Squeak for "profesional" games

Hi, i wanna start a project with a friend.

This project will be a mmorpg (Musive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying game) and we have some questions.

WE thought do it with php and mysql, but this system has limitations (3D for example).

Now, i'm thinking in squeak (i'm learning it, and thinking in her object reuse) and, here are my questions and the introduction for the questions.

Imagine, The game will be like a Town (for example). But each neighbor is a real guy (100 guys connected at the same time for example) with which you can chat, interact, take a walk, pilot an airplane etc...

Now the questions

Squeak
- Squeak has a good continous develop? New features, velocity, etc.....
-Squeak is focused only for educational app's? or for normal/profesional use?

Game
- Is factible do a game with this characteristics in squeak?

Graphics
- How works squeak with 3D graphics?

- Exists any engine like crystalspace3D or Ogre for games? (load MD2 files, terrain, ODE etc..)

- Is possible do a 3Dgame in squeak?

Network
- This game will be only online. Is factible the use of Seaside for do the game for web?

- Will be Better a "squeak server"? Will be better use squeak plugin for browsers?

- With squeak and seaside you can have sessions etc.. like PHP?

The game will be for a friends and me, but, if the result is good, we will think sell it.

In other thinks, we are thinking develop in amateur level, but with profesional level if is possible.

Well, this is all at the moment, thanks a lot, and sorry for this maill too large and for my bad english-google-language-tools.

Cheers.

On Mon, 6 Mar 2006 11:39:29 +0100, "Lord ZealoN" <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> - Is possible do a 3Dgame in squeak?

Check out Croquet...

http://www.opencroquet.org

I think that will answer all your questions. And yes, it is implemented in
Squeak.

Later,
Jon
--------------------------------------------------------------
   Jon Hylands      [hidden email]      http://www.huv.com/jon

  Project: Micro Seeker (Micro Autonomous Underwater Vehicle)
           http://www.huv.com

Hi, i wanna start a project with a friend.

This project will be a mmorpg (Musive Multiplayer Online Roleplaying game)
and we have some questions.

WE thought do it with php and mysql, but this system has limitations (3D for
example).

Now, i'm thinking in squeak (i'm learning it, and thinking in her object
reuse) and, here are my questions and the introduction for the questions.

Imagine, The game will be like a Town (for example). But each neighbor is a
real guy (100 guys connected at the same time for example) with which you
can chat, interact, take a walk, pilot an airplane etc...

Now the questions

Squeak
- Squeak has a good continous develop? New features, velocity, etc.....
-Squeak is focused only for educational app's? or for normal/profesional
use?

Game
- Is factible do a game with this characteristics in squeak?

Graphics
- How works squeak with 3D graphics?

- Exists any engine like crystalspace3D or Ogre for games? (load MD2 files,
terrain, ODE etc..)

- Is possible do a 3Dgame in squeak?

Network
- This game will be only online. Is factible the use of Seaside for do the
game for web?

- Will be Better a "squeak server"? Will be better use squeak plugin for
browsers?

- With squeak and seaside you can have sessions etc.. like PHP?

The game will be for a friends and me, but, if the result is good, we will
think sell it.

In other thinks, we are thinking develop in amateur level, but with
profesional level if is possible.

Well, this is all at the moment, thanks a lot, and sorry for this maill too
large and for my bad english-google-language-tools.

Cheers.

Per your network, 3D engine, server, ODE, and (open source) license questions ..
As Jon Said:

"Check out Croquet...

http://www.opencroquet.org

I think that will answer all your questions. And yes, it is implemented in
Squeak."

Here is list server info for the project:
http://croquetproject.org/Community/listserver.html

Cheers,
Darius

Per your network, 3D engine, server, ODE, and (open source) license questions ..
As Jon Said:

"Check out Croquet...

http://www.opencroquet.org

I think that will answer all your questions. And yes, it is implemented in

Squeak."

Here is list server info for the project:
http://croquetproject.org/Community/listserver.html

Cheers,
Darius

It's very much alive. I literally just prepared another Hedgehog release
candidate image five minutes ago.

Cheers,
   - Andreas

Lord ZealoN wrote:

Ok, then i will see the listsserver.

Then, croquet, is a Virtual SO, and a platform too? I'm confused about this.

How can croquet aid me in my project? The users don't may change the "world"

How implement user and password?

Croquet is in an early very stage beta version...Croquet will help me in my purposes?

Hi!

As you obviously misunderstood the references on Croquet. I will answer
your questions.
I hope you see the similarity between an MMORPG and a collaborative SW.

>     Now the questions
>
>     Squeak
>     - Squeak has a good continous develop? New features, velocity,
>     etc.....
>
Definitely YES.

>     -Squeak is focused only for educational app's? or for
>     normal/profesional
>     use?
>
BOTH.

>     Game
>     - Is factible do a game with this characteristics in squeak?
>
YES.

>     Graphics
>     - How works squeak with 3D graphics?
>
Try Croquet and you will see.

>     - Exists any engine like crystalspace3D or Ogre for games? (load
>     MD2 files,
>     terrain, ODE etc..)
>
ODE exists. Maybe other engines too.

>     - Is possible do a 3Dgame in squeak?
>
What do you think? ;-)

>     Network
>     - This game will be only online. Is factible the use of Seaside
>     for do the
>     game for web?
>
Definitely YES.

>     - Will be Better a "squeak server"? Will be better use squeak
>     plugin for
>     browsers?
>
I don't know, but I think implementing an MMORPG in a web based
environment with
3D graphics is a bit strange. Do you want it to be accessible from a web
browser?

Elod

Well, good luck. But if you don't want 400MB of download, how do you think
to send the bunch a pictures from the 3D engine to the users? That will
be 1000
times more traffic.

Elod

Lord ZealoN wrote:

When is the official release of this release :)?

Stef

On 8 mars 06, at 10:09, Andreas Raab wrote:

Hi Andreas,

> > But, Croquet not is a collaborative soft?
> > The last new in the croquet
> > web is in 07/05/2005.
> It's very much alive. I literally just prepared another
> Hedgehog release candidate image five minutes ago.

Can you give me some links to works and contributions
 of other people to feel the "We" and not the "I" effect
 of any collaborative effort?

Or it is a collaborative, open, but private project?
 (guided by a private plan)

best,
Ale.

p.d.: I hope my words are not offensive, my question
 is related with the provability to grow a group devoted
 to 3D in the context of current Smalltalk user groups.



----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Raab" <[hidden email]>
To: "The general-purpose Squeak developers list"
<[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 6:09 AM
Subject: Re: Squeak for "profesional" games

questions ..
> >     As Jon Said:
> >
> >     "Check out Croquet...
> >
> >     http://www.opencroquet.org <http://www.opencroquet.org/>
> >
> >     I think that will answer all your questions. And yes, it is
implemented in

Wow, so many different kinds of questions! From my perspective,  
heading a Croquet group at U.Wisconsin:

* The current and the next versions of Croquet will be aimed at  
developers. This is the bleeding edge, and that cuts both ways: some  
APIs (and all of the doc) is evolving, but it lets you create stuff  
that is supportable and scalable in ways that, to my knowledge,  
simply cannot be done otherwise. Only you can decide whether this is  
what you need and want.

* So far, the core software and existing applications have been  
developed by a rather small, close group. However, there are, maybe,  
a few dozen institutions, with worldwide distribution, who are  
committed to and counting on this project.  These institutions and  
individuals have varying interests and abilities, and are forming a  
consortium to coordinate further work.

* The essence of Croquet is to use the processing power available on  
individual machines to run individual but identical simulations.  The  
only thing that goes across the wire are initial state when joining  
and external (e.g., user) inputs. The other extreme is to run  
everything on a server, including rendering, and send updated images  
at 30 odd frames per second to each user. You'll have to make your  
own engineering decisions about which approach (or combination) is  
appropriate for what you want to do.  Download size may enter it, but  
of course, you need to compare the right things. 100s of MB are a one-
time current developer's download. That has nothing to do with what  
your application may choose to deploy. And then, of course, there is  
the usual misunderstandings about installation and size of  
"executables" and "libraries" and images and such. There is a wealth  
of discussion on this subject in any number of newsgroups. Please  
consult those and make your own informed opinion before repeating all  
that stuff here.

* Croquet is built on Squeak, and inherits Squeak's flexibility and  
breadth. You can think of it as a platform with several delivery  
options, including browser plugins. Similarly for various kinds of  
"access control." (A phrase that does not do the issue justice, but  
which I use here to be recognized by the broadest group of folks.)  
Many of these options, have only just begun to be explored.

* There is a lot of extra capability and flexibility of Croquet as  
compared with narrow point-solutions. (Someone mentioned not needing  
to modify the world as it is being played.) One might think that this  
makes development harder if you feel you don't need this stuff. In my  
opinion, this capability and flexibility actually makes development  
easier -- not just in the obvious case of adding additional  
capability later, but even in the initial development.  But you have  
to weigh this against maturity and the basic math of the problem  
you're trying to solve.

* In addition to the web site, there is a lot of further discussion  
on the blogs that the site points you to. (http://croquetproject.org/ 
links.html) And don't be mislead by dates. Every one of the folks  
listed is actively working stuff (sometimes at the expense of  
writing), except I think Orion, who is on "sabbatical" in Antarctica!


Howard Stearns
Croquet Lead Developer, http://croquetproject.org
DoIT Academic Technology, http://www.wisc.edu/academictech
University of Wisconsin-Madison, 1301 University Avenue, Madison, WI  
53715
  +1-608-262-3724

Hi,
>
> * So far, the core software and existing applications have been  
> developed by a rather small, close group. However, there are,  
> maybe, a few dozen institutions, with worldwide distribution, who  
> are committed to and counting on this project.  These institutions  
> and individuals have varying interests and abilities, and are  
> forming a consortium to coordinate further work.

Are there any news , or even better, what are the current activities  
related to this consortium ?

Regards

Hans

Hans N Beck said:
Hans,

   About 30 people representing about 18 interested institutions met at
the C5 conference in Berkeley, CA, in January, to discuss the formation
of a Croquet Consortium, what its form, goals, structure, etc. would
be. Working groups formed at that meeting are still crafting the
organizational details, which will provide avenues for membership and
involvement by academic institutions, corporate entities, and
individuals. Though certainly not its only raison d'etre, the Croquet
Consortium is envisioned to have a heavy focus on distributed
educational uses of Croquet.

    I don't want to preempt the work of the charter committees by saying
too much, except to encourage the community to share input and ideas
about what activities folks would like to see undertaken by the
consortium via discussion on the lists.  [hidden email] is
probably the best list for this, rather than general Squeak lists.

    Stay tuned!

       Best Regards,

         Ed Boyce


> Regards
>
> Hans
>


-----------------------------------------------------
Ed Boyce
Education and Outreach Writer/Editor
Coordinator, Visualize Education Virtual Institute
Engaging People in CyberInfrastructure (EPIC) Program
http://www.eotepic.org

Boston University Center for Computational Science
3 Cummington Street, 5th Floor
Boston, Massachusetts  02215

413-245-3997
[hidden email]
------------------------------------------------------

Well, and, where are the documentation about croquet classes for use in my project? I find only a "small" programming guide".

Responsible team members are working on the paperwork for forming the non-profit. Not much to do until a charter is formed for the interested parties to vote on.

Cheers,
Darius

Hi,

If I may suggest, if you are a beginner in squeak, it would be quite
difficult to enter and develop into the croquet world : best is to
start with simple things right now. As far as I understand, Croquet is
much more a beta 3D collaborative platform (and beta means that the
network abilities for a wide and extensive use is not yet stable) than
somethings which would be accessible by a classical browser : Croquet
*is* the 3D browser and the 3D server...

Maybe start with simple things, like building a little kernel of your
mmorpg and thinking this little kernel as something you can plug in
different rendering technology : Text, 2D, 3D and so one. We have
already started a thing like that, in this spirit, here :
http://www.squeaksource.com/RPGSqueak/

All this material is freely available, so don't hesitate to use it at
your own convenience. Here is a roadmap which could be interesting for
us (I'm interested by this project too).

0. Review of all available RPG smalltalk code : already done, check
   this tarball here : http://www.info.unicaen.fr/~saidani/rpgsqueak

1. Build a small, simple and beautiful kernel designed carefully for
   extensibility

1. Playing with seaside
1. Playing with Ballon3D (the 3D framework available in squeak)

(all 1 could be done in //)

2. Figure out how to add a text-based plugin for our kernel and play
   with it.

(2 must show that with a few objects in our world, we are able to play
right now : it's important to be able to test and play quickly or else
you are like a man trying to build directly a sophisticated airplane
without checking that it could actually fly in its earlier and basic
version).

3. Understanding squeak browser plugin and play through a browser and
   a squeak plugin to our simple game. (check www.squeakland.org)

4a Figure out how to add a seaside-based plugin for our kernel and
   test it.

4b Figure out how to add a Ballon3D-based plugin for our kernel and
test it.

5. Combine 4a with 4b : propose into the web browser 4b as a squeak
   browser plugin inside the seaside application. (and test it ;-)

6. Enjoy ;-)

7. See how you can propose a Croquet plugin for your kernel in order
   to play through a wonderful 3D collaborative platform.

You will probably learn a lot about squeak and programming through
 this journey. And don't stick to this roadmap, this is only a
 proposal !  Make your own roadmap according to these fundamental
 questions : is it simple ? is it elegant ? is it working ? is it
 simply extendable ? is the kernel - the essence - small ? ...

Enjoy your journey ;-)

Friendly,
Samir

"Lord ZealoN" <[hidden email]> writes:

> Well, and, where are the documentation about croquet classes for use in my
> project? I find only a "small" programming guide".
>
>