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SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

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Hilaire Fernandes-5

SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

(Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
community compatible)

A few days ago Bruno as announced some progress in SqueakGTK work. Last
year there were this couple of release with wxSqueak, since then it
seems to be quiet.

Nevertheless, should we not give a chance to these projects and
carefully examine how we could take one of them to be mainstream in
Squeak.org.

There are several benefices to integrate a third party widgetery:

* We do no need to maintain it, only the binding
* Squeak could be use to write more traditional GUI application
* It will make us closer to the Squeak.org version, free software
community compatible

Next come the Morphic issue if it can be relisenced:
1. Morphic could be used to bootstrap the GIU Squeak.org version
2. GUI IDE tools could be developed with ToolBuilder
3. Next an unloadable version of Morphic could be arranged.

Even if we can not relicense Morphic, we could get a reduced version of
Squeak.org without it, and also the possibility to load it and embed it
in the GUI (as it was demonstrated there
http://www.swerlingphoto.com/squeak/wxmorphic/WxMorphic.html)

In this vision of a Squeak.org, Morphic will be an extension canvas
which can be load in Squeak.org at will.

Many of us would like to keep and improve Morphic, many resources were
developed for it. That way we could get the best of the two world.

Bruno Luca, Rob Gayvert is it something that sound appealing to you?

What do think other?

Does it sound appealing or is just nuts ?

Hilaire

Ron Teitelbaum

RE: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

+1 for wxSqueak

Ron Teitelbaum

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Hilaire Fernandes
> Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:19 AM
> To: Squeak Devel
> Subject: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org
>
> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
> community compatible)
>
> A few days ago Bruno as announced some progress in SqueakGTK work. Last
> year there were this couple of release with wxSqueak, since then it
> seems to be quiet.
>
> Nevertheless, should we not give a chance to these projects and
> carefully examine how we could take one of them to be mainstream in
> Squeak.org.
>
> There are several benefices to integrate a third party widgetery:
>
> * We do no need to maintain it, only the binding
> * Squeak could be use to write more traditional GUI application
> * It will make us closer to the Squeak.org version, free software
> community compatible
>
> Next come the Morphic issue if it can be relisenced:
> 1. Morphic could be used to bootstrap the GIU Squeak.org version
> 2. GUI IDE tools could be developed with ToolBuilder
> 3. Next an unloadable version of Morphic could be arranged.
>
> Even if we can not relicense Morphic, we could get a reduced version of
> Squeak.org without it, and also the possibility to load it and embed it
> in the GUI (as it was demonstrated there
> http://www.swerlingphoto.com/squeak/wxmorphic/WxMorphic.html)
>
> In this vision of a Squeak.org, Morphic will be an extension canvas
> which can be load in Squeak.org at will.
>
> Many of us would like to keep and improve Morphic, many resources were
> developed for it. That way we could get the best of the two world.
>
> Bruno Luca, Rob Gayvert is it something that sound appealing to you?
>
> What do think other?
>
> Does it sound appealing or is just nuts ?
>
> Hilaire

garduino

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

I like also wxSqueak, but my main concern is about the modified VM.

I don't know so much about the details of VM modifications, but may be
possible to integrate such modifications in the "official" vm's?

This could be an important question I think.

Cheers.

gsa.

2006/7/7, Ron Teitelbaum <[hidden email]>:

> +1 for wxSqueak
>
> Ron Teitelbaum
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [hidden email] [mailto:squeak-dev-
> > [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Hilaire Fernandes
> > Sent: Friday, July 07, 2006 11:19 AM
> > To: Squeak Devel
> > Subject: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org
> >
> > (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
> > community compatible)
> >
> > A few days ago Bruno as announced some progress in SqueakGTK work. Last
> > year there were this couple of release with wxSqueak, since then it
> > seems to be quiet.
> >
> > Nevertheless, should we not give a chance to these projects and
> > carefully examine how we could take one of them to be mainstream in
> > Squeak.org.
> >
> > There are several benefices to integrate a third party widgetery:
> >
> > * We do no need to maintain it, only the binding
> > * Squeak could be use to write more traditional GUI application
> > * It will make us closer to the Squeak.org version, free software
> > community compatible
> >
> > Next come the Morphic issue if it can be relisenced:
> > 1. Morphic could be used to bootstrap the GIU Squeak.org version
> > 2. GUI IDE tools could be developed with ToolBuilder
> > 3. Next an unloadable version of Morphic could be arranged.
> >
> > Even if we can not relicense Morphic, we could get a reduced version of
> > Squeak.org without it, and also the possibility to load it and embed it
> > in the GUI (as it was demonstrated there
> > http://www.swerlingphoto.com/squeak/wxmorphic/WxMorphic.html)
> >
> > In this vision of a Squeak.org, Morphic will be an extension canvas
> > which can be load in Squeak.org at will.
> >
> > Many of us would like to keep and improve Morphic, many resources were
> > developed for it. That way we could get the best of the two world.
> >
> > Bruno Luca, Rob Gayvert is it something that sound appealing to you?
> >
> > What do think other?
> >
> > Does it sound appealing or is just nuts ?
> >
> > Hilaire
>
>
>
>

--
Germán S. Arduino
http://www.arsol.biz
http://www.arsol.net

Luca Bruno aka Lethalman

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by Hilaire Fernandes-5

On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:19:13 +0200, Hilaire Fernandes
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
> community compatible)
>
> A few days ago Bruno as announced some progress in SqueakGTK work. Last
> year there were this couple of release with wxSqueak, since then it
> seems to be quiet.
>
> Nevertheless, should we not give a chance to these projects and
> carefully examine how we could take one of them to be mainstream in
> Squeak.org.
>
> There are several benefices to integrate a third party widgetery:
>
> * We do no need to maintain it, only the binding
> * Squeak could be use to write more traditional GUI application
> * It will make us closer to the Squeak.org version, free software
> community compatible
>
> Next come the Morphic issue if it can be relisenced:
> 1. Morphic could be used to bootstrap the GIU Squeak.org version
> 2. GUI IDE tools could be developed with ToolBuilder
> 3. Next an unloadable version of Morphic could be arranged.
>
> Even if we can not relicense Morphic, we could get a reduced version of
> Squeak.org without it, and also the possibility to load it and embed it
> in the GUI (as it was demonstrated there
> http://www.swerlingphoto.com/squeak/wxmorphic/WxMorphic.html)
>
> In this vision of a Squeak.org, Morphic will be an extension canvas
> which can be load in Squeak.org at will.
>
> Many of us would like to keep and improve Morphic, many resources were
> developed for it. That way we could get the best of the two world.
>
> Bruno Luca, Rob Gayvert is it something that sound appealing to you?
>
> What do think other?
>
> Does it sound appealing or is just nuts ?
>
> Hilaire
>

wxSqueak is currently really more complete than SqueakGtk, therefore i
vote +1 for wxSqueak.
Also i heard Rob Gayvert is making interesting changes, like wxGTK on
linux and the unicode support.
I think SqueakGtk is not mature enough for this at the moment, eventough i
would be really happy to have SqueakGtk as mainstream ;)

However Gtk is going to be an interesting toolkit more and more with
latest releases, with a great support and a fast development. SqueakGtk
wraps almost all Gtk classes, with basic Glib, GObject and Gdk support...
it has been tested the first time by Goran Krampe on Windows, now i
couldn't try it on Windows.

--
www.lethalman.net - Thoughts about internet technologies

Cees De Groot

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by Hilaire Fernandes-5

On 7/7/06, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote:
> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
> community compatible)
>

Why one UI? Why one *anything*?

The only move I am going to lift a finger on is a move that brings us
closer to the idea of Squeak as a platform. Which probably means
burning diskpacks, starting with Spoon or something similarly small,
and then pretending that we're Linux:
- a small kernel (really small, not "linux small" ;-));
- lots and lots of packages under different licenses;
- people building distro's. A web dev distro, a wxUI distro, ...

Squeak must become an eco system. Think Java, Linux. A reasonably
small amount of common code that lays the groundwork, and let the
community sort it out from there. If you want a new kind of Squeak,
just assemble it. If you want to share it, publish it. If it becomes
popular and the de facto main distribution, congrats.

Oh, and we have everything in place. As in Spoon works, we have a
package system (sort of. several even :-)), lots of packages, and so
on.

We'd just need to declare it the next thing.

Dan Shafer-3

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

To the extent that this move addresses the deliverability issue, I'd
sign up to work on it for sure.

Dan
On Jul 7, 2006, at 12:17 PM, Cees De Groot wrote:

> On 7/7/06, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
>> community compatible)
>>
>
> Why one UI? Why one *anything*?
>
> The only move I am going to lift a finger on is a move that brings us
> closer to the idea of Squeak as a platform. Which probably means
> burning diskpacks, starting with Spoon or something similarly small,
> and then pretending that we're Linux:
> - a small kernel (really small, not "linux small" ;-));
> - lots and lots of packages under different licenses;
> - people building distro's. A web dev distro, a wxUI distro, ...
>
> Squeak must become an eco system. Think Java, Linux. A reasonably
> small amount of common code that lays the groundwork, and let the
> community sort it out from there. If you want a new kind of Squeak,
> just assemble it. If you want to share it, publish it. If it becomes
> popular and the de facto main distribution, congrats.
>
> Oh, and we have everything in place. As in Spoon works, we have a
> package system (sort of. several even :-)), lots of packages, and so
> on.
>
> We'd just need to declare it the next thing.
>

Hilaire Fernandes-5

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by Cees De Groot

Cees De Groot a écrit :
> On 7/7/06, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
>> community compatible)
>>
>
> Why one UI? Why one *anything*?

No it is one Squeak.org version, free software community compatible

> Oh, and we have everything in place. As in Spoon works, we have a
> package system (sort of. several even :-)), lots of packages, and so
> on.
>
> We'd just need to declare it the next thing.

Why not.
Also people seem to prefer the idea of wxSqueak UI experience, what
about getting it into Spoon.

Hilaire

timrowledge

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

On 7-Jul-06, at 4:22 PM, Hilaire Fernandes wrote:

>
>
> Cees De Groot a écrit :
>> On 7/7/06, Hilaire Fernandes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
>>> community compatible)
>>>
>>
>> Why one UI? Why one *anything*?
>
> No it is one Squeak.org version, free software community compatible

I echo Cees - why one version?

>
>
>> Oh, and we have everything in place. As in Spoon works, we have a
>> package system (sort of. several even :-)), lots of packages, and so
>> on.
>>
>> We'd just need to declare it the next thing.
>
> Why not.
> Also people seem to prefer the idea of wxSqueak UI experience, what
> about getting it into Spoon.

Work. Lots of it. We need people with time and *commitment* to do
said work.

tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
"Oh bother" said Pooh, as he reached for the reset button

Brad Fuller

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by Hilaire Fernandes-5

Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
> community compatible)
>
I believe this defn of "squeak.org" was in the llloooonnnggg thread
earlier. But, I can' t find the defn.
Can you explain it, please?

--
brad
sonaural

Hilaire Fernandes-5

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by timrowledge

tim Rowledge a écrit :

>> No it is one Squeak.org version, free software community compatible
>
>
> I echo Cees - why one version?

Oh, because one is the number comming just after zero.
And now we have zero "Squeak.org version, free software community
compatible".
Of course if we can have plenty of it it will be even better, but let's
be realistic and let's try to do a first one.

>>> Oh, and we have everything in place. As in Spoon works, we have a
>>> package system (sort of. several even :-)), lots of packages, and so
>>> on.
>>>
>>> We'd just need to declare it the next thing.
>>
>>
>> Why not.
>> Also people seem to prefer the idea of wxSqueak UI experience, what
>> about getting it into Spoon.
>
>
> Work. Lots of it. We need people with time and *commitment* to do said
> work.

I agree, but first before, don't we need to decide where we want to go?
Please guys can we move the discussion at the meta-level (the one some
people say it is the political level), the one you need before you wrote
any piece of code.

It is my felling that the Sqeak community is sunking. Earlier this year
Alan Kay put the final touch to its desintegration with his "Let's do it
with Python because the Python community is 'smarter' than the Squeak one"

Have you noticed that Marcus is not posting anymore there? He's the one
who help to bring us Squeak.org3.9, a comminuty work.

We need to have a common goal (and better an exciting one), so the
Squeak community can attract people to contribute and help. Without such
vision it is unlikely people will feel it is worth the effort.
And I am sorry to say that again, but the YES-NO game does not help for
such goal.

For the major part of its existence, Squeak was developed as a pet
project at Apple, Dysney, HP. And now we have Viewpointresearchinstitute
and also Squeak.org handled by a community. In the move from the
corporate sphere to the community one, the squeak.org community has not
matured yet, the SqueakFoundation seems to have difficulty to affirm itself.

Hilaire

Hilaire Fernandes-5

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by Brad Fuller

Brad Fuller a écrit :
> Hilaire Fernandes wrote:
>
>>(Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
>>community compatible)
>>
>
> I believe this defn of "squeak.org" was in the llloooonnnggg thread
> earlier. But, I can' t find the defn.
> Can you explain it, please?

A mere definition: The Squeak version handled by the Squeak community at
http://www.squeak.org

To differentiate from forked versions as Spoon, OpenCroquet, Smallland,
iTweak, wxSqueak, Squeakland. I guess I forget other forks.

Hilaire

stéphane ducasse-2

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by Cees De Groot

>
> We'd just need to declare it the next thing.

And count who will do it.
Declaration and talks are cool, actions are better.

Stef (the guy harvesting changes).

stéphane ducasse-2

Re: SqueakGTK or SqueakWX mainstream in Squeak.org

In reply to this post by Luca Bruno aka Lethalman

Hi luca

keep going. This would be really great to have a cool GTK binding for
Squeak :)
Continue. Basically any interesting piece of software is the result
of a long period of work :)

Stef

On 7 juil. 06, at 20:50, Bruno Luca wrote:

> On Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:19:13 +0200, Hilaire Fernandes
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> (Still with the idea to get a core Squeak.org version, free software
>> community compatible)
>>
>> A few days ago Bruno as announced some progress in SqueakGTK work.
>> Last
>> year there were this couple of release with wxSqueak, since then it
>> seems to be quiet.
>>
>> Nevertheless, should we not give a chance to these projects and
>> carefully examine how we could take one of them to be mainstream in
>> Squeak.org.
>>
>> There are several benefices to integrate a third party widgetery:
>>
>> * We do no need to maintain it, only the binding
>> * Squeak could be use to write more traditional GUI application
>> * It will make us closer to the Squeak.org version, free software
>> community compatible
>>
>> Next come the Morphic issue if it can be relisenced:
>> 1. Morphic could be used to bootstrap the GIU Squeak.org version
>> 2. GUI IDE tools could be developed with ToolBuilder
>> 3. Next an unloadable version of Morphic could be arranged.
>>
>> Even if we can not relicense Morphic, we could get a reduced
>> version of
>> Squeak.org without it, and also the possibility to load it and
>> embed it
>> in the GUI (as it was demonstrated there
>> http://www.swerlingphoto.com/squeak/wxmorphic/WxMorphic.html)
>>
>> In this vision of a Squeak.org, Morphic will be an extension canvas
>> which can be load in Squeak.org at will.
>>
>> Many of us would like to keep and improve Morphic, many resources
>> were
>> developed for it. That way we could get the best of the two world.
>>
>> Bruno Luca, Rob Gayvert is it something that sound appealing to you?
>>
>> What do think other?
>>
>> Does it sound appealing or is just nuts ?
>>
>> Hilaire
>>
>
> wxSqueak is currently really more complete than SqueakGtk,
> therefore i vote +1 for wxSqueak.
> Also i heard Rob Gayvert is making interesting changes, like wxGTK
> on linux and the unicode support.
> I think SqueakGtk is not mature enough for this at the moment,
> eventough i would be really happy to have SqueakGtk as mainstream ;)
>
> However Gtk is going to be an interesting toolkit more and more
> with latest releases, with a great support and a fast development.
> SqueakGtk wraps almost all Gtk classes, with basic Glib, GObject
> and Gdk support... it has been tested the first time by Goran
> Krampe on Windows, now i couldn't try it on Windows.
>
> --
> www.lethalman.net - Thoughts about internet technologies
>