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SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

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Trygve

SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

I suppose I have missed something, the question is what?

The VM crashes when I try to install BabySRE-TRee39 package from SqueakMap.
The VM also crashes when I try to install Balloon3D 1.0.4 package from
SqueakMap.

OS: WinXP version 5.1, SP 2
Image: Squeak3.10beta.7158
VM: SqueakVM-3.10.6

What's wrong?

Thanks
--Trygve

--

Trygve Reenskaug mailto: [hidden email]
Morgedalsvn. 5A http://folk.uio.no/trygver
N-0378 Oslo Tel: (+47) 22 49 57 27
Norway

Göran Krampe

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

Hi!

Trygve Reenskaug <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I suppose I have missed something, the question is what?
>
> The VM crashes when I try to install BabySRE-TRee39 package from SqueakMap.
> The VM also crashes when I try to install Balloon3D 1.0.4 package from
> SqueakMap.
>
> OS: WinXP version 5.1, SP 2
> Image: Squeak3.10beta.7158
> VM: SqueakVM-3.10.6
>
> What's wrong?

I just installed that package into my 7158 image - but on Linux using an
older VM. So my guess is that it is not SM related, possibly VM related
- dunno.

regards, Göran

Edgar J. De Cleene

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Trygve

El 10/25/07 11:31 AM, "Trygve Reenskaug" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> The VM crashes when I try to install BabySRE-TRee39 package from SqueakMap.
> The VM also crashes when I try to install Balloon3D 1.0.4 package from
> SqueakMap.

For your excellent code, I could always load from 3.10 release start, (I
admire this !!)
All you need is drag and drop on the image from previous saved .mcz.
Of course, you need Connectors, also works in 3.10.
Don't know about if you have a Package Universes for it, remember this is
the prefered choice now.
Maybe SqueakMap version is broken ?

For Ballon3D I see Orphanage from SqueakMap. And 3.6 Squeak.
I have it in the FunSqueak version , and also Wonderland, but is causing
collateral troubles.

Edgar

Tapple Gao

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Trygve

On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 04:31:55PM +0200, Trygve Reenskaug wrote:

One problem I have seen with SqueakMap in 7158 came from change
7142. Some code in DataStream, which is used to read the
ImageSegments used by SqueakMap was broken by replacing several
object identity comparisons with equality. I have not seen a
crash, but I would suspect the problems are related. For this
reason, I am sticking with image version 7137 until I or someone
else resolve the bugs introduced in 7142.

--
Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808

Edgar J. De Cleene

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

El 10/27/07 2:05 PM, "Matthew Fulmer" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> One problem I have seen with SqueakMap in 7158 came from change
> 7142.

Nope.
I repeat recipe I give a month ago.

>> Some verbose , but clear how to rid of old versions files disturbing normal
>> 3.10 peace.
>>
>> | directoryName directory filesToErase |
>> directoryName := (FileDirectory default pathName ,FileDirectory slash, 'sm').
>> directory := FileDirectory on: directoryName.
>> filesToErase := directory fileNamesMatching: '*.sgz'.
>> filesToErase do:[:filename| directory deleteFileNamed: filename]
>>
>>
>> And the answer why fail is Goran use ImageSegments (he have many to me to
>> learn) and the classes in 3.9 or earlier was different.
>>
>> That's why many .pr fails to load
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>> Edgar

> I am sticking with image version 7137 until I or someone
> else resolve the bugs introduced in 7142.
You could use any Squeak you like.
I was the guilty of trust Dan and someone which do the change before me and
I decide doing for 3.10
The bad news is 98% of 172 methods Dan code change are right and only a few
need ==.
I send proposal how to deal with this, but still no decision.

And for the last time, you should use Universes.
If your wished code is not in Universes, means author is not active this
days.
SqueakMap was a very valuable tool, like any good library is.
But don't guaranties of code in SM works in 3.10, if not say so.
And if say works , must be in Universes.

Edgar

Chris Muller-3

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

> And for the last time, you should use Universes.
> If your wished code is not in Universes, means author is not active this
> days.
> SqueakMap was a very valuable tool, like any good library is.
> But don't guaranties of code in SM works in 3.10, if not say so.
> And if say works , must be in Universes.

Edgar, you are sounding way too tyrannical here. As the developer of
the "next Squeak" please find the idea of "software freedom" in your
heart asap. Help people integrate what they need and want, don't tell
them they're wrong for wanting something you don't care about.

> And for the last time...

I truly hope this *is* the last time we hear something so ridiculous
from you. There are many avid Squeakers who do not use Universes. I
happen to be one of them. SqueakMap is a great Squeak legacy and
allows stuff to be loaded into a clean image. Universes, to me,
sounds a bit misguided, and far from making rendering SqueakMap
obsolete.

Thanks.

On 10/28/07, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
>
> El 10/27/07 2:05 PM, "Matthew Fulmer" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>
> > One problem I have seen with SqueakMap in 7158 came from change
> > 7142.
>
> Nope.
> I repeat recipe I give a month ago.
> >> Some verbose , but clear how to rid of old versions files disturbing normal
> >> 3.10 peace.
> >>
> >> | directoryName directory filesToErase |
> >> directoryName := (FileDirectory default pathName ,FileDirectory slash, 'sm').
> >> directory := FileDirectory on: directoryName.
> >> filesToErase := directory fileNamesMatching: '*.sgz'.
> >> filesToErase do:[:filename| directory deleteFileNamed: filename]
> >>
> >>
> >> And the answer why fail is Goran use ImageSegments (he have many to me to
> >> learn) and the classes in 3.9 or earlier was different.
> >>
> >> That's why many .pr fails to load
> >>
> >> Hope this helps.
> >>
> >> Edgar
>
> > I am sticking with image version 7137 until I or someone
> > else resolve the bugs introduced in 7142.
> You could use any Squeak you like.
> I was the guilty of trust Dan and someone which do the change before me and
> I decide doing for 3.10
> The bad news is 98% of 172 methods Dan code change are right and only a few
> need ==.
> I send proposal how to deal with this, but still no decision.
>
> And for the last time, you should use Universes.
> If your wished code is not in Universes, means author is not active this
> days.
> SqueakMap was a very valuable tool, like any good library is.
> But don't guaranties of code in SM works in 3.10, if not say so.
> And if say works , must be in Universes.
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>

Jason Johnson-5

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

On 10/31/07, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> SqueakMap is a great Squeak legacy and
> allows stuff to be loaded into a clean image. Universes, to me,
> sounds a bit misguided, and far from making rendering SqueakMap
> obsolete.

I'm confused here. As far as I know:

SqueakMap is a tool that allows one to load a package into an image
Universes is a tool that allows one to load a package into an image,
but is more sophisticated (e.g. understands dependencies).

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because by that definition SqueakMap
appears to be clearly obsolete from a technical point of view.

Note, I'm only speaking to your statement about Universes being
misguided and not rendering SqueakMap obsolete. The nostalgia of SM
and the purpose it serves as a record of anything ever done in Squeak
are a separate concern.

NorbertHartl

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 06:01 +0100, Jason Johnson wrote:

> On 10/31/07, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > SqueakMap is a great Squeak legacy and
> > allows stuff to be loaded into a clean image. Universes, to me,
> > sounds a bit misguided, and far from making rendering SqueakMap
> > obsolete.
>
> I'm confused here. As far as I know:
>
> SqueakMap is a tool that allows one to load a package into an image
> Universes is a tool that allows one to load a package into an image,
> but is more sophisticated (e.g. understands dependencies).

> Please correct me if I'm wrong, because by that definition SqueakMap
> appears to be clearly obsolete from a technical point of view.
>
> Note, I'm only speaking to your statement about Universes being
> misguided and not rendering SqueakMap obsolete. The nostalgia of SM
> and the purpose it serves as a record of anything ever done in Squeak
> are a separate concern.
>
I'm a user of universes but I cannot agree with the statement of
squeakmap being obsolete. Squeakmap is a good tool to install packages.
It has proven that it works for exactly that need.
To say a tool which manages dependencies is more sophisticated is
problematic in my opinion. At first dependencies introduce complexity
which isn't always good. The upside of having dependencies has the
downside to be hussled by dependencies. With dependencies it is easy
to install software in first place. If I have my own set of module
versions I don't want to have a tool which decides to install other
versions than the ones I like. I know this can be prevented but it
stays problematic.

I know the success story of such a system quite well. It is called
debian. There you are forced to use dependencies (most of the time).
In the debian world this is a good thing because a lot of work goes
into the management of these dependencies and into the inter-
operability of the packages which depend on each other. Please do
not ignore this extra effort. In my opinion I don't have a problem
with this system in debian because I know I can trust them.

Maybe there will be a time when universes split into more universes
of stability (or other categories) where a lot of people have an eye
on the interoperability and the dependencies. At this time having
a browser which lets me override dependencies would be very good.
I think at this time I would reconsider squeakmap being obsolete :)

At the end I learned something valuable from this list: Something is
obsolete if nobody wants to use it anymore. And it doesn't seem to be
the case right now.

Norbert

stephane ducasse

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Tapple Gao

did you report this bug?

Stef

On 27 oct. 07, at 19:05, Matthew Fulmer wrote:

> On Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 04:31:55PM +0200, Trygve Reenskaug wrote:
>> I suppose I have missed something, the question is what?
>>
>> The VM crashes when I try to install BabySRE-TRee39 package from
>> SqueakMap.
>> The VM also crashes when I try to install Balloon3D 1.0.4 package
>> from
>> SqueakMap.
>>
>> OS: WinXP version 5.1, SP 2
>> Image: Squeak3.10beta.7158
>> VM: SqueakVM-3.10.6
>>
>> What's wrong?
>
> One problem I have seen with SqueakMap in 7158 came from change
> 7142. Some code in DataStream, which is used to read the
> ImageSegments used by SqueakMap was broken by replacing several
> object identity comparisons with equality. I have not seen a
> crash, but I would suspect the problems are related. For this
> reason, I am sticking with image version 7137 until I or someone
> else resolve the bugs introduced in 7142.
>
> --
> Matthew Fulmer -- http://mtfulmer.wordpress.com/
> Help improve Squeak Documentation: http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/808
>
>

stephane ducasse

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Edgar J. De Cleene

Hi edgar

can you explain exactly what you did because this is totally opaque
to me?
It is amazing that lot of changes in squeak 3.10 were not advertise
and got feedback from the community.

>> I am sticking with image version 7137 until I or someone
>> else resolve the bugs introduced in 7142.
> You could use any Squeak you like.

no this is not a good answer.

> I was the guilty of trust Dan and someone which do the change
> before me and
> I decide doing for 3.10
> The bad news is 98% of 172 methods Dan code change are right and
> only a few
> need ==.
> I send proposal how to deal with this, but still no decision.
>
> And for the last time, you should use Universes.
> If your wished code is not in Universes, means author is not active
> this
> days.
> SqueakMap was a very valuable tool, like any good library is.
> But don't guaranties of code in SM works in 3.10, if not say so.
> And if say works , must be in Universes.
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>

stephane ducasse

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3

chris

the intention being universes is to have a kind of certified release
which is really valuable.
Since lot of squeakmap packages do not indicate really if they work
on not in a given version.

Stef

On 31 oct. 07, at 02:22, Chris Muller wrote:

>> And for the last time, you should use Universes.
>> If your wished code is not in Universes, means author is not
>> active this
>> days.
>> SqueakMap was a very valuable tool, like any good library is.
>> But don't guaranties of code in SM works in 3.10, if not say so.
>> And if say works , must be in Universes.
>
> Edgar, you are sounding way too tyrannical here. As the developer of
> the "next Squeak" please find the idea of "software freedom" in your
> heart asap. Help people integrate what they need and want, don't tell
> them they're wrong for wanting something you don't care about.
>
>> And for the last time...
>
> I truly hope this *is* the last time we hear something so ridiculous
> from you. There are many avid Squeakers who do not use Universes. I
> happen to be one of them. SqueakMap is a great Squeak legacy and
> allows stuff to be loaded into a clean image. Universes, to me,
> sounds a bit misguided, and far from making rendering SqueakMap
> obsolete.
>
> Thanks.
>
> On 10/28/07, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> El 10/27/07 2:05 PM, "Matthew Fulmer" <[hidden email]> escribió:
>>
>>> One problem I have seen with SqueakMap in 7158 came from change
>>> 7142.
>>
>> Nope.
>> I repeat recipe I give a month ago.
>>>> Some verbose , but clear how to rid of old versions files
>>>> disturbing normal
>>>> 3.10 peace.
>>>>
>>>> | directoryName directory filesToErase |
>>>> directoryName := (FileDirectory default pathName ,FileDirectory
>>>> slash, 'sm').
>>>> directory := FileDirectory on: directoryName.
>>>> filesToErase := directory fileNamesMatching: '*.sgz'.
>>>> filesToErase do:[:filename| directory deleteFileNamed: filename]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And the answer why fail is Goran use ImageSegments (he have many
>>>> to me to
>>>> learn) and the classes in 3.9 or earlier was different.
>>>>
>>>> That's why many .pr fails to load
>>>>
>>>> Hope this helps.
>>>>
>>>> Edgar
>>
>>> I am sticking with image version 7137 until I or someone
>>> else resolve the bugs introduced in 7142.
>> You could use any Squeak you like.
>> I was the guilty of trust Dan and someone which do the change
>> before me and
>> I decide doing for 3.10
>> The bad news is 98% of 172 methods Dan code change are right and
>> only a few
>> need ==.
>> I send proposal how to deal with this, but still no decision.
>>
>> And for the last time, you should use Universes.
>> If your wished code is not in Universes, means author is not
>> active this
>> days.
>> SqueakMap was a very valuable tool, like any good library is.
>> But don't guaranties of code in SM works in 3.10, if not say so.
>> And if say works , must be in Universes.
>>
>> Edgar
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

Edgar J. De Cleene

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Chris Muller-3

El 10/30/07 10:22 PM, "Chris Muller" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> Edgar, you are sounding way too tyrannical here. As the developer of
the
> "next Squeak" please find the idea of "software freedom" in your
heart asap.
> Help people integrate what they need and want, don't tell
them they're wrong
> for wanting something you don't care about.

> And for the last time...

I
> truly hope this *is* the last time we hear something so ridiculous
from you.
> There are many avid Squeakers who do not use Universes. I
happen to be one of
> them. SqueakMap is a great Squeak legacy and
allows stuff to be loaded into a
> clean image. Universes, to me,
sounds a bit misguided, and far from making
> rendering SqueakMap
obsolete.

I never said SquekMap is obsolete or you don't could use it.

The question is :

People want a smaller image (less packages in base) as we have now ?
And this smaller image could load any Squeak code from past and future ?

If the answer is not, people should download ready to use images , like the
excellent of Damien for 3.10.
Or 3.8.2 full if this suits his needs.

If the answer is yes, people should encourage guys trying to reach this.
Meaning some sacrifices are needed.

Today you could use SqueakMap , Universes , Installer and Monticello as ways
to load code into 3.10.

I hope in futures Squeak you don't have any (image could don't have this 4
packages) .

And still you should have a way to load again one or all this plus any you
wish.

In the distant future, Squeak become Spoon, all you need is type "I want
mp3" for cite some people request recently and not more into 3.10.

And this NeXtqueak could intellingent load any needed code.

Like my vision ?

Edgar

Edgar J. De Cleene

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by stephane ducasse

El 10/31/07 6:22 AM, "stephane ducasse" <[hidden email]> escribió:

> Hi edgar
>
> can you explain exactly what you did because this is totally opaque
> to me?
> It is amazing that lot of changes in squeak 3.10 were not advertise
> and got feedback from the community.

I think you was in the 3dot10 list.
>> I am sticking with image version 7137 until I or someone
>> else resolve the bugs introduced in 7142.

If you mean this is http://bugs.squeak.org/view.php?id=2788 and have a long
history.
The short story is my work around to have the 172 methods the Dan fix touch
don't change the timestamp showing I mess some.
And the fix is only 98% correct, meaning sometimes we need == anyway as
Jerome and others discover.
I send proposals to how to deal with this, none was choose to this day.

SqueakMap troubles was no related to this or any other 3.10 bug.
Is related , as I said in before mail to ImageSegments Goran use to store
the map in user computer.
My trick rip all old files and lets SqueakMap works as ever.

I like SqueakMap, admire any Goran do and hope one day I could learn some
from he.
If I itching people trying to realize Squeak should move the smaller images
ways, sorry gus, is how I see the future.

Maybe some have the new CrystalBall Leopard compatible ? :=)

Edgar

David T. Lewis

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Jason Johnson-5

On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 06:01:44AM +0100, Jason Johnson wrote:

Yes, you are confused. SqueakMap is a catalogue of available stuff
that may or may not be appropriate for the image you are running.
Universes define collections of stuff from SqueakMap (and elsewhere)
that will probably work with the image you are running. These are
completely different goals, and the two are complementary.

Portraying SqueakMap and Universes as competitors is very unhelpful.
It is likely to discourage much-needed improvements to SqueakMap,
and it comes across (at least to me) as unappreciative of the work
of the people who have developed and supported it.

Dave

Ralph Johnson

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Edgar J. De Cleene

On 10/31/07, Edgar J. De Cleene <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I send proposals to how to deal with this, none was choose to this day.

I thought we had decided that you would take out those changes, and
that other people would gradually reintroduce them, after they had
looked at the changes and decided that they were correct.

-Ralph

Jason Johnson-5

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by David T. Lewis

On 10/31/07, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Yes, you are confused. SqueakMap is a catalogue of available stuff
> that may or may not be appropriate for the image you are running.
> Universes define collections of stuff from SqueakMap (and elsewhere)
> that will probably work with the image you are running. These are
> completely different goals, and the two are complementary.

Well, that may be, but I'm pretty sure that most people use it as a
way of loading packages into their system. And that functionality is
clearly less functional then universes.

> Portraying SqueakMap and Universes as competitors is very unhelpful.
> It is likely to discourage much-needed improvements to SqueakMap,
> and it comes across (at least to me) as unappreciative of the work
> of the people who have developed and supported it.
>
> Dave

Do people in other fields get so emotionally attached to their tools?
It's hard to imagine someone holding a hammer getting offended if I
say that it's easier to cut boards in half with a saw.

Of course I appreciate the work that has been done and the people who
have made this all possible. And I appreciate that SqueakMap remains
a good catalog of everything ever made for Smalltalk. But as a "I'm
new to Squeak and want to load packages into my image" solution, it's
no longer the best option.

Jason Johnson-5

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by NorbertHartl

First off, I didn't mean completely obsoleted, in that it can be
deleted or something. It does serve a purpose still, just what I
perceive as it's previous main functionality is obsolete imo.

That's not a bad thing, that just means things changed. If you look
around and see northing's changing, then check your pulse, you must be
dead. SM has carved out a perfectly good niche of being the catalog
of Squeak, and will likely continue to do this indefinitely.

On 10/31/07, Norbert Hartl <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> To say a tool which manages dependencies is more sophisticated is
> problematic in my opinion. At first dependencies introduce complexity
> which isn't always good. The upside of having dependencies has the
> downside to be hussled by dependencies. With dependencies it is easy
> to install software in first place. If I have my own set of module
> versions I don't want to have a tool which decides to install other
> versions than the ones I like. I know this can be prevented but it
> stays problematic.

Göran Krampe

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by David T. Lewis

Hi folks!

> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 06:01:44AM +0100, Jason Johnson wrote:
>> On 10/31/07, Chris Muller <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >
>> > SqueakMap is a great Squeak legacy and
>> > allows stuff to be loaded into a clean image. Universes, to me,
>> > sounds a bit misguided, and far from making rendering SqueakMap
>> > obsolete.
>>
>> I'm confused here. As far as I know:
>>
>> SqueakMap is a tool that allows one to load a package into an image
>> Universes is a tool that allows one to load a package into an image,
>> but is more sophisticated (e.g. understands dependencies).
>>
>> Please correct me if I'm wrong, because by that definition SqueakMap
>> appears to be clearly obsolete from a technical point of view.
>
> Yes, you are confused. SqueakMap is a catalogue of available stuff
> that may or may not be appropriate for the image you are running.
> Universes define collections of stuff from SqueakMap (and elsewhere)
> that will probably work with the image you are running. These are
> completely different goals, and the two are complementary.
>
> Portraying SqueakMap and Universes as competitors is very unhelpful.
> It is likely to discourage much-needed improvements to SqueakMap,
> and it comes across (at least to me) as unappreciative of the work
> of the people who have developed and supported it.
>
> Dave

I am at large staying out of this discussion I think, but a few comments:

- Yes, they are different and should be complementary as they stand today.
- Yes, they also do overlap in many ways and could possibly be merged into
a single system, this has by the way been proposed by me and Brian Rice at
at least one point.
- I have had very little time moving SM forward and have also repeatedly
tried to round up interest in helping out on that "new SM" (not much luck
there though).
- I *personally* have some slight doubts about maintaining multiple
universes. I think most package maintainers have just energy enough to
maintain their package in ONE place, not multiple. I don't have a good
answer to that problem other than that if I had endless time to spend I
would make a new SM3 that "does Universes too" and thus could
theoretically replace both SM and Universes. But I don't have that time.
:)

regards, Göran

Giovanni Corriga

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

Il giorno mer, 31/10/2007 alle 21.33 +0100, Göran Krampe ha scritto:

> - Yes, they are different and should be complementary as they stand today.
> - Yes, they also do overlap in many ways and could possibly be merged into
> a single system, this has by the way been proposed by me and Brian Rice at
> at least one point.
> - I have had very little time moving SM forward and have also repeatedly
> tried to round up interest in helping out on that "new SM" (not much luck
> there though).

As I said a couple of times on #squeak, I have some ideas on how a SM3
could possibly work, and how it could be used as a lower-level layer for
Universes. If anyone wants to help, feel free to contact me.

Giovanni

Andreas.Raab

Re: SqueakMap crashes in 3.10 beta.7158

In reply to this post by Jason Johnson-5

Jason Johnson wrote:

> On 10/31/07, David T. Lewis <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Yes, you are confused. SqueakMap is a catalogue of available stuff
>> that may or may not be appropriate for the image you are running.
>> Universes define collections of stuff from SqueakMap (and elsewhere)
>> that will probably work with the image you are running. These are
>> completely different goals, and the two are complementary.
>
> Well, that may be, but I'm pretty sure that most people use it as a
> way of loading packages into their system. And that functionality is
> clearly less functional then universes.

For me, Universes are useless. Since I don't run the latest Squeak
versions I always go to SM when I need to find a particular package.
Since it has a web interface I (or Google) can find things there. Since
it lists the versions for which a package is available I can choose one
that is closest to what I need for porting. Universes are no replacement
for this.

> Do people in other fields get so emotionally attached to their tools?
> It's hard to imagine someone holding a hammer getting offended if I
> say that it's easier to cut boards in half with a saw.

You must be new here ;-) If people were less attached to their tools,
then Universes would have been built *on top of* SM so that it actually
increases the value of SM as a global repository of "all things squeak"
instead of having isolated, inaccessible repositories that decrease the
value of SM. SM and Universes are complementary; one serves the role of
a global repository for all Squeak code ever written and one serves the
purpose of defining versions of packages that work together. They could
easily enhance each other if people were less attached to their tools.

Cheers,
- Andreas

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