SqueakMap soon working in 4.0/4.1!

Hi folks!

Ok, so Maya is playing with a friend which means that I got some time
"on my own" in the sofa with my laptop :)

Thus I have done the following:

1. Added code to serialize/deserialize map using SmartRefStream. It
seems to be just as fast and small as an ImageSegment, almost even
faster! As a quick fix this seems the way to go. Any thoughts on that is
welcome.

2. Fixed several bugs in the SqueakMap code in trunk - it has evidently
rotted away! Downloading was broken by a refactoring done in january but
it was also broken due to changes in the HTTP code etc. Trival things to
fix though.

So now I have a working SqueakMap package loader in the rc2 image using
current unix VM. This relies on map files that are SmartRefStreams
instead called ".rgz" instead of ".sgz".

In order to be "all happy" we need to changet the code on the server
running at map.squeak.org so that it produces and hands out
SmartRefStream maps instead.

With a bit of luck I think we can make this switch for ALL images out
there using SqueakMap - SqueakMap has a version protocol so outdated
clients can react and autoupdate themselves. I will try this late tonight.

The executive summary: We should be able to have a working SqueakMap in
a few days.

regards, Göran

Hi all!

Göran Krampe wrote:
> The executive summary: We should be able to have a working SqueakMap in
> a few days.

And I should take this chance to cleanse the codebase quite a bit too -
ripping out old crap. The SM codebase is not ALL bad, it is actually
quite fine in many areas - but some bits should be removed, because they
were never followed through.

regards, Göran

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 02:38:03PM +0200, G?ran Krampe wrote:
>
> The executive summary: We should be able to have a working SqueakMap in
> a few days.

G?ran,

Thank you for doing this!!!

Dave

2010/4/7 Chris Cunnington <[hidden email]>:
>
> Three ways to find code for Squeak. Only one is updated with regularity and
> you're fixing a tool to feed the problem.

I was glad to read about what Göran did. I like when there is buzz
around the community and a lot of activity. It's an healthy sign.
However, you've got a strong point here and it expresses the lack of
focus as a community. I believe there have been some improvements in
this area since 2009 but it's good that we are all reminded once in a
while.

> Is there something I don't get here or is that what you're doing: making the
> location of code more of a problem for beginners coming to Squeak? Ensuring
> they find a seemingly working solution only to find that nobody updates the
> RFB on SqueakMap.

This is the Great Squeak Paradox: it is entirely beginners unfriendly. :)

Ian.
--
http://mecenia.blogspot.com/

On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 09:38:08PM -0400, Chris Cunnington wrote:
>
> Why on earth are you fixing SqueakMap?

Because SqueakMap maintains a catalogue of packages that have been
developed over the last ten years or so, many of which are not readily
accessible through any other mechanism.

SqueakMap is the original package catalogue for Squeak. It was and
still is a useful resource. Goran had the vision to see that SqueakMap
was needed, and took the initiative to create it before any other
such tools existed.

> How is this at all a good or useful thing?

It is useful because if you cannot find something or load it, then
it may as well not exist.

It is also useful because new Squeakers who explore the contents of
SqueakMap will find interesting artifacts to pique their interest,
whereas new Squeakers to encounter a broken SqueakMap will find only
frustration and confusion.

> Is there some kind of if-it's-broken-I-must-fix-it pathology going on here?

I certainly hope so.

Dave

David T. Lewis said: 

"Because SqueakMap maintains a catalogue of packages that have been
developed over the last ten years or so, many of which are not readily
accessible through any other mechanism."

I don't think that there are many packages that are of use to anybody on SqueakMap. If there is anything useful, it's found on squeaksource.com. If they haven't been moved to squeaksource.com, they've been abandoned. 

"It is also useful because new Squeakers who explore the contents of
SqueakMap will find interesting artifacts to pique their interest,
whereas new Squeakers to encounter a broken SqueakMap will find only
frustration and confusion."

Beginners suffer most often from too much noise and not enough signal. And that's what perpetuating this tool does. Their interest will not be piqued, but there confusion will be. We will have made things unclear by providing too many options. Beginners need not be confused by a broken Squeak Map: it should be removed. 

I know that's not going to happen. I know there's no will in the community to do this. It doesn't make it any less wrong. And with all due respect, David, I know a lot more about beginner-hood in dealing with Squeak than you do. You're an expert. You're pretty far removed from this problem. 

I can't believe I'm saying this, but Pharo is right on this point. SqueakMap must be destroyed. 

Chris 

Le 08/04/2010 04:29, David T. Lewis a écrit :
> On Wed, Apr 07, 2010 at 09:38:08PM -0400, Chris Cunnington wrote:
>>
>> Why on earth are you fixing SqueakMap?
>
> Because SqueakMap maintains a catalogue of packages that have been
> developed over the last ten years or so, many of which are not readily
> accessible through any other mechanism.

exactly.

plus, SqueakMap has a functional web front-end that make it easy to look
for existing packages, see what's there and what it does.

in my experience SqueakSource is very opaque and next to impossible to
navigate: you only have a huge projects list strangely sorted taking 99
pages, and a list of tags somewhat more useful but still very clumsy to
browse.

so, long live SqueakMap, and if it has to be deprecated, let it be
deprecated by something better, not just something else.

(my rant now: again an occurrence of this silly "my stuff is better than
yours, yours should die" shit... when will people learn to respect
other's ways ?)


Stef

> If they haven't been moved tosqueaksource.com  <http://squeaksource.com>, they've been abandoned.

all my stuff is on SqueakMap, none of it is abandoned:
http://map.squeak.org/accountbyid/5f9bef44-1fbb-4dd6-8f10-a69862ad5674

how can you be so confident you're right when you're so obviously wrong ?

Stef

> Beginners suffer most often from too much noise and not enough signal.

Beginners have to understand that the Squeak way is a way of variety; it
is messy, it is full of strange things, some old, some broken, it's
colorfoul and lively.

So by trying to help beginners by showing them something ordered and
clean you actually deserve them, because you cultivate unfounded
expectations.

Also, lots of different people with different views of Squeak are there.
By stating what you know better how things should be, you seem to imply
there is one clear way to go that everybody agrees on, and so here again
you deserve beginners if you make them believe that.

Thank you for your interest in beginners, but I don't think they need a
Savior.


Stef

2010/4/8 Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]>: I could second, that many online projects catalogues (sourceforge,
google projects, github) etc,
is plagued by a very same thing: they are full of half-done, broken
and non-working stuff.
But this not twarts users from using them, so why it should twart us
from squeakmap?

I think that any attempt to put an order in this mess is doomed to
fail, because there's no
anybody (and its physically impossible) to keep an eye on every
submission and mark it outdated
or do some quality check. It is up to users to concern about quality
of projects which they publishing, not
squeakmap itself.

Btw, i never used squeakmap to publish my stuff. But i don't see why
it should be forfeit and closed.
Because, in same sense, one might say: hey, i'm using google code, so
lets close sourceforge..

>
> Stef
>
>
>



--
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko AKA sig.

Hi!

First I would like to say that I am not sure how to respond to this
post, given your tone! I will try to just make my remarks as "factual"
as possible.

Chris Cunnington wrote:
> <rant>
>
> Why on earth are you fixing SqueakMap? How is this at all a good or
> useful thing?
>
> If I understand correctly, you want to make the Squeak Map Package
> Loader work.
> Is there some kind of if-it's-broken-I-must-fix-it pathology going on here?

If the SqueakMap Package Loader is still in the 4.0/4.1 image - then
surely having it *work* is better than having it *not work*, right?

Deciding if the SqueakMap Package Loader should be *removed* from the
image is another thing - and that is not up to me. I just want to help
maintain it, since I wrote it.

> If I were the king of Squeak I'd take hunt down both the Squeak Map
> Package Loader and the Universes Browser, get down with my bad Canadian
> self, and beat them to death like baby seals.
>
> Three ways to find code for Squeak.

No, not really. Universes and SqueakMap are indeed direct "competitors"
and I did argue hard for merging them when Lex wrote Universes - but he
was not interested in that. Now Lex is not AFAIK active anymore so
perhaps that path could easily be taken by the rest of us.

When Squeaksource was born I also noted that it overlaps with SqueakMap.
BUT it is NOT the same thing. Squeaksource is ONE (of many actually)
repository hubs that actually hosts code - and in only one format, MC.

SqueakMap is a catalog - and not a hub. It is also a singularity, there
is only one SqueakMap.

> Only one is updated with regularity

I can't really comment on how regular/irregular these three "portals"
are used, updated. I don't have numbers. But since most projects use MC
these days, and most developers do the least possible amount of work -
then they end up using Squeaksource and don't bother with
adding/maintaining an entry at SqueakMap.

This can however be automated/fixed if we would like to - and I think we
should.

> and you're fixing a tool to feed the problem.

No, I am not fixing it in order to feed a problem. I have no malicious
intent.

> Is there something I don't get here or is that what you're doing: making
> the location of code more of a problem for beginners coming to Squeak?

SqueakMap is a catalog, not a repository. And let's see - either it is
something you do not understand *or* I am actively with malicious intent
trying to make it harder for beginners.... hmmm, which one can it be...

> Ensuring they find a seemingly working solution only to find that nobody
> updates the RFB on SqueakMap.
>
> There should only be one way to get code for Squeak. One.

No. There should be multiple sources and multiple formats for code. If
we could have *one* catalog for finding stuff, then sure, that was the
original intent of SqueakMap you know - but I have since a long time
given up on trying to create monopolies.

Currently, if you want to host a Changeset or a SAR-file or a .st file
you can not do that on SS. You can do it using SqueakMap, and yes,
SqueakMap also offers hosting capability, but it does NOT try to be
Squeaksource. In fact, it doesn't even have a suitable MC repo protocol
for storing directly into it, because it was always meant to be a
catalog that played well with others.

Interestingly, when SS came to the scene and I warned people about
*some* of the consequences from the fact that we now had two partially
overlapping tools - then people did not consider it a problem. ;)

> All other should be chased across the ice and turned into coats.

An interesting perspective - especially in an open source community.

regards, Göran

Stéphane Rollandin wrote:
>> If they haven't been moved tosqueaksource.com  
>> <http://squeaksource.com>, they've been abandoned.
>
> all my stuff is on SqueakMap, none of it is abandoned:
> http://map.squeak.org/accountbyid/5f9bef44-1fbb-4dd6-8f10-a69862ad5674
>
> how can you be so confident you're right when you're so obviously wrong ?

Thanks Stéphane!

regards, Göran

I can see from the tone I've used that I've got people's backs up. One the one hand I have no desire to create personal animosity. On the other hand I'm glad some people are frothing mad, because this is in my mind a serious problem. We are creating a new image and we're bringing an outdated design attitude with us. We've been ruthless in cutting out some things and some perspectives, but not here it seems. 

Hello,

Am 2010-04-08 um 13:25 schrieb Chris Cunnington:

> Or, we can have all three, but not on the same menu. How about we prioritize places to get code.

"Places to get code" is a very fuzzy word.
„Über einen Kamm scheren“ we say in Germany.
I.e. You cannot. compare Squeaksource with (SqMap and Universes)
(whilst comparing Universes and SqMap can be compared).

Look at This:

Debian Squeak
http://ftp.debian.org (i.e, the package repository) squeaksource.com
dselect SqueakMap
aptitude Universes
apt-get Installer


I know this comparison does not hold completely
(something like dpkg is heavily missnig; cf. Metacello or Sake)
yet, I hope you understand my point.

So Long,
        -Tobias (who actually is Happy about SqMap)

Hi!

Sorry for the long post here.

Chris Cunnington wrote:
> I can see from the tone I've used that I've got people's backs up. One
> the one hand I have no desire to create personal animosity.

So far your tone is borderline for creating "personal animosity", I
still give you the benefit of the doubt though. :)

> On the other
> hand I'm glad some people are frothing mad, because this is in my mind a
> serious problem. We are creating a new image and we're bringing an
> outdated design attitude with us. We've been ruthless in cutting out
> some things and some perspectives, but not here it seems.

Btw, for some historical note - SqueakMap was from the beginning NOT in
the image. It was installable using a small snippet of code. There is no
big reason for not going back to that, but then we would need some easy
way to install it to begin with and... well, you see my point.

But Installer from Keith in combination with some nice menu with "These
are tools you probably would want to install - just pick one" that uses
Installer to pull these tools in might be nice. Again, just brainstorming.

> "SqueakMap is a catalog, not a repository. And let's see - either it is
> something you do not understand *or* I am actively with malicious intent
> trying to make it harder for beginners.... hmmm, which one can it be..."
>
> Yea, you're right I don't make this distinction, but that doesn't
> matter.

For personal animosity it matters to me. If you are accusing me of
malicious intent, it matters to me.

> If I open up one menu I see three code getting options. For all
> intents and purposes they are the same however they work.

Hmmm, well, Universes and SqueakMap - yes, clear (and historically
unfortunate) overlap. Universes is AFAIK abandoned, feel free to correct
me on that people. SqueakMap is not abandoned.

If the third is Monticello Browser (as I guess you mean) then that is
actually an SCM tool - not a package loader. Quite a bit of difference
in fact, both in intent and purposes. Although the *simplest* use case
is similar. I can give you lots of use cases which shows the differences.

And oh, Filelist and Changesorters etc are also tools to "get code"... :)

> "Deciding if the SqueakMap Package Loader should be *removed* from the
> image is another thing - and that is not up to me."
>
> This makes me totally insane. You're saying you're not responsible.
> Clearly nobody is. This is one of the banes of open source projects:
> stuff is just going to carry on into the future by inertia.

No, I was not saying that I am "not responsible" - I was saying that it
is not *up to me* - I mean that I can't decide on my own. Further down
in this post I give a proposal for a way forward, let's see if you are
willing to help me out with it? Because that is what it all comes down
to - someone willing and with time to actually *do* something.

> "No, I am not fixing it in order to feed a problem. I have no malicious
> intent."
>
> I know that. I know your personality and nothing is going to convince me
> you have any malicious intent. Due to the tone I've been using this is
> the kind of escalation that is a peril. Let's not go there.

Ok, fine, let *us* not go there. ;)

Yeah, something along those lines. Here is my proposal (from the hip):

1. Include some instructions in the image regarding "how to get stuff"
into the image. Seems like a good short term thing to do for 4.1. We can
easily explain the difference between SS and SM. PU (as it was called
earlier - Package Universes) is ... well, see below.

2. Possibly throw out Universes in 4.1 *iff* it does not work anymore
and noone can fix it. I haven't even tried it. Does it work?

3. Regardless of when we throw out Universes we should improve SM to
cover the "loss" of it. I have a rather simple idea on how to do that I
think, but it needs some coding help. And ideally we would "move the
content" too so that the stuff in PU that actually is used and works
(given that there is such stuff) can continue to work in SM. Chris? Others?

4. Improve SqueakMap. There is a loooong list of things we could do. One
thing of immediate interest given this discussion is to make it "mirror"
SS somehow so that packages hosted on SS are searchable and installable
from SqueakMap Package Loader and listed on map.squeak.org etc etc. We
could also revive the "Make release on SqueakMap"-button that used to be
in SS so that it can be used for *real* releases and not just for all
new versions. Chris? Others?

5. ...rewrite SM according to the rest of the looooong list of
ideas/improvements to it. Chris? Others?


Well, something like that.

One important aspect of SqueakMap that people seem to not "get" (and I
don't blame them, it is not obvious) is that it actually is more than a
catalog of packages. It is also a list of people. And it has a *model*
that is *inside your image*!

This means you can *do stuff* with this model. That was one of the real
interesting aspects of it! Like for example this:

(SMSqueakMap default packageWithName: 'muO') owner email

I even have code somewhere that never got in which from the Changesorter
can take a changeset, split it into multiple changesets based on
PackageInfo boundaries, compose an email with all these sub changesets
and then send it to all maintainers of affected packages.

And this was possible because with SM we have a full model all the way:

method->class->PI->SqueakMap package->maintainers/co-maintainers

I should really dig out that code again....

regards, Göran

>>>>> "Stéphane" == Stéphane Rollandin <[hidden email]> writes:

Stéphane> plus, SqueakMap has a functional web front-end that make it
Stéphane> easy to look for existing packages, see what's there and what
Stéphane> it does.

Stéphane> in my experience SqueakSource is very opaque and next to
Stéphane> impossible to navigate: you only have a huge projects list
Stéphane> strangely sorted taking 99 pages, and a list of tags somewhat
Stéphane> more useful but still very clumsy to browse.

Or, to put it another way:

SqueakSource is a building full of offices and luxury condos.

SqueakMap is an address and telephone directory.

You need both.  It'd be silly to get rid of the directory, just as it
would be silly to get rid of the building itself. :)

Put another way yet:

Not everything in SqueakSource is in SqueakMap (some things are
just semi-private repos).

Not everything in SqueakMap is in SqueakSource (many things live on
other repos, because SM is multilinking).

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

>>>>> "Göran" == Göran Krampe <[hidden email]> writes:

Göran> No, not really. Universes and SqueakMap are indeed direct
Göran> "competitors" and I did argue hard for merging them when Lex
Göran> wrote Universes - but he was not interested in that. Now Lex is
Göran> not AFAIK active anymore so perhaps that path could easily be
Göran> taken by the rest of us.

Universes solved the problem of dependencies, though, and I don't
think there much (yet?) in SqueakMap to fix that.

Now that we have Gofer and Metacello... SqueakMap would be pretty useful
if it could point to those descriptions.  We could make it the source of
one-stop-shopping again.

--
Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095
<[hidden email]> <URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/>
Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc.
See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion

Randal L. Schwartz wrote:
True, I started on my ideas for that (slightly too ambitious) and then
... Michal wrote Kabungu (dependencies for SM) but I never got it deployed.

If we "nuke" PU, then we really should add *some* kind of dependencies
to SM. Perhaps.

> Now that we have Gofer and Metacello... SqueakMap would be pretty useful
> if it could point to those descriptions.  We could make it the source of
> one-stop-shopping again.

Indeed, that is a really good idea. I like. SqueakMap was always meant
to be "package agnostic" and Metacello/Gofer - fine by me, just whip up
an SMInstaller subclass to deal with them! :)

regards, Göran

On 4/8/2010 5:23 AM, Göran Krampe wrote:
> 1. Include some instructions in the image regarding "how to get stuff"
> into the image. Seems like a good short term thing to do for 4.1. We can
> easily explain the difference between SS and SM. PU (as it was called
> earlier - Package Universes) is ... well, see below.

If you write it, I'll add it to the welcome notes (or perhaps in the
help menu).

> 2. Possibly throw out Universes in 4.1 *iff* it does not work anymore
> and noone can fix it. I haven't even tried it. Does it work?

It does. So does SM. Barring catastrophic circumstances, the set of
packages for 4.1 hopefully won't have to change at this point. Remember,
I want to ship this puppy next week :-)

Cheers,
   - Andreas