Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

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Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app, I've seen lots of discussion and speculation flow by on the esug, scratch and pharo lists, some of it correct, and some of it incorrect.

First, Scratch.app was remove from sale in the app store because the Scratch programming language is an interpreted language, and it's not on the approved interpreted language list.  My understanding is that Apple has not yet rejected apps because they are "made" with a particular language.  The rejection is solely due to the result of Scratch being a non approved 'interpreted" language.

Second, I drafted a letter titled: "Rejecting an app with foundations in the Dynabook vision" and posted it to: https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425

At this time, this letter is not for public viewing since I want to have more discussion with Apple and the paid Apple developer community. It seems having public rage about the unfairness about what Apple is doing just makes Apple less receptive to dialog. I would ask the community not to cross post my letter anywhere until we have had more discussions with Apple. As an example this morning there was talk with a member of the App review team about having this matter ending up on Phil Shiller's desk.

Third, I sent a copy of the letter to Steve Jobs.  He did respond.  Our incomplete conversation is private, no solution or decision has been reached, and due to Apple's earnings reports coming up next tuesday I don't foresee any activity on the matter until after that event.

Fourth, I have interest & support from Dr Alan Kay, Dr Mitchel Resnick, and others, I think people do take the matter about the freedom to write applications in a language of their choosing and using a particular implementation (interpreted, JIT, compiled) seriously, so I hope movement with Apple on the general topic will occur shortly.

Once Apple's management team has made a response I'm sure you will all hear about it.
 
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Re: [Esug-list] Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Stéphane Ducasse
thanks john!

On Apr 16, 2010, at 8:09 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app, I've seen lots of discussion and speculation flow by on the esug, scratch and pharo lists, some of it correct, and some of it incorrect.
>
> First, Scratch.app was remove from sale in the app store because the Scratch programming language is an interpreted language, and it's not on the approved interpreted language list.  My understanding is that Apple has not yet rejected apps because they are "made" with a particular language.  The rejection is solely due to the result of Scratch being a non approved 'interpreted" language.
>
> Second, I drafted a letter titled: "Rejecting an app with foundations in the Dynabook vision" and posted it to: https://devforums.apple.com/thread/46425
>
> At this time, this letter is not for public viewing since I want to have more discussion with Apple and the paid Apple developer community. It seems having public rage about the unfairness about what Apple is doing just makes Apple less receptive to dialog. I would ask the community not to cross post my letter anywhere until we have had more discussions with Apple. As an example this morning there was talk with a member of the App review team about having this matter ending up on Phil Shiller's desk.
>
> Third, I sent a copy of the letter to Steve Jobs.  He did respond.  Our incomplete conversation is private, no solution or decision has been reached, and due to Apple's earnings reports coming up next tuesday I don't foresee any activity on the matter until after that event.
>
> Fourth, I have interest & support from Dr Alan Kay, Dr Mitchel Resnick, and others, I think people do take the matter about the freedom to write applications in a language of their choosing and using a particular implementation (interpreted, JIT, compiled) seriously, so I hope movement with Apple on the general topic will occur shortly.
>
> Once Apple's management team has made a response I'm sure you will all hear about it.
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list


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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by johnmci
This morning there was a huge rumbling of email in my in-box.
The result accumulated in Wired's nicely written article which you can find at http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/04/apple-scratch-app

At this time I have no further information to offer and I'm awaiting further communication from Apple.
Alan Kay did contribute to the article, I did not, other than various quotes Wired lifted from my letter in the Apple Developer Forums.

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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
Obviously I'm collecting media links on the issue http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Scratch.html
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by johnmci
Morning, I've posted the letter I had posted to the Apple developer forums and sent to Steve Jobs at

http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Interpreters.html

I'll suggest there was some lifting of concept and quotes by Wired from letter.

As of this morning I have no further news, I have heard thru various sources that the issue is not dead yet,
 
So I wait.

On 2010-04-16, at 11:09 AM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app

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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse
Good!
John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone.

STef

On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:12 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Morning, I've posted the letter I had posted to the Apple developer forums and sent to Steve Jobs at
>
> http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Interpreters.html
>
> I'll suggest there was some lifting of concept and quotes by Wired from letter.
>
> As of this morning I have no further news, I have heard thru various sources that the issue is not dead yet,
>
> So I wait.
>
> On 2010-04-16, at 11:09 AM, John M McIntosh wrote:
>
>> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci

On 2010-04-21, at 1:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:

> Good!
> John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone.
>
> STef

Yes, I did conduct a magazine interview today where I ensured I did mentioned that ESUG funding was
instrumental in getting the foundations of Scratch (aka Squeak VM) onto the iPhone, otherwise it
would never have happened.

As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not allowed, but in the
future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even if it's hidden from view
or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.
 
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===========================================================================
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Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Phil B
In reply to this post by stephane ducasse
I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re:  
how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for  
Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in the  
platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out.  Wouldn't now  
be a good time to try to get some visibility on the larger issue?

Phil

On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:

> Good!
> John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported  
> this VM work for the iphone.
>
> STef
>
> On Apr 21, 2010, at 8:12 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:
>
>> Morning, I've posted the letter I had posted to the Apple developer  
>> forums and sent to Steve Jobs at
>>
>> http://www.mobilewikiserver.com/Interpreters.html
>>
>> I'll suggest there was some lifting of concept and quotes by Wired  
>> from letter.
>>
>> As of this morning I have no further news, I have heard thru  
>> various sources that the issue is not dead yet,
>>
>> So I wait.
>>
>> On 2010-04-16, at 11:09 AM, John M McIntosh wrote:
>>
>>> Let me give everyone an update on what is going on with Scratch.app
>>
>> --
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =====================================================================
>> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  
>> squeaker68882
>> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =
>> =====================================================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>


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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse
In reply to this post by johnmci

On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:26 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

>
> On 2010-04-21, at 1:13 PM, stephane ducasse wrote:
>
>> Good!
>> John in future version it may be good to mention that ESUG supported this VM work for the iphone.
>>
>> STef
>
> Yes, I did conduct a magazine interview today where I ensured I did mentioned that ESUG funding was
> instrumental in getting the foundations of Scratch (aka Squeak VM) onto the iPhone, otherwise it
> would never have happened.

Excellent!

> As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not allowed, but in the
> future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even if it's hidden from view
> or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.

Great! But nothing really new on that front.

Stef
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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

stephane ducasse
In reply to this post by Phil B

On Apr 21, 2010, at 10:29 PM, Phil (list) wrote:

> I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re: how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in the platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out.  Wouldn't now be a good time to try to get some visibility on the larger issue?

We were waiting to get news from the scratch story.
And also I'm not a really good politically correct person to write that so
any text to start with would help the board to produce a statement going in that direction.

Stef
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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by Phil B
Phil, last week I asked the smalltalk community (ESUG  etc), to stay claim and wait for Apple to think about it based on an email
exchange I had with Steve Jobs. At the time I thought it prudent to wait a further decision or statement.

Give that Wired publish Alan & my thoughts on the matter it's likely now time to consider what to do next.  
 
So this is NOT the fault of ESUG not being proactive, they were itching to do something.  

At the moment I believe they are collecting ideas how to approach the problem in a meaningful manner.
Suggestions are welcome.

 
On 2010-04-21, at 1:29 PM, Phil (list) wrote:

> I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re: how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in the platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out.  Wouldn't now be a good time to try to get some visibility on the larger issue?
>
> Phil

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Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
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Re: [squeak-dev] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Phil B
John & Stephane,

Fair enough and good to know that folks like ESUG will be weighing  
in.  I think you're on the right track re: gathering vocal support  
from the Scratch community that is constructive rather than bashing  
Apple, and have mainly been wondering why there wasn't a more  
concerted push from the Smalltalk and dynamic languages community in  
general talking about how policies like this would make iPhone OS a  
non-viable platform for them and push them to invest in alternatives  
such as Android to the exclusion of iPhone OS, rather than in addition  
to it.  I'm not sure how much additional impact that would have, but  
the endgame for many tools/languages on iPhone OS doesn't seem to be  
very far off and I'm not terribly optimistic on how this will be  
decided.

Thanks,
Phil


On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:48 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

> Phil, last week I asked the smalltalk community (ESUG  etc), to stay  
> claim and wait for Apple to think about it based on an email
> exchange I had with Steve Jobs. At the time I thought it prudent to  
> wait a further decision or statement.
>
> Give that Wired publish Alan & my thoughts on the matter it's likely  
> now time to consider what to do next.
>
> So this is NOT the fault of ESUG not being proactive, they were  
> itching to do something.
>
> At the moment I believe they are collecting ideas how to approach  
> the problem in a meaningful manner.
> Suggestions are welcome.
>
>
> On 2010-04-21, at 1:29 PM, Phil (list) wrote:
>
>> I've been surprised that I haven't seen any statement from ESUG re:  
>> how these policies negatively impact the future prospects for  
>> Smalltalk on the iPhone/iPad and the investments they've made in  
>> the platform to date that Apple seems willing to wipe out.  
>> Wouldn't now be a good time to try to get some visibility on the  
>> larger issue?
>>
>> Phil
>
> --
> =
> =
> =
> =
> =
> ======================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  
> squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://
> www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> =
> =
> =
> =
> =
> ======================================================================
>
>
>
>


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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

EstebanLM
In reply to this post by johnmci
>
> As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not =
> allowed, but in the=20
> future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even =
> if it's hidden from view
> or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.

so... I want to be clear... that means "Deimos" (and the adhoc vm) is
not being allowed to exist?
(right now, I'm working on deimos as if not change was introduced at
all, but I need to take all of this into account now :P)

Cheers,
Esteban



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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Stéphane Ducasse

On Apr 22, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:

>> As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not =
>> allowed, but in the=20
>> future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even =
>> if it's hidden from view
>> or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.
>
> so... I want to be clear... that means "Deimos" (and the adhoc vm) is not being allowed to exist?
> (right now, I'm working on deimos as if not change was introduced at all, but I need to take all of this into account now :P)
>
indeed.

I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
web page. Apple will get a bad press.

Stef
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Oscar Nierstrasz

Here's a nice apple skull:

http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg

You can buy a T-shirt too ;-)

- on

http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/product_info.php?products_id=1719&cPath=387_388&store=#

On Apr 22, 2010, at 15:22 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

>
> On Apr 22, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>
>>> As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not =
>>> allowed, but in the=20
>>> future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even =
>>> if it's hidden from view
>>> or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.
>>
>> so... I want to be clear... that means "Deimos" (and the adhoc vm) is not being allowed to exist?
>> (right now, I'm working on deimos as if not change was introduced at all, but I need to take all of this into account now :P)
>>
> indeed.
>
> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
> web page. Apple will get a bad press.
>
> Stef
> _______________________________________________
> Pharo-project mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project


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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Stéphane Ducasse
Excellent!

Stef

On Apr 22, 2010, at 3:44 PM, Oscar Nierstrasz wrote:

>
> Here's a nice apple skull:
>
> http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/images/int-ss-001-01.jpg
>
> You can buy a T-shirt too ;-)
>
> - on
>
> http://www.bluecollardistro.com/indietech/product_info.php?products_id=1719&cPath=387_388&store=#
>
> On Apr 22, 2010, at 15:22 , Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>>
>> On Apr 22, 2010, at 1:43 PM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
>>
>>>> As everyone should be aware Scratch as an interpreted language is not =
>>>> allowed, but in the=20
>>>> future Smalltalk as a language not on the short list is not allowed even =
>>>> if it's hidden from view
>>>> or ultimately cross compiled into an Objective-C application.
>>>
>>> so... I want to be clear... that means "Deimos" (and the adhoc vm) is not being allowed to exist?
>>> (right now, I'm working on deimos as if not change was introduced at all, but I need to take all of this into account now :P)
>>>
>> indeed.
>>
>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press.
>>
>> Stef
>> _______________________________________________
>> Pharo-project mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by EstebanLM

On 2010-04-22, at 4:43 AM, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:
> so... I want to be clear... that means "Deimos" (and the adhoc vm) is not being allowed to exist?
> (right now, I'm working on deimos as if not change was introduced at all, but I need to take all of this into account now :P)
>
> Cheers,
> Esteban

Well you can read the http://monotouch.net  news item and think it over.

Novell says: "we have heard little direct feedback from Apple"

Ya, been there...

Right now  C, C++, Obj-C, Javascript are the only allowable languages to code in.
Maybe they'll refine it a bit and add assembler, or maybe they will ditch the entire clause.

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Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

johnmci
In reply to this post by Stéphane Ducasse

On 2010-04-22, at 6:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:

> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
> web page. Apple will get a bad press.


Yes well I don't think that will achieve much.

Personally I think that the people here involved in the education & university domains need to write actual paper based letters on their
institution's letter head and mail them to the Apple education reps for their countries stating their concern about Apple's legal agreements
that appear to lockout the iPad for extraordinary use in the computer science curriculum.  

This involves passionately arguing for the ability to program, or teach in something other than C, C++, Obj-C or Javascript, I"m sure others are
more capable than me in composing that, as a software engineer my words aren't worth much, but I think computer science departments should
be voicing their concern on the direction where things appear to be going.

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Re: [Esug-list] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

Stéphane Ducasse
if we start to make the intersection between smalltalk and university and education
then we will end up to nothing. zero ok one or two, now individually
we can take the responsibility to say what we think about apple attitude and I will do it for myself.


Stef

On Apr 22, 2010, at 5:15 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

>
> On 2010-04-22, at 6:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press.
>
>
> Yes well I don't think that will achieve much.
>
> Personally I think that the people here involved in the education & university domains need to write actual paper based letters on their
> institution's letter head and mail them to the Apple education reps for their countries stating their concern about Apple's legal agreements
> that appear to lockout the iPad for extraordinary use in the computer science curriculum.  
>
> This involves passionately arguing for the ability to program, or teach in something other than C, C++, Obj-C or Javascript, I"m sure others are
> more capable than me in composing that, as a software engineer my words aren't worth much, but I think computer science departments should
> be voicing their concern on the direction where things appear to be going.
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh <[hidden email]>   Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Esug-list mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.esug.org/listinfo/esug-list


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Re: [Esug-list] Re: Talking to Steve Jobs about Scratch.

csrabak
Although it hurts to admit, I think Stef is downright on his take... OTOH, I feel we lost the bandwagon long time ago when Apple already sent the message by stopping supporting Squeak.
 
So, just to attempt to bring another idea to the debate, I suggest we reason this way:  presently this platform is getting a lot of attention and we (lets define our Smalltalk + Scratch interest group here¹) saw some prospects for some uses of it which Apple could not conceive a way of its business model without forbidding it.

It is their platform their business model!  Is like we are trying again to show how nerdy and rebel we are as were the folks that got the PS to run Linux. . .

my 0.019999....

--

[1] In another post I can post my take about dynamic languages in general if interest remains on this subject)

Em 22/04/2010 15:43, Stéphane Ducasse < [hidden email] > escreveu:
if we start to make the intersection between smalltalk and university and education
then we will end up to nothing. zero ok one or two, now individually
we can take the responsibility to say what we think about apple attitude and I will do it for myself.


Stef

On Apr 22, 2010, at 5:15 PM, John M McIntosh wrote:

>
> On 2010-04-22, at 6:22 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
>
>> I still naively believe that if all the programmers of the dynamic language put a logo with apple and a black skull on their
>> web page. Apple will get a bad press.
>
>
> Yes well I don't think that will achieve much.
>
> Personally I think that the people here involved in the education & university domains need to write actual paper based letters on their
> institution's letter head and mail them to the Apple education reps for their countries stating their concern about Apple's legal agreements
> that appear to lockout the iPad for extraordinary use in the computer science curriculum.  
>
> This involves passionately arguing for the ability to program, or teach in something other than C, C++, Obj-C or Javascript, I"m sure others are
> more capable than me in composing that, as a software engineer my words aren't worth much, but I think computer science departments should
> be voicing their concern on the direction where things appear to be going.
>
> --
> ===========================================================================
> John M. McIntosh    Twitter:  squeaker68882
> Corporate Smalltalk Consulting Ltd.  http://www.smalltalkconsulting.com
> ===========================================================================
>
>
>
>
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