Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
 
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2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]>:
> On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote: > > > > On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote: > > > > >I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY > > >gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants > > >("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the > > >left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- > > >printer? > > Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it > > have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint > > 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper > > uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies. > > How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the > mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input > method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't > understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity > as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have > something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands > culture. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods > -- > Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ > Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808 > > |
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In reply to this post by Bert Freudenberg
On Apr 4, 2007, at 4:24 AM, Bert Freudenberg wrote: > > Using the proper unicode chars for assignment and return has the > additional advantage that the WideString code paths will be > exercised even by those people never using accented or otherwise > "foreign" characters. You know who you are ;) Yes, so later when those interesting unicode values are everywhere why MC is exercised more, versus finding gems in widestring string parsing logic when someone casually sticks a interesting unicode value in a method comment and then loading your MC package doesn't quite happen. -- ======================================================================== === John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd. http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com ======================================================================== === |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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In reply to this post by Tapple Gao
On 4/4/07, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Does the OLPC have left arrow and up arrow keys on its keyboard(s)? Otherwise I'm sure you could do wonders to your keyboard with some solvent or sandpaper and a permanent marker! Michael. |
arrows (was: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2)
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
Philippe Marschall wrote:
> 2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer: > > How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the > > mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input > > method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't > > understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity > > as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have > > something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands > > culture. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods None of these are acceptable for something that has to be typed very often. I would suggest alt-arrow or even just shift-arrow as a way of getting all four proper Unicode arrow characters into our code. Having recently played with several old computers (like the TRS-80) on FPGA development boards I found it interesting that they all had arrows in their character sets and a few even made it easy to type them. About the parallel thread of the pointlessness of following old standards, I will repeat the history (there are always new people here who haven't heard it yet) of how we got into this mess in the first place. The preliminary version of ASCII did have arrow characters and so early implementors like DEC and Xerox put them in their keyboards and printers. When the final version came out, the up arrow had been replaced by the carret and the left arrow by the underscore. But too many devices were already in use to update them all so the following years (up to the late 1980s, really) saw an awful mix. When the Smalltalk people decided to abandon their own character sets (and later floating point formats) for industry standards they adopted ASCII as it was used in all Xerox equipment. So it was equivalent to sticking to qwerty when parts of the world were moving to something else. Far from changing an accepted practice, Smalltalk-80's fault was one of doing things as they had been always done. -- Jecel |
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
I'm a bit nervous myself about people from other languages contributing code
that uses underscores all over the place. >From: tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> >Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 >Date: Tue, 3 Apr 2007 21:59:27 -0700 > > >On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote: > >>I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY gone >>and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants >>("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the >>left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- printer? >Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it have to >do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint 2190 >apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper uparrow as >well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies. > >tim >-- >tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim >Useful random insult:- Put a lens in each ear and you've got a telescope. > > > _________________________________________________________________ Get a FREE Web site, company branded e-mail and more from Microsoft Office Live! http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/mcrssaub0050001411mrt/direct/01/ |
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In reply to this post by Philippe Marschall
So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type 2099?
Seems like a lot of work. :) >From: "Philippe Marschall" <[hidden email]> >Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers >list"<[hidden email]> >Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:32:55 +0200 > >2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]>: >>On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote: >> > >> > On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote: >> > >> > >I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY >> > >gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants >> > >("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the >> > >left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- >> > >printer? >> > Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it >> > have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint >> > 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper >> > uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies. >> >>How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the >>mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input >>method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't >>understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity >>as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have >>something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands >>culture. > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods > >>-- >>Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ >>Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808 >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3 |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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On 6-Apr-07, at 7:25 AM, J J wrote: > So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and > type 2099? Seems like a lot of work. :) Let's not be daft about this folks. Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for backcompat. Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human readability and ascii compat. Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey that is already set for you. Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- \? I don't really care at this stage. Profit. tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Fractured Idiom:- L'ETAT, C'EST MOO - I'm boss around here |
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I wasn't trying to be daft. Someone asked how these characters would be
input, Phillip sent a link to how to the long way of doing Unicodes and I was checking if he is serious. I do of course think it is time to expand the character sets, but I'm curious how it would be done. I know there are keyboards where you can set every key how you want it (LCD displays on the keys), but they are a bit pricey. Your explanation is about what I would expect. >From: tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> >Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >list<[hidden email]> >Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 >Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2007 08:44:43 -0700 > > >On 6-Apr-07, at 7:25 AM, J J wrote: > >>So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type >>2099? Seems like a lot of work. :) > >Let's not be daft about this folks. > >Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' for >backcompat. >Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human >readability and ascii compat. >Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. >Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey >that is already set for you. >Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- \? I >don't really care at this stage. >Profit. > > >tim >-- >tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim >Fractured Idiom:- L'ETAT, C'EST MOO - I'm boss around here > > > _________________________________________________________________ Mortgage refinance is Hot. *Terms. Get a 5.375%* fix rate. Check savings https://www2.nextag.com/goto.jsp?product=100000035&url=%2fst.jsp&tm=y&search=mortgage_text_links_88_h2bbb&disc=y&vers=925&s=4056&p=5117 |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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On 6-Apr-07, at 8:49 AM, J J wrote: > I wasn't trying to be daft. No personal observation was meant - which is why I used the 'folks' label. You have to reply to some message or other and you got to be the lucky winner :-) As you say, barring the totally reconfigurable keyboard a hotkey is about what you wold expect. Now, who has some time to implement it? tim -- tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim Oxymorons: Clearly misunderstood |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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In reply to this post by J J-6
Hi J J,
what do you complain about, just Ctrl+Shift is nothing compared to NetBeans, which demands 150% of that from a single hand with Ctrl+Shift+NumPad (NumPad is the "Fn" key on a notebook's keypad) for "advanced" functions ;-) /Klaus On Fri, 06 Apr 2007 16:25:08 +0200, J J wrote: > So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type > 2099? Seems like a lot of work. :) > > >> From: "Philippe Marschall" <[hidden email]> >> Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers >> list<[hidden email]> >> To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers >> list"<[hidden email]> >> Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 >> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:32:55 +0200 >> >> 2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]>: >>> On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote: >>> > >>> > On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote: >>> > >>> > >I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY >>> > >gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants >>> > >("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the >>> > >left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- >>> > >printer? >>> > Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it >>> > have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint >>> > 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper >>> > uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies. >>> >>> How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the >>> mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input >>> method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't >>> understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity >>> as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have >>> something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands >>> culture. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods >> >>> -- >>> Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ >>> Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808 >>> >>> >> > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. > http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3 > > > |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
tim Rowledge wrote:
> Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the ':=' > for backcompat. > Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human > readability and ascii compat. > Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. > Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a hotkey > that is already set for you. > Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt-\? > I don't really care at this stage. > Profit. + 1 Stef |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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In reply to this post by J J-6
Hello,
I found that the wikipedia article (and the section on the input methods) Philippe quoted was pretty badly written. (And biased and missed to mention the other real problems of Unicode.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods The majority of wide character users in the world are using more intelligent input methods that knows about the context and figure out the most likely result as well as the lists other possibilities for the user. And, the user choose it. And, like some input methods in Emacs for latin languages, there is nothing wrong to use sequence to "input" one "character". Anyway, what we could do are: 1) A two-key sequence with $_ and $ (space) gets converted to u2191 *and* a space. A $_ not followed by space will be $_. Or, 2) The frontend of paragraph editor converts two key sequence with $< and $- to u2191. (If you would like to input a string '<-', you would type $<, $ , $- and then remove the space.) Or, 3) $\ could be a beginning of a special sequence. That character, followed by 'leftarrow' would be converted to u2191. I like the first one most, btw. One could add a feature that show the list of possible results in 1) or 2) and let the user choose. -- Yoshiki At Fri, 06 Apr 2007 14:25:08 +0000, J J wrote: > > So instead of typing :=, I will have to hold down Alt, Shift and type 2099? > Seems like a lot of work. :) > > > >From: "Philippe Marschall" <[hidden email]> > >Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers > >list<[hidden email]> > >To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers > >list"<[hidden email]> > >Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 > >Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2007 13:32:55 +0200 > > > >2007/4/4, Matthew Fulmer <[hidden email]>: > >>On Tue, Apr 03, 2007 at 09:59:27PM -0700, tim Rowledge wrote: > >> > > >> > On 3-Apr-07, at 9:54 PM, Joshua Gargus wrote: > >> > > >> > >I'm looking forward to when underscore-leftarrow is REALLY REALLY > >> > >gone and we can start having proper-looking OpenGL constants > >> > >("GL_MODELVIEW_MATRIX" instead of "GLModelviewMatrix"). I like the > >> > >left-arrow too, but can't we please just leave it to the pretty- > >> > >printer? > >> > Personally I *hate* underscore pseudopunctuation but what does it > >> > have to do with using a proper leftarrow? We have unicode. Codepoint > >> > 2190 apparently. Come to that we have codepoint 2191 for a proper > >> > uparrow as well. Time we used them. := is for Pascal weenies. > >> > >>How could anyone type such a character? would we modify the > >>mass-produced keyboard, or create some partially obscure input > >>method? Of course, it would be easy with a pen. I don't > >>understand how Unicode will be anything other than a curiosity > >>as long as the keyboard stays around. Of course, that may have > >>something to do with living in the US, where nobody understands > >>culture. > > > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicode#Input_methods > > > >>-- > >>Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/ > >>Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808 > >> > >> > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Need a break? Find your escape route with Live Search Maps. > http://maps.live.com/?icid=hmtag3 > > |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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Hello,
I wrote: > 1) A two-key sequence with $_ and $ (space) gets converted to u2191 > *and* a space. A $_ not followed by space will be $_. Or, For this one (and other one), what would happen would be: When the user types $_, it gets shown at the cursor point in the editor, but is shown in red, or with a box (or with underline... but it won't work in this particular character). This visual feedback reminds the user that it is not "settled" yet. Then, when the user enters the next character, what the underscore character should be is decided based on whether it is a space or not, and the two characters are "settled" and inserted into the editor... -- Yoshiki |
Unicode Arrows in Shout ( was Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2)
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Hi,
I have hacked a version of Shout together that supports Unicode arrows. You can get the mcz from here... http://www.zen61439.zen.co.uk/ShoutUnicodeArrows/ This folder contains... the hacked Shout mcz, some screenshots - showing how it looks with FreeSans.ttf installed as TTCFontSet and how it looks with Arial using FreeType a suitable unicode ttf font (FreeSans.ttf) an install script, ShoutUnicodeArrows.st , that :- installs the mcz, installs FreeSans as a TextStyle, and sets it as the code font, Sets the correct Shout preferences To install, copy the folder contents to your default directory, and filein in the .st file. then open a normal Browser. (I used a Squeak-dev-95-2 image during development). The key sequences / hotkeys are : unicode Leftwards Arrow is any one of :- cmd-shift-<cursorLeft> <- \<cursorLeft> _<space> unicode Upwards Arrow is any one of :- cmd-shift-<cursorUp> ^<space> The only ones I personally like are cmd-shift-<cursorLeft> & cmd-shift-<cursorUp> Cheers, Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yoshiki Ohshima" <[hidden email]> To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list" <[hidden email]> Sent: Saturday, April 07, 2007 7:11 AM Subject: Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2 > Hello, > > I wrote: > > 1) A two-key sequence with $_ and $ (space) gets converted to u2191 > > *and* a space. A $_ not followed by space will be $_. Or, > > For this one (and other one), what would happen would be: > > When the user types $_, it gets shown at the cursor point in the > editor, but is shown in red, or with a box (or with underline... but > it won't work in this particular character). This visual feedback > reminds the user that it is not "settled" yet. Then, when the user > enters the next character, what the underscore character should be is > decided based on whether it is a space or not, and the two characters > are "settled" and inserted into the editor... > > -- Yoshiki > > |
Re: Unicode Arrows in Shout ( was Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2)
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Oops, forgot to mention a couple of other hotkeys...
> unicode Leftwards Arrow is any one of :- > > cmd-shift-<cursorLeft> > <- > \<cursorLeft> > _<space> and also cmd-<space> > > unicode Upwards Arrow is any one of :- > > cmd-shift-<cursorUp> > ^<space> and also cmd-/ |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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In reply to this post by timrowledge
tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> writes:
> Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the > ':=' for backcompat. > Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human > readability and ascii compat. > Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. > Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a > hotkey that is already set for you. > Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps alt- > \? I don't really care at this stage. > Profit. This approach will work. However, we could instead not do all that, and use pure ASCII. ASCII is simple, sufficient, and breathtakingly good at interop. Lex |
Re: Unicode Arrows in Shout ( was Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2)
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In reply to this post by Andrew Tween
> I have hacked a version of Shout together that supports Unicode arrows.
> You can get the mcz from here... This doesn't quite work for me: I get an error that TextMorphForShoutEditor does not understand #caret. Also, is it possible to suppress the rendering of tab characters in the FreeSans font? Regards, Martin |
Re: Unicode Arrows in Shout ( was Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2)
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Hi,
> This doesn't quite work for me: I get an error that > TextMorphForShoutEditor does not understand #caret. ok. the caret method is added by eCompletion. Try in a Squeak-dev-95-2 image, or load eCompletion. > > Also, is it possible to suppress the rendering of tab characters > in the FreeSans font? I don't know the cause of the problem, or the solution. It may be a general problem with TTCFontSet's, WideString's , or who knows what. I don't think it is the FreeSans font; I get the same problem with DejaVuSans. > > Regards, > Martin > > |
Re: Unicode Arrows in Shout ( was Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2)
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On Apr 7, 2007, at 16:22 , Andrew Tween wrote: >> Also, is it possible to suppress the rendering of tab characters >> in the FreeSans font? > > I don't know the cause of the problem, or the solution. > It may be a general problem with TTCFontSet's, WideString's , or > who knows what. > I don't think it is the FreeSans font; I get the same problem with > DejaVuSans. The freetype importer needs to map those characters to a blank glyph. - Bert - |
Re: Squeak-dev/Squeak-web image v95-2
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In reply to this post by Lex Spoon-3
On Apr 7, 2007, at 15:45 , Lex Spoon wrote: > tim Rowledge <[hidden email]> writes: >> Make the parser accept the unicode leftarrow as assign; leave the >> ':=' for backcompat. >> Make fileout to text convert leftaror to := for plausible human >> readability and ascii compat. >> Make filein convert := to leftarrow for aesthetic compat. >> Make a hotkey to insert leftarrow. Remember, the $= key is just a >> hotkey that is already set for you. >> Let people chose a suitable assign hotkey. Perhaps cmd-=? Perhaps >> alt- >> \? I don't really care at this stage. >> Profit. > > > This approach will work. However, we could instead not do all that, > and use pure ASCII. ASCII is simple, sufficient, and breathtakingly > good at interop. The American SCII also breathtakingly sucks at expressiveness, even for many Americans. If you find its expressiveness sufficient, good for you. In most parts of the world it is not. Typewriters with their limited character set fortunately were only a small interlude in the history of typography. I'm glad in Smalltalk we at least use proportional fonts. Arbitrary punctuation like := really disturbs in reading IMHO. I actually hope we're moving towards higher typographical standards (we at least should be able to do what Fortress does for example) and not falling back into the stone age of computing. - Bert - |
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