Yesterday we had another Squeak Community Hangout (some of the previous
ones were on April 22, April 8, March 25, March 11, November 2012 and August 30). Though there were fewer people than normal, I thought it would be interesting to mention a bit of what was talking about for those who weren't there. Bob Arning shared a scan of a very nice article from a late 1976 issue of Popular Science which had a picture of him running a program he had written for the Dazzler board on the Altair 8800 computer. This was at a store he owned at the time. He also shared a reimplementation of that same program in Squeak. Edgar De Cleene mentioned his frustration with the lack of something between Pharo's "throw out the old stuff no matter what breaks" scheme and Squeak's extremely conservative position. I suggested that allowing a system to have several separate images working together could be a solution to that, as well as making good use of today's multicore machines. It would also be a way to add security to SqueakNOS. We also talked a bit about Spoon. Hans-Martin Mosner asked if anybody had Squeak code for Elliptic Curve Cryptography. He mentioned that he is part of the Squeak special interest group on cryptography (http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5776), but nobody there has this stuff and he doesn't know any other Smalltalk that has it. That was about it, though since these meetings are supposed to last 24 hours it is possible that more people showed up when I wasn't there. Most of the conversations are about Squeak, of course, but in the past we have also talked about subjects such as DRAM bit geometry and the effect of alpha particles. And at one point yesterday we had a "show off your pet" moment. :-) -- Jecel |
Thanks for this report! I guess I should get a videocam and microphone
and try this out next time. Dave On Tue, Jun 11, 2013 at 05:17:53PM -0300, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Yesterday we had another Squeak Community Hangout (some of the previous > ones were on April 22, April 8, March 25, March 11, November 2012 and > August 30). Though there were fewer people than normal, I thought it > would be interesting to mention a bit of what was talking about for > those who weren't there. > > Bob Arning shared a scan of a very nice article from a late 1976 issue > of Popular Science which had a picture of him running a program he had > written for the Dazzler board on the Altair 8800 computer. This was at a > store he owned at the time. He also shared a reimplementation of that > same program in Squeak. > > Edgar De Cleene mentioned his frustration with the lack of something > between Pharo's "throw out the old stuff no matter what breaks" scheme > and Squeak's extremely conservative position. I suggested that allowing > a system to have several separate images working together could be a > solution to that, as well as making good use of today's multicore > machines. It would also be a way to add security to SqueakNOS. We also > talked a bit about Spoon. > > Hans-Martin Mosner asked if anybody had Squeak code for Elliptic Curve > Cryptography. He mentioned that he is part of the Squeak special > interest group on cryptography (http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5776), but > nobody there has this stuff and he doesn't know any other Smalltalk that > has it. > > That was about it, though since these meetings are supposed to last 24 > hours it is possible that more people showed up when I wasn't there. > Most of the conversations are about Squeak, of course, but in the past > we have also talked about subjects such as DRAM bit geometry and the > effect of alpha particles. And at one point yesterday we had a "show off > your pet" moment. :-) > > -- Jecel > |
In reply to this post by Jecel Assumpcao Jr
I would have been there except for being at STIC. Next time...
Sent from tim's iPad |
In reply to this post by Jecel Assumpcao Jr
On 6/11/13 5:17 PM, "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." <[hidden email]> wrote: > Yesterday we had another Squeak Community Hangout (some of the previous > ones were on April 22, April 8, March 25, March 11, November 2012 and > August 30). Though there were fewer people than normal, I thought it > would be interesting to mention a bit of what was talking about for > those who weren't there. > > Bob Arning shared a scan of a very nice article from a late 1976 issue > of Popular Science which had a picture of him running a program he had > written for the Dazzler board on the Altair 8800 computer. This was at a > store he owned at the time. He also shared a reimplementation of that > same program in Squeak. > > Edgar De Cleene mentioned his frustration with the lack of something > between Pharo's "throw out the old stuff no matter what breaks" scheme > and Squeak's extremely conservative position. I suggested that allowing > a system to have several separate images working together could be a > solution to that, as well as making good use of today's multicore > machines. It would also be a way to add security to SqueakNOS. We also > talked a bit about Spoon. > > Hans-Martin Mosner asked if anybody had Squeak code for Elliptic Curve > Cryptography. He mentioned that he is part of the Squeak special > interest group on cryptography (http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5776), but > nobody there has this stuff and he doesn't know any other Smalltalk that > has it. > > That was about it, though since these meetings are supposed to last 24 > hours it is possible that more people showed up when I wasn't there. > Most of the conversations are about Squeak, of course, but in the past > we have also talked about subjects such as DRAM bit geometry and the > effect of alpha particles. And at one point yesterday we had a "show off > your pet" moment. :-) > > -- Jecel > > Next time wish to talk about why we do not have a SqueakCore and SqueakKernel as separate projects. Also show more pets to far away friends :=) Edgar |
On 12 June 2013 11:37, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > On 6/11/13 5:17 PM, "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." <[hidden email]> wrote: > >> Yesterday we had another Squeak Community Hangout (some of the previous >> ones were on April 22, April 8, March 25, March 11, November 2012 and >> August 30). Though there were fewer people than normal, I thought it >> would be interesting to mention a bit of what was talking about for >> those who weren't there. >> >> Bob Arning shared a scan of a very nice article from a late 1976 issue >> of Popular Science which had a picture of him running a program he had >> written for the Dazzler board on the Altair 8800 computer. This was at a >> store he owned at the time. He also shared a reimplementation of that >> same program in Squeak. >> >> Edgar De Cleene mentioned his frustration with the lack of something >> between Pharo's "throw out the old stuff no matter what breaks" scheme >> and Squeak's extremely conservative position. I suggested that allowing >> a system to have several separate images working together could be a >> solution to that, as well as making good use of today's multicore >> machines. It would also be a way to add security to SqueakNOS. We also >> talked a bit about Spoon. >> >> Hans-Martin Mosner asked if anybody had Squeak code for Elliptic Curve >> Cryptography. He mentioned that he is part of the Squeak special >> interest group on cryptography (http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5776), but >> nobody there has this stuff and he doesn't know any other Smalltalk that >> has it. >> >> That was about it, though since these meetings are supposed to last 24 >> hours it is possible that more people showed up when I wasn't there. >> Most of the conversations are about Squeak, of course, but in the past >> we have also talked about subjects such as DRAM bit geometry and the >> effect of alpha particles. And at one point yesterday we had a "show off >> your pet" moment. :-) >> >> -- Jecel >> >> > Thanks for the excellent report. > Next time wish to talk about why we do not have a SqueakCore and > SqueakKernel as separate projects. > Also show more pets to far away friends :=) Well, we kind've do. I just don't advertise it. The SqueakTrunk build on CI takes a hand-crafted "core" image, updates it and runs all its tests. Noone notices that Nebraska, Universes and XML-Parser are no longer in the Core because a second CI job, ReleaseSqueakTrunk, loads these in. My aim is to progressively rip more and more out of the hand-crafted base image, and keep loading those unloaded packages in the ReleaseSqueakTrunk. I also add the unloaded packages as test suites in the ExternalPackages job. Chris Muller has rightly raised concern that this core+extra image isn't itself tested. I think the answer to this is that (a) we often have no idea whether some package works currently because there are far too few tests, but (b) we can always run the full set of core tests + package tests on (a copy of) the resulting core+extra image. But right now it's extremely hard to unload packages because so many packages have circular dependencies and the like. Most of my work recently has been around cutting the easier parts of the tangle, and raising the profile of some of the less easy parts. frank > Edgar > > > > |
On 6/12/13 7:45 AM, "Frank Shearar" <[hidden email]> wrote: > Well, we kind've do. I just don't advertise it. The SqueakTrunk build > on CI takes a hand-crafted "core" image, updates it and runs all its > tests. Noone notices that Nebraska, Universes and XML-Parser are no > longer in the Core because a second CI job, ReleaseSqueakTrunk, loads > these in. > > My aim is to progressively rip more and more out of the hand-crafted > base image, and keep loading those unloaded packages in the > ReleaseSqueakTrunk. I also add the unloaded packages as test suites in > the ExternalPackages job. > > Chris Muller has rightly raised concern that this core+extra image > isn't itself tested. I think the answer to this is that (a) we often > have no idea whether some package works currently because there are > far too few tests, but (b) we can always run the full set of core > tests + package tests on (a copy of) the resulting core+extra image. > > But right now it's extremely hard to unload packages because so many > packages have circular dependencies and the like. Most of my work > recently has been around cutting the easier parts of the tangle, and > raising the profile of some of the less easy parts. > > frank I know you was doing a excellent job. As Jecel said, I wish some between Pharo super speed for change and Squeak stick in first gear. In 3.10 times with Ralph we start this download and load again. We should going to SqueakCore and test it , all packages downloaded should be user choice of loading again or not. Each release should be more small and more modular. And if we are bold enough go to SqueakKernel and build on Terminal , like Atlantis:~ edgar$ /Applications/Cog\ 2714.app/Contents/MacOS/Squeak -headless /Users/edgar/AtlantisSqueak/imagesZip/Squeak4.4/SqueaKernel4.4-12327.image build.st Edgar |
In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3
Here http://squeakros.org/SqueakRosCore4dot5-12509.zip you could see my own
view of a Core. This image was hand build from previous SqueakRosCore4dot5-12452, could be traced to 4.2 SqueakCore of Andreas The packages into Balloon (nice.21) * Collections (bf.512) Compiler (eem.262) Compression (ul.31) * Etoys () * Exceptions (fbs.44) Files (cmm.119) Graphics (fbs.209) * Kernel (fbs.754) * Monticello (fbs.539) * MonticelloConfigurations (fbs.111) * Morphic (fbs.648) MorphicExtras (tpr.106) MorphicExtrasTests (fbs.1) Multilingual (tpr.159) Network (fbs.140) * PackageInfo-Base (bf.64) SUnit (fbs.94) ShoutCore (cwp.36) SmallLand-ColorTheme (fbs.1) Sound (nice.34) Squeak-Version (ar.4662) * System (fbs.524) ToolBuilder-Kernel (cwp.53) ToolBuilder-Morphic (ul.89) ToolBuilder-SUnit (cwp.17) * Tools (fbs.460) Traits (cwp.292) TrueType (ul.19) TrunkScript (cmm.5) Is a work in progress , sure could be improved. Edgar |
In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3
I'm a pretty big fan of the approach here. I hear Chris's concern. The only solution I see is to break up the tests by what they're testing. Tests associated with stuff we bless into the core should be run against the core, and everything should be run against the fully integrated "release" image (including core tests.) I know that some tests will fall into a grey area around what exactly is under test. Does anyone see any other gotchas to the approach I'm suggesting? I think Frank's doing stellar work here. Folks have been talking about exploding the image for a long time, and he's approaching a really solid solution.
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 3:45 AM, Frank Shearar <[hidden email]> wrote:
Casey Ransberger |
On Wed, Jun 12, 2013 at 07:05:05PM -0700, Casey Ransberger wrote:
> > I think Frank's doing stellar work here. Folks have been talking about > exploding the image for a long time, and he's approaching a really solid > solution. > +1 Frank is doing important work here, and maybe not getting as much feedback as he deserves. I like seeing the steady progress toward a more modular system, knowing that the trunk is staying healthy along the way. It's also exciting to see the new Environments work in trunk. That's another topic that folks have been talking about for a really long time, and it seems now that Squeak is really getting it right. Dave |
> It's also exciting to see the new Environments work in trunk. That's another
> topic that folks have been talking about for a really long time, and it > seems now that Squeak is really getting it right. Is this documented somewhere ? I haven't followed that topic at all... Stef |
On 13 June 2013 16:42, Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> It's also exciting to see the new Environments work in trunk. That's >> another >> topic that folks have been talking about for a really long time, and it >> seems now that Squeak is really getting it right. > > > Is this documented somewhere ? I haven't followed that topic at all... Probably the best non-technical documentation starts here: http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2012-June/164605.html frank > Stef |
In reply to this post by David T. Lewis
+1 Frank is doing a great job :-) Karl On Thu, Jun 13, 2013 at 2:28 PM, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Go Frank! And thx. Ken, from my iPhone
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In reply to this post by Frank Shearar-3
> Probably the best non-technical documentation starts here:
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/pipermail/squeak-dev/2012-June/164605.html thanks ! |
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