The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

Ben Coman wrote

Repost (it was rejected as from the wrong account)

On Wednesday, December 31, 2014, Ben Coman  wrote:
> Btw, can you drop the movie quotations.  It comes across a bit high-handed
> - like it's trying to teach something - but I  can't work out your implied
> meaning.   Someone else's words can only ever be an approximation.  You own
> words are better.

Ben Coman wrote

On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
> I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
> I think Sven's response addressed these the best.

Ben Coman wrote

On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:56 AM, Aaron Rosenzweig <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> For a long time, the term GNU didn’t mean much to me. I knew it was “the
> free software foundation” and was related to “CopyLeft” which is a bit
> tongue-in-cheek… meaning that free software should always be free and open
> source… the opposite of a “CopyRight”
>
> One day, I stopped, I looked up GNU.
>
> The “G” stands for “GNU” so it is recursive as in:
> GNUNUNUNUNUNUNU….
>
> So what about the “NU” part? that stands for “Not Unix”
>
> So GNU is an emphatic statement screaming that the free software
> foundation is “Not UNIX” !!!
>

Interesting that in parallel I came to use the same example :)


>
> I was shocked at first… because to me they are at the base of UNIX. The
> GCC compiler, everything… But what they really mean is that when they
> started, UNIX was very pricey and only for large corporations, not for
> hobbyists, not for thinkers and entrepreneurs. Their software created the
> foundation for Linux which technically isn’t Unix but is “Unix-Like” - and
> very similar to SVR4 Unix.
>
> “Smalltalk” is a great name - you can learn all the syntax on the back of
> an index card. It’s “small” get it? But it also collides with “picking up
> chicks” and is somewhat confusing to do internet searches with. Not too bad
> but… “Pharo” does sound cooler.
>
>


> You are reaching out to the Pharo community and asking them to embrace
> “Smalltalk.” They don’t want to.
>

Thats a bit strong for me :).   But the next is certainly true.


> They don’t deny the lineage but they desire their own identity.
>
>


> Maybe instead of “Smalltalk Renaissance” you coin “PNS” - “Pharo Not
> Smalltalk” or… make the P stand for “PNS” so it is recursive.
> PNSNSNSNSNS….
>


I don't think its fair to suggest Richard change his message (though I note
your humour, I just want to be clear to support Richard here).  His stated
scope is wider than Pharo. Its just that Pharo is a nice poster child.  Now
"The Renaissance" produced many new schools of art, each a re-birth based
in its past but evolving to something new. I think Pharo aligns with that
interpretation, and it would be great if such is compatible with Richard's
goals.

Now while Pharo wants to avoid the constraint of "being Smalltalk" - all
the great work of the the last four or more years has not shifted it
significantly away from being identifiable as "a" Smalltalk.  I expect in
practice (looking in from outside) that to be the case for a while.



> Hahaha, then again, try to pronounce PNS…. doh!
>
> In my mind… for a language / platform to pick up steam two things need to
> happen:
>
> 1) A consulting company needs to “kick butt” and “take names” using this
> technology
>
> 2) A charismatic speaker / author needs to create modern books and run
> around the country giving appearances and presentations.
>
> That is what happened with Rails which is in many ways a “Smalltalk
> without an image.” So it’s not like the minimal syntax and dynamic nature
> of Smalltalk is lost on the world… that is primarily what Rails developers
> relate with.
>
> With Ruby on Rails we have 37Signals as the consulting company that “did
> stuff” and cut out Java developers from projects.
>
> With Ruby on Rails we have Dave Thomas as the author and main charismatic
> figure at any programming conference he attends.
>
> It’s cool and it feels real. That was the secret formula to success.
>   *Aaron Rosenzweig* / Chat 'n Bike <http://www.chatnbike.com>
> *e:*  [hidden email]  *t:*  (301) 956-2319   [image: Chat 'n Bike]  [image:
> Chat 'n Bike]
>
> On Jan 1, 2015, at 6:26 PM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from
> it,
> you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
>
> Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
> it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
> However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
> completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
>
>
>
> Ben Coman wrote
>
> On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
>
> I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
> I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>
>

sebastian@flowingconcept.com wrote

Richard, some people choose to face it and some to evade it. It’s okay.

I actually see as healthy that people try bold strategies aligned with the missions they embrace.

And I also see that is okay the community as a whole tries many strategies because concentrating is too risky and eventually from quantity comes quality.

Nature loves to try everything and select what works best selecting in retrospective.

The things that end up providing good results will have appreciation and replication in the next generation and the things that results so-so would be part of the story because even if reality wanted to go other direction, that people followed their mission and made their contribution.

So time will tell.

Recently I’ve answered in Quora this question What is the most influential software product or programming language that was ever created? <https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most-influential-software-product-or-programming-language-that-was-ever-created/answer/Sebastian-Sastre?__snids__=868638797&__nsrc__=1&__filter__=all> and I cited the interview to Steve Jobs where he is telling the story of how he was inspired by seeing Smalltalk demoed in the Alto. After that, he knew how to create the right UX in the MacIntosh.

That story is so crucial and inspiring that Malcom Gladwell <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malcolm_Gladwell> wrote in the New Yorker about it <http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/05/16/creation-myth>. Painfully enough for us, not mentioning Smalltalk in his writing which was the artifact at the epicenter of that inspiration (I really wonder why it wasn’t mentioned, is really weird). But even if it wasn’t mentioned, it doesn’t matter, not even Gladwell can re-write history and Smalltalk had and has a protagonist role in it.

Given that Smalltalk has actually inspired Steve at that moment in time and the consequences in our culture, the impact is so massive that I am surprised that anyone would not to chose to embrace it with arms, legs and teeth.

But, as said, that’s okay. The Multiverse has space for everybody. Possibilities are more abundant than ever.

I think that everybody’s contribution is valuable, the Pharo community in particular, and that we are very lucky in having you wanting to do some PR for Smalltalk in general and Pharo in particular.

Lastly, I don’t see Smalltalk as the ultimate language but for me is the one that is less far away from it.

Until that utopian language of the future gets real, you’ll probably found me stuck to Smalltalk :)




> On Jan 1, 2015, at 9:26 PM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I think if Smalltalk has a negative connotation, you don't run away from it,
> you change it! That's what Smalltalk Renaissance is all about.
>
> Is changing a negative perception easier or harder than running away from
> it? That is a very interesting question, and there is no obvious answer.
> However, as I indicated previously, your attempt to run away from it has
> completely, totally, and utterly failed. Something to think about.
>
>
>
> Ben Coman wrote
>> On Thursday, January 1, 2015, Ben Coman wrote:
>>> I refer to the two paragraphs following "On pharo being a new language".
>>> I think Sven's response addressed these the best.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797582.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>

Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..

Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.

a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing usage of the technology but not essential.

b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform not a langauge ), it is question of :

Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its usable frameworks:

    * Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.

   * Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a  1-3 hr work with documentation given.  Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.

Pharo Platform:

   * The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks.

    * Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.

    * The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its platform progressing together.

PR:

    * Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.

   * I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground

   

Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens before the year runs out.

On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:01 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:

Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a
lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great
programming language in the future.

From a wide survey done for Openstack:

"the top four business drivers, according to the user survery, were Ability to Innovate, Open Technology, Cost Savings and Avoiding Vendor Lock-In. Ability to innovate is ranked first"

This message can be showcased in examples of Pharo deployments and direct user reports.

Sudhakar krishnamachari

On Jan 2, 2015, at 11:48 AM, S Krish <[hidden email]> wrote:

Wishes for a great new year for Pharo.. !..

Subjective topics are the easiest to waste one's effort on, though are essential in their own way, if we restrain ourselves. Pharo to me is headed in the right direction with the right evangelists at its core. There should not be a dilution to it in any pursuit.

a) PR and spreading the awareness is important to a pursuit of increasing usage of the technology but not essential.

b) For a software platform ( again I say Pharo / Smalltalk is a platform not a langauge ), it is question of :

Success is not from Pharo Platform per se but from its usable frameworks:

    * Seek success organically, evolve to be the best fit for enterprise programming, this can be through any of Seaside, Teapot+Zn, Glamour toolkit, Jun, Open CL/R other interfaces, R Pi custom OS, etc.. or as in mega framework like OpenStack in Pharo weaving in existing elements of the mega framework for now.. et als. Make the framework use simple, scalable, flexible that it is viral in its growth for the programmers.

   * Small business application ( not helloworld ) should be say a  1-3 hr work with documentation given.  Rails promised that hiding its complexity to user discovery but by then the user is hooked on enough to provide his inputs / improve the framework. I liked the Teapot, Amber need to push more around that kernel to make it scale upto creating a full application framework deployable in 3 hrs.

Pharo Platform:

   * The platform offers stable and guaranteed behavior across fundamentals of operations (all of CPU/ Mem/ OS resource use et als ), security specially that ensures programmers can easily convince the CEO/CTO's to allow their pet projects to be integrated. Gaps will exist and programmers will fulfill it and grow the frameworks. Make the users feel as both "winners" and "owners" in using the frameworks. Yes we need visionaries to lead those frameworks.

    * Make it as modular as possible to be able to use it just plain commandline, with or without UI and its varied tools but with any of the packages with dependencies that are well structured and easily updateable.

    * The platform if it targets the enterprise will have to target enterprise interfaces viz: DBMS, MQ, WS , deployment through easy integration with Apache webserver or other common platforms. This is an incremental goal driven by state of Pharo now and overal ecosystem of its platform progressing together.

PR:

    * Seek to push what you have to others through PR, at best this can only be adjunct to the above, will probably yield some benefit but will not be the raison-de-etre of the success of a product. Infact one part of PR I believe works ( not something many intellectuals prefer) create sub-forums/ sub-committees and make more and more people be part of it.

   * I would much rather prefer having a website that showcases each enterprise use like in Seaside the web application framework. But what the seaside site lacks is a complete brief on deploying a web app end to end with DBMS integration, easy css, js, et als integrated in 1 - 3 hrs, fairly customized to my first prototype I require. Similar focussed sites should exist that can be simple 1-2-3 instruction for the helloworld and scale up quickly within a day to a workable app customized for requirement. Most important leverage as much of pre-existing skills as in HTML, CSS, JS, MQ, DBMS, ORM et als.. rather than create a new learning curve of the developer. The kernel should be a killer feature as in Seaside/ Teapot but they need to keep the continuum.. while taking the high ground

   

Let me put my hands on some of these efforts and then talk more. I am greatly interested in pushing Pharo to enterprise use atleast for a personal pursuit, let this new year resolution be to see that happens before the year runs out.

On Fri, Jan 2, 2015 at 10:01 AM, horrido <[hidden email]> wrote:

Smalltalk isn't the ultimate language for me, either. I happen to like Go a
lot. And it's conceivable that someone may come up with another truly great
programming language in the future.

the "reformation of software engineering" is a bit loaded.

see http://semat.org

As a funny thing, they also have Essence.

phil

I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing
with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing
letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to
complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of
ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more
calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day,
*every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single
penny.

Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my
wife!

Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted.
/Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive
and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly
understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.

This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in
popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign.
No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and
energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.

The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in  Mad Men
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men>  . 



--
View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797675.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

You
Le 3 janv. 2015 15:20, "horrido" <[hidden email]> a écrit :
>
> I've learned that mounting a PR campaign is *a full-time job*. I'm dealing
> with Twitter and Facebook and Google+ and LinkedIn and Tumblr. I'm writing
> letters to a CEO and the Smalltalk Foundation and others. I'm struggling to
> complete and publish my Amber tutorial article. I'm *constantly* thinking of
> ways to improve the campaign, our websites, and my message. I burn more
> calories in the cranium that I do at the gym! I put in 6-8 hours a day,
> *every day*, on the computer working on this. And I don't get paid a single
> penny.
>
> Moreover, I have to do all this while *working around my commitments* to my
> wife!
>
> Now, I understand why such a PR campaign has never before been attempted.
> /Who among you has the time???/ Only a retiree, perhaps. Who has the drive
> and motivation to go through all this sh*t? Only someone who truly
> understands the value of PR, marketing, and branding.
>
> This is why I don't think the Smalltalk Foundation will succeed in
> popularizing Smalltalk. No one there is capable of mounting a PR campaign.
> No one there /thinks/ like a marketing person. No one there has the time and
> energy. Their organization is not agile enough, not adaptable enough.
>

Ah ah. How wrong.

I 'd just say that ruffling feathers of people will not help the cause.

On the marketing side, people aren't buying technology. They are buying its benefits. As in "no need for a drill, what I want is getting the picture frame on the wall".

As such Pharo/Smalltalk or whatever has no specific benefit. What is the benefit is the kind of people who are attracted to it and use it.

Phil

> The kind of person you need is exactly the kind you see in  Mad Men
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Men>  .
>

Mad Men is a bit over these days of disintermediation. At one point they tried to sell us radium enriched underwear...

Just have been closing deals for 15 years on my own. Good marketing is about being an object of interest so that leads do6 trust you and are willing to go for added value.

Phil

>
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://forum.world.st/The-Smalltalk-Renaissance-Program-tp4797112p4797675.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>