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openslateproj

Squeak on tablets

As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy. Typically using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.

I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.

I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.

--
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/

openslateproj

Re: Squeak on tablets

A couple more focused questions.

1. How does the CogDroid vm compare with the Windows and OS X versions? Will it run the same image?

2. How well does the Samsung Galaxy S-pen work in place of a three button mouse?

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:42 AM, OpenSlate ChalkDust <[hidden email]> wrote:

As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy. Typically using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.

I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.

I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.

--
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/

--
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/

Chris Muller-3

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by openslateproj

Convertible laptops like the Lenovo X230t run standard PC operating
systems where the touch screen operates the mouse. I have begun to
appreciate touch screen input this way, but miss the legacy mouse
ability to simply "point" at something. Nonetheless, it has been
novel to use the included stylus with Squeak's Paint morph to draw,
and the finger touch to activate buttons, etc.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:42 PM, OpenSlate ChalkDust
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to
> get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation
> has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy. Typically
> using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.
>
> I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with
> squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button
> mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is
> keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.
>
> I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.
>
> --
> Gary Dunn
> Open Slate Project
> http://openslate.org/
>
>
>

Casey Ransberger-2

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by openslateproj

Hi Gary.

So I think the hardest part will really be agreeing on what gestures mean what.

I've run Squeak, Cuis, and Pharo over iOS (thanks mostly to John McIntosh and Bert Freudenberg,) and I'd recommend avoiding that platform for what I'm guessing your purposes might be. App Store cuts us off at the knees for everything except "end-user" applications, which basically shoves anyone wanting to write a program and share it with other people (young or old) into the $99:year iOS developer program; not a suitable arrangement for either revolutionary thinking or early education.

Android, whichever version: I've heard folks have made some progress here, but maneuvering around all of the Java infrastructure isn't my bag, (rather just compile and run C code) so I haven't even tried it.

I'm looking forward to this whole Ubuntu Mobile thing. At least that's just Unix at some (accessable) level in a mobile device.

Here's what I'd do right now if I had an income: Raspberry Pi model-B rigged up (somehow!) to a Pixel Qi dual mode transflective display. These aren't too expensive, can do the natural light ebook thing as well as the backlit usual thing. The prototyping kit is around $300 last I checked, but it gets a loooooooooot cheaper when you buy in bulk (these are basically XO screens.)

So stick one of those underneath a capacitive touch screen kit. Now autocad yourself a nice enclosure, and have Shapeways 3D print it. Put the bits together, USB wifi module optional!

Make your own interrim DynaBook, except Shapeways has way better materials than cardboard! Sounds involved, I know, but if we went to KickStarter with it... maybe someone would want an unencumbered BSD/Squeak-based tablet, eh? (Cough, half the people here.)

CC Etoys dev just because.

On Jun 17, 2013, at 2:42 PM, OpenSlate ChalkDust <[hidden email]> wrote:

As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy. Typically using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.

I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.

I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.

--
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/

JohnReed Maffeo

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by openslateproj

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: OpenSlate ChalkDust
> Sent: 06/17/13 07:34 PM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Squeak on tablets
>
> A couple more focused questions.
>
> 1. How does the CogDroid vm compare with the Windows and OS X versions?
> Will it run the same image?

I am running CogDroid on an inexpensive Next Book 7 inch tablet. I can run current versions of Squeak, Pharo, and Cuis. For development, I can run the image from the tablet in USB mode if I want, or I can download images from my computer. The only actual development work I have done is to make minor modifications to the SameGame program. It runs well and looks like a tablet game.

DR Geo is a program that has been ported to run on Android using CogDroid, but I don't know any more than that.

I am pretty sure that gestures have not been implemented.

>
> 2. How well does the Samsung Galaxy S-pen work in place of a three button
> mouse?
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:42 AM, OpenSlate ChalkDust <
> [hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to
> > get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation
> > has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy.
> > Typically using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.
> >
> > I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with
> > squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button
> > mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is
> > keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.
> >
> > I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.
> >
> > --
> > Gary Dunn
> > Open Slate Project
> > http://openslate.org/
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Gary Dun
> Open Slate Project
> http://openslate.org/

jrm

openslateproj

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3

I bought a Fujitsi T-1010 for this reason a few years back. Never got the digitizer to work in FreeBSD, did work in Ubuntu but only as a mouse. Even in Windows Squeak was awkward. Been awhile, but as I recall I could emulate a two button mouse using a tap and long hold, but never could get a third button to work. The T-1010 has five buttons along the bezel that I though I could program to use in conjunction with pen taps to create button-2 and button-3 events, but they seemed to work alone, making bezel button 1 + tap = mouse button-2 impossible.

Now that I've written this I am going to revisit that issue, just for my own satisfaction.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 8:17 PM, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:

Convertible laptops like the Lenovo X230t run standard PC operating
systems where the touch screen operates the mouse. I have begun to
appreciate touch screen input this way, but miss the legacy mouse
ability to simply "point" at something. Nonetheless, it has been
novel to use the included stylus with Squeak's Paint morph to draw,
and the finger touch to activate buttons, etc.

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 2:42 PM, OpenSlate ChalkDust
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to
> get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation
> has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy. Typically
> using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.
>
> I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with
> squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button
> mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is
> keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.
>
> I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.
>
> --
> Gary Dunn
> Open Slate Project
> http://openslate.org/
>
>
>

--
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/

openslateproj

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by Casey Ransberger-2

On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 10:35 PM, Casey Ransberger <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Gary.

So I think the hardest part will really be agreeing on what gestures mean what.

I've run Squeak, Cuis, and Pharo over iOS (thanks mostly to John McIntosh and Bert Freudenberg,) and I'd recommend avoiding that platform for what I'm guessing your purposes might be. App Store cuts us off at the knees for everything except "end-user" applications, which basically shoves anyone wanting to write a program and share it with other people (young or old) into the $99:year iOS developer program; not a suitable arrangement for either revolutionary thinking or early education.

Android, whichever version: I've heard folks have made some progress here, but maneuvering around all of the Java infrastructure isn't my bag, (rather just compile and run C code) so I haven't even tried it.

I'm looking forward to this whole Ubuntu Mobile thing. At least that's just Unix at some (accessable) level in a mobile device.

Here's what I'd do right now if I had an income: Raspberry Pi model-B rigged up (somehow!) to a Pixel Qi dual mode transflective display. These aren't too expensive, can do the natural light ebook thing as well as the backlit usual thing. The prototyping kit is around $300 last I checked, but it gets a loooooooooot cheaper when you buy in bulk (these are basically XO screens.)

I like your attitude and I agree this *should* be possible. So far a solution has remained just beyond my horizon.

I saw where there is now a standard for connecting to LCD displays without going through RGB or HDMI. When I have some time I'll look that up.

So stick one of those underneath a capacitive touch screen kit.

This has been a major sticking point for me. The only digitizers I have found come from Taiwan or China, are marketed to engineers and sold in bulk, aimed at manufacturers. For my skill level I need "connect to USB system and look for this HID mouse device." A hobbyist kit.

Anybody have any suggestions?

Now autocad yourself a nice enclosure, and have Shapeways 3D print it. Put the bits together, USB wifi module optional!

Interesting how 3D printing has changed the custom fabrication scene. Ten years ago I saw self made student slates as a new kind of industrial arts class. Where I took wood shop and metal shop, these kids would create slate enclosures. I guess 3D printing would move the same concept forward one generation and be a whole lot safer.

Make your own interrim DynaBook, except Shapeways has way better materials than cardboard! Sounds involved, I know, but if we went to KickStarter with it... maybe someone would want an unencumbered BSD/Squeak-based tablet, eh? (Cough, half the people here.)

CC Etoys dev just because.

:D

On Jun 17, 2013, at 2:42 PM, OpenSlate ChalkDust <[hidden email]> wrote:

As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy. Typically using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.

I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.

I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.

--
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/

--
Gary Dunn
Open Slate Project
http://openslate.org/

Casey Ransberger-2

Re: Squeak on tablets

Below...

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 1:54 PM, OpenSlate ChalkDust <[hidden email]> wrote:

Now autocad yourself a nice enclosure, and have Shapeways 3D print it. Put the bits together, USB wifi module optional!

Interesting how 3D printing has changed the custom fabrication scene. Ten years ago I saw self made student slates as a new kind of industrial arts class. Where I took wood shop and metal shop, these kids would create slate enclosures. I guess 3D printing would move the same concept forward one generation and be a whole lot safer.

That's still a great idea. Wood shop and metal shop are still great, and most prototypes are made from things lying around (unless you have your own 3D printer, turnaround time on getting a mold shipped back isn't stellar.) You could actually combine the approaches if you had access to a 3D scanner.

I like the way you think! Anyway I want Squeak, Cuis, Scratch, Etoys, and probably MuO running on a tablet at some point, and implementing gestures and such has been on my mind for awhile. I don't currently have a tablet, otherwise I'd probably be hacking on this stuff. (Unless you count the iPhone, and I don't, because anything starting with 'i' and not ending in 'Mac' is not a usefully programmable computer.)

--
Casey Ransberger

Hannes Hirzel

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by JohnReed Maffeo

Hello John,

On 6/18/13, JohnReed Maffeo <[hidden email]> wrote:
....
>> 1. How does the CogDroid vm compare with the Windows and OS X versions?
>> Will it run the same image?
>
> I am running CogDroid on an inexpensive Next Book 7 inch tablet.

Where did you get the CogDroid from? URL?

I can run
> current versions of Squeak, Pharo, and Cuis. For development, I can run the
> image from the tablet in USB mode if I want, or I can download images from
> my computer.

Great setup.

The only actual development work I have done is to make minor
> modifications to the SameGame program. It runs well and looks like a tablet
> game.

Is this available somewhere? URL?

> DR Geo is a program that has been ported to run on Android using CogDroid,
> but I don't know any more than that.
>
> I am pretty sure that gestures have not been implemented.
>

--Hannes

JohnReed Maffeo

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by openslateproj

> ----- Original Message -----
> From: H. Hirzel
> Sent: 06/19/13 02:33 AM
> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
> Subject: Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Squeak on tablets
>
> Hello John,
>
> On 6/18/13, JohnReed Maffeo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> ....
> >> 1. How does the CogDroid vm compare with the Windows and OS X versions?
> >> Will it run the same image?
> >
> > I am running CogDroid on an inexpensive Next Book 7 inch tablet.
>
> Where did you get the CogDroid from? URL?

This is a good place to start. PharoDroid is currently not working, but CogDroid is (for me anyway).
https://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/wiki/JenkinsBuilds

>
> I can run
> > current versions of Squeak, Pharo, and Cuis. For development, I can run the
> > image from the tablet in USB mode if I want, or I can download images from
> > my computer.
>
> Great setup.
>
> The only actual development work I have done is to make minor
> > modifications to the SameGame program. It runs well and looks like a tablet
> > game.
>
> Is this available somewhere? URL?

My version is not published. All I did was resize some of the Morphs in the game to make them
more finger friendly and resize the game to fill the screen. I am just poking around at this point.

I am not sure where I got the version I am working with, but there is a Games Package on Squeak Map
http://map.squeak.org/package/643f4620-0fe6-493b-a129-7fd1224e0fe4, and I think it was
included in 3.x era images.

Also a search turned up this - http://www.visoracle.com/download/squeak/samegame.html

>
>
> > DR Geo is a program that has been ported to run on Android using CogDroid,
> > but I don't know any more than that.
> >
> > I am pretty sure that gestures have not been implemented.
> >
>
>
> --Hannes

Chris Muller-3

Re: Squeak on tablets

In reply to this post by JohnReed Maffeo

I didn't know about CogDroid. Can it be installed from the Android
app-store or is it a manual install? Hopefully the store but, either
way, it's at least neat to know Squeak images can run on yet another
device. How is Dr. Geo installed? I'd have to borrow my wife's
tablet to find out, I'm still 100% in the PC world.

I'm curious how the gestures map. Could you elaborate?

- left-click?
- middle click?
- right click?
- position the Hand without clicking (this may not be possible on a
tablet interface)?

On Tue, Jun 18, 2013 at 11:07 AM, JohnReed Maffeo
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: OpenSlate ChalkDust
>> Sent: 06/17/13 07:34 PM
>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list
>> Subject: [squeak-dev] Re: Squeak on tablets
>>
>> A couple more focused questions.
>>
>> 1. How does the CogDroid vm compare with the Windows and OS X versions?
>> Will it run the same image?
>
> I am running CogDroid on an inexpensive Next Book 7 inch tablet. I can run current versions of Squeak, Pharo, and Cuis. For development, I can run the image from the tablet in USB mode if I want, or I can download images from my computer. The only actual development work I have done is to make minor modifications to the SameGame program. It runs well and looks like a tablet game.
>
> DR Geo is a program that has been ported to run on Android using CogDroid, but I don't know any more than that.
>
> I am pretty sure that gestures have not been implemented.
>
>>
>> 2. How well does the Samsung Galaxy S-pen work in place of a three button
>> mouse?
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 17, 2013 at 11:42 AM, OpenSlate ChalkDust <
>> [hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> > As some of you know I spent quite a bit of time getting nowhere trying to
>> > get Squeak running on top of FreeBSD in a tablet form factor.The situation
>> > has changed considerably, in that the world has gone tablet crazy.
>> > Typically using fingers rather than a mouse or stylus.
>> >
>> > I would appreciate any recommendations on what tablets work well with
>> > squeak, and what to avoid. What has been done to adapt the three-button
>> > mouse squeak expects to have to a fingertip input? Then of course there is
>> > keyboard input in general, including keyboard shortcuts.
>> >
>> > I'd be happy to collect the results in a table on Google Drive.
>> >
>> > --
>> > Gary Dunn
>> > Open Slate Project
>> > http://openslate.org/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Gary Dun
>> Open Slate Project
>> http://openslate.org/
>
>
> jrm
>

dcorking

Re: Squeak on tablets

Chris Muller wrote:
> How is Dr. Geo installed?

>From the app stores by the look of this:

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeo.android
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeocv.android

(In the Android world, the app store sends your phone an zip file of
Java assets known as an APK file, and that is as much as I know. I too
am still in the PC world. I assume that Hilaire includes the CogDroid
VM in the bundle.)

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dr.-geometry/id559858173?l=fr&ls=1&mt=8

DrGeo is amazing on PCs, so I would expect a lot from the tablet versions.

Sorry I am not much more help. David.

Herbert König

Re: Squeak on tablets

Hi,
I found the cogDroid here:
http://code.google.com/p/squeakvm-tablet/wiki/TestDrive

There you'll find the links for the downloads and more important some
hints what to do.

Cheers

Herbert
Am 23.06.2013 16:41, schrieb David Corking:

> Chris Muller wrote:
>> How is Dr. Geo installed?
> >From the app stores by the look of this:
>
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeo.android
> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=eu.drgeocv.android
>
> (In the Android world, the app store sends your phone an zip file of
> Java assets known as an APK file, and that is as much as I know. I too
> am still in the PC world. I assume that Hilaire includes the CogDroid
> VM in the bundle.)
>
> https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/dr.-geometry/id559858173?l=fr&ls=1&mt=8
>
> DrGeo is amazing on PCs, so I would expect a lot from the tablet versions.
>
> Sorry I am not much more help. David.
>