The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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You're saying Smalltalk organizations are too focussed on making money? I've heard that, too. It sounds very odd to me. I thought these organizations were created for the love of the language. Am I too naive? Then you have failed. Virtually every mention of Pharo on the web is directly linked to Smalltalk. In the public consciousness, there is little or no distinction between Pharo and Smalltalk. Trying to force this distinction, I believe, is a mistake; it's futile. If Pharo is a new language disconnected from Smalltalk, then it loses whatever cachet Smalltalk has. Smalltalk already has a ton of references on the web; it just needs to be cleaned up a bit. Hence, Smalltalk Renaissance. Moreover, we can fight the museum syndrome through branding and education. Smalltalk is already a positive marque; it's renown for its influence in language design, for example. Pharo has to start from scratch in building its brand. It's more challenging. So far, it has ridden on Smalltalk's coattails. Continuing on this path is the smarter move. Smalltalk Renaissance is also about the community, as I've already explained. Yes, getting Smalltalk into US (and Canadian) schools is vitally important. I haven't yet determined SRP's role in this regard. |
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On Pharo being a "new language"... I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax that extend Smalltalk, making it a superset of Smalltalk rather than just another dialect. I would be very cautious about doing this. One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk language is its pure simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got absolutely correct. You change this at your own peril. If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo environment (including the tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things. From "Alien": ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. LAMBERT: You admire it. ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or delusions of morality. Generalissimo |
Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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> On 30 Dec 2014, at 13:27, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >> Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk. > > On Pharo being a "new language"... > > I presume you mean that Pharo will have additional new features and syntax > that extend Smalltalk, making it a /superset/ of Smalltalk rather than just > another /dialect/. I would be very cautious about doing this. > > One of the most desirable qualities of the Smalltalk /language/ is its pure > simplicity. This is one of the things that the Xerox PARC team got > absolutely correct. *You change this at your own peril.* > > If, on the other hand, you mean that the Pharo /environment/ (including the > tooling and class libraries) will evolve and grow and improve, then you > can't really call Pharo a "new language." Do not conflate the two things. > > From "Alien": > > ASH: You still don't understand what you're dealing with, do you? Perfect > organism. Its structural perfection is matched only by its hostility. > LAMBERT: You admire it. > ASH: I admire its purity. A survivor...unclouded by conscience, remorse, or > delusions of morality. > \ I would advise you to not waste everyones time. Please start DOING, stop TALKING. Keep in mind that you have until now not done *anything at all*, yet you know exactly what everyone else is supposed to be doing. Marcus |
Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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In reply to this post by horrido
Some features: - Slots One may argue that these are extensions. But to me there are what makes it different and powerful. I am using VW PUL at times but I prefer Pharo by far when it comes to the development experience. Pharo also allows one to master from the metal up to the UI. Not many contenders on that front. As a software engineer, it matters to me. I hate black magic happening. With Pharo I can make sense of things. I do feel empowered when using Pharo. There is this irrational inner joy associated with elegance. I feel it. I like it. It is what makes me choose it over more mainstream tech. We 'll see how far this will lead me and my business. Choosing something is saying no to other things as there is only so much time available. Mastery takes time and dedication. So be it. Phil > |
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Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption.
Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a mistake. |
Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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This has been discussed ad lubitum in the past. Now, as "Pharo is yours", one can do as he pleases. That is also why open source is great. |
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In reply to this post by abergel
> There is something that I cannot understand: What is the goal of pushing Smalltalk that way? I am certainly not trying to do so. > > In the way I see the World, Pharo is not Smalltalk, but inspired by Smalltalk. Actually, I would be tempted to say slightly inspired by Smalltalk as Pharo is taking a different path. > > Having Smalltalk low on the ranking does not bother me much. Having Pharo listed would be great although. Yes!!! This is long ago that I decided to stop to fight against the "new is cool" trends. Stef |
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
Such hostility!
If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my own way. I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting constantly. I'm collecting and curating for the Resources page, and I shall be doing the same for essays and articles shortly (can you be patient??). I'm actively trying to sign up supporters for the SRP, and I am about ready to contact a major CEO. Next month, I will be investigating the Toronto District School Board to see how we may get Smalltalk into the classroom (I have a contact). I have spent countless hours working on this campaign, and I have a great deal more things to do in the New Year, as I've clearly outlined in a previous post. I'm not sure what it is you think I should be doing. What "everyone else" is doing is on the technical front, working on tools and code. As I've already clearly elaborated, this is not enough. I'm trying a different approach to promoting Smalltalk, one that is based on PR, marketing and branding. Let me turn the question around: What are you doing on the PR front? |
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In reply to this post by philippeback
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Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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In reply to this post by horrido
I am sure you get that often, or not?
Honestly: Tweets: 7 Followers: 8 Following: 0 You are definitely seeing a different reality than me. Marcus |
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Relax people. Remember the stages of team formation: - forming So, this is good. What is the problem with what Robert is doing? Let's use Renaissance as the French Renaissance. We need more PR. Not for cool or new. But as backing up our ass when the C level guys need reassurance. I have my little side project that will go out in Q1 on that front. Phil Le 30 déc. 2014 14:45, "Marcus Denker" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
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Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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In reply to this post by horrido
It does not matter how one calls Pharo, the only people who care are smalltalk developers and they are not that many out there anyway. Pharo tries to attract all developers but in order to do that in order for it become more popular it has to play the rules and the rules are simple, active support, libraries and documentation. Take a look at your TIOBE INDEX you think that any of those top 10 , top 50 or top 100 languages got up there out of accident, or maybe out of good PR , because people tweet about them ? Hell no ! Java , Javascript and C++ are some of the most hated languages out there. Python and Ruby some of the most loved . The only common thing these language have is their huge libraries , massive support and documentation projects . This is the real competition to Pharo becoming more popular. Pharo has been progressing very well, not because people tweet about it but because it has more tools, better libraries and active effort to expand and organise documentation. It has people who do the hard work. Sure tweeting gives it more exposure but in the end nobody is going buy the PR hype , we all know PR is bullshit if you dont have a quality product to sell. How Pharo will compete with Python if it cant offer a similar amount of what Python offers if not more like all the other Python competitors ? Pharo does not need a marketing team, it needs more contributors . So does every other language that needs to expand. On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 3:10 PM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the |
Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
> On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:45, Marcus Denker <[hidden email]> wrote: > > >> On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:37, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> Such hostility! > > I am sure you get that often, or not? > >> >> If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But >> there's no need to attack me. I'm only trying to help and contribute in my >> own way. >> >> I am, in fact, doing a great deal. In terms of PR, I've created a Facebook >> page, created a Google+ page, created a Twitter feed and I'm tweeting >> constantly > > Honestly: > > https://twitter.com/smalltalkrenais > > Tweets: 7 > Followers: 8 > Following: 0 > > You are definitely seeing a different reality than me. Just to compare the scale: Tweets: 3266 Followers: 1077 or google plus… of course it needs a genius like you do set up a google plus account: http://google.com/+Pharo-projectOrg Marcus |
Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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In reply to this post by horrido
> On 30 Dec 2014, at 14:10, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Which is why I've chosen Pharo as the public "face" of Smalltalk. It has the > most active community, and the best chance of widespread adoption. > > Still, to call it a "new language", to say that "it's not Smalltalk", is a > mistake. More PR, more people doing marketing is good, we'll see how it goes, I wish you good luck. However, about this 'Pharo is (not) Smalltalk', you've just proven our point: we deliberately distance ourselves somewhat from classic Smalltalk. Both because most people think Smalltalk is dead and a relic of the past and we want to avoid that negative connotation, and because the next thing always is 'No, don't do that, you can't change anything'. Pharo was started precisely because we want the freedom to change things where necessary (on all levels, VM, language, compiler, runtime, libraries, concepts, tools, ..) - and we have been doing that quite successfully for years now. Do we deny our heritage, no, but we don't stress it. This is a choice that we made. Sven |
Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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In reply to this post by philippeback
>Some features:
>- Slots
>- Opal compiler >- Enhanced collections >- Removal of a lot of old craft >- Nativeboost >- TxText >- GToolkit >- Better infrastructure >- Command line handlers >- JSON support >One may argue that these are extensions. But to me there are what makes it different and powerful.
>I am using VW PUL at times but I prefer Pharo by far when it comes to the development experience.
>Pharo also allows one to master from the metal up to the
UI. Not many contenders on that front. As a software engineer, it
matters to me. I hate black magic >happening. With Pharo I can make sense
of things.
>I do feel empowered when using Pharo.
>Not so with other languages and tools where I feel like a user not a (co)-owner. >There is this irrational inner joy associated with
elegance. I feel it. I like it. It is what makes me choose it over more
mainstream tech. We 'll see how far this >will lead me and my business.
>Choosing something is saying no to other things as there is
only so much time available. Mastery takes time and dedication. So be
it.
>Phil I can understand some of the arguments of both sides but one has to take into consideration that not all users are familiar with Smalltalk and not everyone uses Smalltalk for the same reasons. For some, what you see as Pharo's strengths are seen by others as its main weaknesses. Slots? So what? I have yet to see a use for it that makes my life way easier as a developer. Opal compiler? As long as it compiles, why should I care? If you're into compilers and want to experiment, that's a plus I admit it. If you're not, who cares? Enhanced collections? You're always one package away from those with Cincom Public Repository. Removal of a lot of old craft? Yeah, that one is an argument when you compare Pharo against Squeak, especially on the Morphic side. But dead wood in VisualWorks or VAST, I don't see much! NativeBoost? If you can demonstrate that Pharo is faster than VisualWorks or easier to interface with external ressources, I'll buy it! TxText & GToolkit : as I said, you can always get (or port) the equivalent with VAST & VisualWorks. Infrastructure? Okay, automated builds & tests but so what? If Dolphin Smalltalk works fine right out of the box, why should I be concerned with how it works/compiles/tests if I want to *use* it and not *develop* it? Do you really care about how DB/2 compiles or your priority is that it does the job? Command line & JSON : as always, you have have that elsewhere for most products. I'll admit it's fun to know how things work under the hood but for most of us, it's simply irrelevant. I've worked on huge projects and, most of the time, clients want specific features & results. I've had to work with VAST lots of times and on most occasions, the rationale of that choice was pretty simple for the client : it had "out of the box" DB/2 & COBOL & MQSeries support as well as *reports* (never underestimate their love of reports!). On other occasions, the client preferred VisualWorks because of portability and speed. If you'd tell me you're into music & MIDI, I'd recommend Squeak. At one time, if you had told me you needed a cheap native Smalltalk development environment, I would have recommended Dolphin. I don't believe in "ours is sooooo much better" arguments. My favorite Smalltalk is VW but for some projects, I would just not use it! I'm very familiar with VAST but for some projects, I just wouldn't use it! The same way I've mostly preferred DB/2 over other RDBMS but, for some jobs, DB/2 is simply not the answer, as much as I love it! The same way GemStone/S sucks for some jobs! My main reason to love Pharo is it's extremely rapid pace of new features and the fact that the Pharo community hasn't constrained itself into the "we must be backward or Smalltalk-80 compatible" mindset. That's a plus if you already know Smalltalk and you want to experiment new ideas but if you're a newcomer, I would certainly recommend another Smalltalk to learn the language. Wanna know why? I spend my time, each & every night on IRC answering private questions about "how come this code I found in a Smalltalk tutorial/package/fileOut doesn't work/load in Pharo". See? For a newcomer, Pharo is often times waaaay too far from Squeak and/or Smalltalk-80. There are TONS of snippets/code/tutorials/packages/fileOut out there that expect, somehow, that your environment is a close cousin of Smalltalk-80. There a re tons of packages on squeaksource.com that don't load into Pharo without some work that a newbie cannot do. There are tons of code in the Cincom Public Repository or Dolphin goodies or VAST goodies that don't load into Pharo without much work, way too much work for a newbie... Besides, most newbies want to be able to build *something* and then play with it. If you can show me that you can build a screen with a few widgets in Pharo *faster* than you can do it in VAST, VW or Dolphin, I'll be convinced. We musn't forget that not all users of Pharo are familiar with "Pharo's dialect" and are able to correct/fix/understand the differences between what they expect to load and what Pharo can actually load. Add to that code management, package dependencies, old/contradictory documentation/terminology found everywhere (Universes, packages, fileOuts, Bundles, Applications, Pundle, Configuration Maps, Monticello, Metacello, GitHub) and you will easily see why, lots of times, newcomers just give up. "I just want to build a f*cking window with a few fields (firstname, lastname, date of birth), a list (marital status), a checkbox and a text field for comments and it takes eons to build and tons of code" is a comment I regularly get. In VW and VAST & Dolphin, that simple task is a 5 minute job. Out of the box. "I just want to f*cking read data from a database [insert favorite database here] and it's so complicated" is a comment I regularly get. In VW and VAST , that simple task is a 5 minute job. Out of the box. I can assure you that, from questions I have every day, being a newbie in Smalltalk and using Pharo is not an easy thing. So let's stop arguing that WhateverSmalltalk is better than AnotherSmalltalk. It might be in some cases for some jobs but in the meantime, one of our (the Smalltalk Community) big problem is attracting new people to Smalltalk and make them stay with us. The paradigm shift of pure OO and development tools & the "image thing" is a lot of concepts that aren't easy to grasp if all you've known is Java, C++ or C#. Documentation is the key. And on that side, Pharo got it right. There will never be too many PBE or kilon's videos! Let's not forget that what is obvious to us can sometimes appear (or be) eons away for a newbie! -----------------Benoit St-Jean Yahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamneth Blogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) |
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In reply to this post by philippeback
+ 1000
Just add a filter if you get annoyed :)
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In reply to this post by horrido
On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote: Such hostility! Now often I post a link to Eric S Raymond's "how to ask smart questions" but this interface is difficult, could you google it. If I have no idea what I'm talking about, then you may enlighten me. But
This is great to hear of these positive actions.
Everyone contributes in their own way. It will be good to add more PR, but this needs to be lead by those technical-doers who have spent the last five years creating their vision for Pharo. (myself I am a newcomer also) -Ben
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In reply to this post by Marcus Denker-4
My Twitter account is less than 3 days old. How many tweets do you expect in that time period?
And I struggle to find things to tweet about. I'm not accustomed to this. Maybe you can cut me just a wee bit of slack? |
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In reply to this post by philippeback
I'm Richard. You're thinking of my brother Robert.
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Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program
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In reply to this post by horrido
>Such hostility! +1000 No need for that, we should ALL be ONE family. Some people should *seriously* get a second cup of coffee in the morning before they hit *Send* or even write a single line of comment. Calm down people! ----------------- Benoit St-JeanYahoo! Messenger: bstjean Twitter: @BenLeChialeux Pinterest: benoitstjean IRC: lamnethBlogue: endormitoire.wordpress.com "A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero". (A. Einstein) |
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