do: [:it | All with: Class, (And love: it)]



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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

timrowledge

On 16-Jan-06, at 10:26 AM, Craig Latta wrote:

>
> Hi again--
>
> I've written enough of the new tracer to write an object memory  
> which adds 3 and 4, then quits. The snapshot[1] is 1,772 bytes  
> uncompressed. Without using the simulator or visualization tools,  
> about the most interesting thing you can do with it is watch it not  
> crash. :)  But I do think this is a fun proof-of-concept.
Bloody good show! Suggestion for a Neat Demo; extend this a little to
a) print out the answer as the return code or to stdio or whatever.  
There are some prims that should help do that without too much extra  
image code. I think. Maybe. Easy to add a primPrintStringToTerminal  
anyway
b) accept simple equations as startup args
Making a little Smalltalk commandline caculator app. Won't be 1700  
bytes but surely less than 16kb.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Adding manpower to a late software project makes it later.



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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

David T. Lewis
On Mon, Jan 16, 2006 at 10:39:58AM -0800, tim Rowledge wrote:

> On 16-Jan-06, at 10:26 AM, Craig Latta wrote:
> > I've written enough of the new tracer to write an object memory  
> > which adds 3 and 4, then quits. The snapshot[1] is 1,772 bytes  
> > uncompressed. Without using the simulator or visualization tools,  
> > about the most interesting thing you can do with it is watch it not  
> > crash. :)  But I do think this is a fun proof-of-concept.
> Bloody good show! Suggestion for a Neat Demo; extend this a little to
> a) print out the answer as the return code or to stdio or whatever.  
> There are some prims that should help do that without too much extra  
> image code. I think. Maybe. Easy to add a primPrintStringToTerminal  
> anyway
> b) accept simple equations as startup args
> Making a little Smalltalk commandline caculator app. Won't be 1700  
> bytes but surely less than 16kb.

Wouldn't you know it. Someone finally gets the image trimmed
down to a reasonable size, and the first thing he gets is a
bunch of new feature requests ;-)

Craig, this is really good. Your 1772 byte image starts right
up, opens a window, and exits cleanly. Quite remarkable.

Dave


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Re: SystemTracerV2 (was: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer)

timrowledge
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis

On 16-Jan-06, at 7:29 AM, David T. Lewis wrote:


>
> Speaking of SystemTracer, I have a couple of questions:
>
> 1) Dan's 64 bit system tracer is tucked away at:
>   http://squeakvm.org/squeak64/dist3/ChangeSets/System-Tracing.2.cs
>
> Could you merge this into SystemTracerV2 so it does not get lost?
I don't recall ever hearing of this version before, which is a bit  
worrying. However it has nothing in it different to the .1 file  
except the SystemDictionary>wordSize method that has to go into the  
mainstream image anyway. So no changes needed I think.
>
> 2) This system tracer apparently works only for big endian machines.
> Can anyone offer some tips as to what needs to be changed to make
> it work on little enders? I know that the image header needs to
> be written differently, but <dumb question> are there other issues
> in tracing the image itself? </dumb question>
Don't forget that the endianness is converted on startup by the vm.  
Or at least, it supposed to be. Anything that isn't would be a problem.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"#define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb))  - Shakespeare."



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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

timrowledge
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis

On 16-Jan-06, at 11:03 AM, David T. Lewis wrote:

>
> Wouldn't you know it. Someone finally gets the image trimmed
> down to a reasonable size, and the first thing he gets is a
> bunch of new feature requests ;-)
Well of course. And we want a full reference manual and tutorial  
Right Now too.

>
> Craig, this is really good. Your 1772 byte image starts right
> up, opens a window, and exits cleanly. Quite remarkable.
Ooh, it opens a window? Bad VM, naughty VM, go to bed with no supper.  
RISC OS Squeak gets it right and doesn't open a window until there is  
a display to the screen. Smug grin.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Hardware: The parts of a computer system that can be kicked.



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Re: Spoon progress 15 January 2006: new minimum, new system tracer

David T. Lewis
On Mon, Jan 16, 2006 at 11:14:58AM -0800, tim Rowledge wrote:
>
> On 16-Jan-06, at 11:03 AM, David T. Lewis wrote:
> >
> > Craig, this is really good. Your 1772 byte image starts right
> > up, opens a window, and exits cleanly. Quite remarkable.
> Ooh, it opens a window? Bad VM, naughty VM, go to bed with no supper.  
> RISC OS Squeak gets it right and doesn't open a window until there is  
> a display to the screen. Smug grin.

Yer honour, if it may please the court, I submit for the record
a copy of the the change set I posted in 1999 to address this
very issue.

Dave

p.s. Based on a suggestion by a Mr. Tim Rowledge if my memory
serves me well.




LazyDisplayInit.15Nov515pm.cs.gz (2K) Download Attachment