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horrido

The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog have heard about the Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all future SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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James Ladd

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

Hi Richard,

Very glad to see SRP, you know Ill support it.

- James.

stephane ducasse-2

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by horrido

for the web you should also talk about

Seaside

Seaside-Rest

Stef

On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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Ben Coman-3

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by horrido

On Friday, 23 January 2015 12:32:11 UTC+8, Richard Eng wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog have heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all future SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st/" rel="nofollow" style="font-size:12.8000001907349px" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

I wish you success. I'll do what I can.

cheers -ben

horrido

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by stephane ducasse-2

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:

for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="MKOLkcPMKQgJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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stephane ducasse-2

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

On 23 Jan 2015, at 15:15, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

pfffffff

Since you know more than us no need to ask feedback no need to reply

Stef

horrido

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

I don't understand your response. I was merely relating information that I've gathered.

Moreover, is my observation about the current trend toward client side incorrect? It doesn't take a genius to see what's transpiring in the IT world. The social media and IT press are quite clear.

This is a discussion forum. We are here to discuss.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 10:19:58 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:

On 23 Jan 2015, at 15:15, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="cj5B3jI66N8J" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

pfffffff

Since you know more than us no need to ask feedback no need to reply

Stef

Ben Coman-3

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

I haven't done much web programming so I'm probably not qualified to answer, but I understand security, and the problem with client side is that its crackable. I think you still need a strong server side for access control and sanitise data.

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning

Do you have a link we can see in context?

the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

EstebanLM

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

On 23 Jan 2015, at 16:48, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

I haven't done much web programming so I'm probably not qualified to answer, but I understand security, and the problem with client side is that its crackable. I think you still need a strong server side for access control and sanitise data.

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning

Do you have a link we can see in context?

which maintainer? Avi (the creator) said that a lot of time ago… but a lot of time ago he’s not the maintainer either.

People maintaining Seaside are very active and I doubt they think is less relevant nowadays… but of course, it has to be evolved.

Esteban

the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

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horrido

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

This was a private email. I'm not sure he'd appreciate me revealing the correspondence.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 11:12:17 UTC-5, Esteban Lorenzano wrote:

On 23 Jan 2015, at 16:48, Ben Coman <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="OQ9Izpn1xu4J" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">benjamin...@...> wrote:

I haven't done much web programming so I'm probably not qualified to answer, but I understand security, and the problem with client side is that its crackable. I think you still need a strong server side for access control and sanitise data.

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning

Do you have a link we can see in context?

which maintainer? Avi (the creator) said that a lot of time ago… but a lot of time ago he’s not the maintainer either.
People maintaining Seaside are very active and I doubt they think is less relevant nowadays… but of course, it has to be evolved.

Esteban

the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

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Martin Bähr

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by Ben Coman-3

Excerpts from Ben Coman's message of 2015-01-23 16:48:51 +0100:
> I haven't done much web programming so I'm probably not qualified to
> answer, but I understand security, and the problem with client side is that
> its crackable. I think you still need a strong server side for access
> control and sanitise data.

yes, a strong server side is needed, but that server can be accessed through a
simple well defined API instead of a hodgepodge of generated html and
javascript with the occasional ajax request thrown in the mix.

doing html generation in the browser makes the server easier to secure because
you can clearly define what needs securing. while writing your frontend you
then don't need to worry about security at all, because the client can't access
secure areas without checks by the API.

when you develop frontend through code and templates in the server, at every
turn you need to watch to not accidentally expose private data to the client.

i am in that very situation. i have pretty much sworn off generating html in the
backend. as a result i have no use for the bulk of features that seaside, aida
or iliad provide.

i am currently working on building a website with zinc only in the backend (and
angular.js for the frontend)

greetings, martin.

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horrido

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by horrido

Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases for server side are starting to drop off.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 09:15:43 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNG1xFBZj8IE-cHPr7JhqK6GBS_sqQ';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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NorbertHartl

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by Ben Coman-3

For me this is not a decision between seaside and amber. You need them both because they serve different purposes.

In a javascript client you are free to do everything in the browser and you can easily use all of the modern javascript frameworks. If it comes to data exchange with a backend you need a dedicated HTTP interface where you can retrieve and store data. Usually this will be at least one http handler per object type. In the backend you start parsing the request, build logic what to invoke, looking up the objects in disguise that are treated. And this you do for every single action you need to provide for the javascript client. It is tedious and error prone. The benefit is that you will end up with a rich http interface to your business logic and you enabled machine to machine use of your API at the same time.

Seaside on the other hand shortcuts all of the javascript side serialization, sending of requests, parsing etc. The moment you define the html in the backend all actions are created at the time they are being rendered to html. For every action there is a callback that can be invoked by a web browser directly. Regardless how many pages you do it is always the same, you never have the need to treat anything about the communication part. And it is very well suited to build complex html interfaces with ease. On the security perspective I would rank seaside very high. The downside of it is that it is rather cumbersome to have pretty urls and all state is stored on the server which makes a session huge and scaling an effort.

In short form I would say that for data intensive, complex HTML interfaces where it is not important to have pretty URLs seaside is the way to go. If you need tons of javascript functionality on the client, data exchange is not too complex and you need a HTTP/REST interface anyway than using amber is a good option. If the behaviour of the client is more complex you still can use Tide [1] with amber as it implements an important functionality of seaside for amber.

Most of the time it is rather easy to decide which kind of client you need to build.

Norbert

[1] https://github.com/tide-framework/tide

Am 23.01.2015 um 16:48 schrieb Ben Coman <[hidden email]>:

I haven't done much web programming so I'm probably not qualified to answer, but I understand security, and the problem with client side is that its crackable. I think you still need a strong server side for access control and sanitise data.

Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning

Do you have a link we can see in context?

the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

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Martin Bähr

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by horrido

Excerpts from Richard Eng's message of 2015-01-23 17:40:02 +0100:
> Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will
> always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases
> for server side are starting to drop off.

i would not say use cases for server side development are dropping off, but
they are changing. for my own website i can get away with zinc because it is
very small and because i am interested in learning. there is still plenty of
room for more feature-ful frameworks for more complex server side development
needs even without the html generation part. instead of html, json needs to be
generated, databases, business logic, etc, still remain...

greetings, martin.

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Ben Coman-3

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by horrido

Thanks Martin. I see where you are coming from. btw, maybe these two frameworks fit your philosophy...

* Flow - https://github.com/flow-stack/flow

* Tide - https://github.com/tide-framework/tide

cheers -ben

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases for server side are starting to drop off.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 09:15:43 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:
Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

--
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Angel Java Lopez

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

I'm a newbie in these topics...

But, why mention Amber only for client-side?

Any interest in Smalltalk compiled/transpiled to JavaScript and running server-side? I'm doing some pet experiments, but I'm not sure if it could be interesting for others

Angel "Java" Lopez

@ajlopez

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Martin. I see where you are coming from. btw, maybe these two frameworks fit your philosophy...
* Flow - https://github.com/flow-stack/flow
* Tide - https://github.com/tide-framework/tide
cheers -ben

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases for server side are starting to drop off.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 09:15:43 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:
Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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Ben Coman-3

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 1:18 AM, Angel Java Lopez <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm a newbie in these topics...

But, why mention Amber only for client-side?

Any interest in Smalltalk compiled/transpiled to JavaScript and running server-side? I'm doing some pet experiments, but I'm not sure if it could be interesting for others

Angel "Java" Lopez
@ajlopez

I wont be looking into it anytime soon myself, but an interesting concept.

NorbertHartl

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by Angel Java Lopez

Am 23.01.2015 um 18:18 schrieb Angel Java Lopez <[hidden email]>:

I'm a newbie in these topics...

But, why mention Amber only for client-side?

Any interest in Smalltalk compiled/transpiled to JavaScript and running server-side? I'm doing some pet experiments, but I'm not sure if it could be interesting for others

Sure, there always was much interest of running languages on the java vm because this way you can utilize all of the existing frameworks there. The same reason I can imagine for amber. On the server side it would make sense if you want use javascript frameworks for your task.

The downside is that it will be hard to develop because you are back to text editors and stopping/starting processes. If the html part can be exposed at the same time you have more chances to enjoy the development. If you could develop code in pharo that loads in amber it would be even better although you have to mock the javascript frameworks.

my 2 cents,

Norbert

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Martin. I see where you are coming from. btw, maybe these two frameworks fit your philosophy...
* Flow - https://github.com/flow-stack/flow
* Tide - https://github.com/tide-framework/tide
cheers -ben

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases for server side are starting to drop off.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 09:15:43 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:
Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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cedreek

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by Ben Coman-3

My 2 cents,

I see meteor as a cool alternative, especially the philosophy behind reactive data (DDP) [1]. I guess flow goes into this direction, but I haven’t tried it yet. Actually, I haven’t really succeeded in trying amber (beyond coding in the browser). BTW Sebastian, do you have some kind of tutorial app (for a flow app - sorry if I missed stuff because wasn’t really following evolution recently) ?

Having DDP in smalltalk would be cool I think (publicity on meteor site which is hype [3] and a way to interact with such apps). But again I don’t really consider myself as a specialist.

There’s DDS already in Smalltalk which is a bit to DDP what SOAP is to REST (impression confirmed by a meteor developper). Don’t know the effort to port such work (ruby version [2]) (and if not redondant) but I finally have some time te develop a bit again in the next 6 months so I’ll try to have a look into that and ask questions here and there.

Cheers,

Cédrick

[1]https://github.com/meteor/meteor/blob/devel/packages/ddp/DDP.md

[2]https://github.com/tmeasday/ruby-ddp-client

[3]http://meteorpedia.com/read/DDP_Clients

ps:

Le 23 janv. 2015 à 18:07, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> a écrit :

Thanks Martin. I see where you are coming from. btw, maybe these two frameworks fit your philosophy...
* Flow - https://github.com/flow-stack/flow
* Tide - https://github.com/tide-framework/tide
cheers -ben

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:
Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases for server side are starting to drop off.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 09:15:43 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:
Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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horrido

Re: The Smalltalk Renaissance Program

In reply to this post by NorbertHartl

I don't like JavaScript on the server side. (Heck, I don't like JavaScript on the client side!) It's not a good language, and it wasn't intended to be used server side. I know everybody likes to point at Node.js as a spectacular success, but it's not difficult to find a lot of criticisms about Node on the web. Even TJ Holowaychuk, one of the biggest contributors to the Node project, has essentially abandoned it! Like him, I greatly favour Go on the server side. (Yes, I know, I should favour Seaside, but what can I say? I love Go!)

On Friday, 23 January 2015 12:27:22 UTC-5, Norbert Hartl wrote:

Am 23.01.2015 um 18:18 schrieb Angel Java Lopez <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="V9FF15VZnNAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">ajlop...@...>:

I'm a newbie in these topics...

But, why mention Amber only for client-side?

Any interest in Smalltalk compiled/transpiled to JavaScript and running server-side? I'm doing some pet experiments, but I'm not sure if it could be interesting for others

Sure, there always was much interest of running languages on the java vm because this way you can utilize all of the existing frameworks there. The same reason I can imagine for amber. On the server side it would make sense if you want use javascript frameworks for your task.
The downside is that it will be hard to develop because you are back to text editors and stopping/starting processes. If the html part can be exposed at the same time you have more chances to enjoy the development. If you could develop code in pharo that loads in amber it would be even better although you have to mock the javascript frameworks.

my 2 cents,

Norbert

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Ben Coman <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="V9FF15VZnNAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">benjamin...@...> wrote:
Thanks Martin. I see where you are coming from. btw, maybe these two frameworks fit your philosophy...
* Flow - <a href="https://github.com/flow-stack/flow" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fflow-stack%2Fflow\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF5BwEOtBIYcI8Y1bU-VPlQaOLcBg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fflow-stack%2Fflow\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNF5BwEOtBIYcI8Y1bU-VPlQaOLcBg';return true;">https://github.com/flow-stack/flow
* Tide - <a href="https://github.com/tide-framework/tide" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Ftide-framework%2Ftide\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEpeH57kf2d3mPsGPwjuMyMXBx6Bg';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Ftide-framework%2Ftide\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEpeH57kf2d3mPsGPwjuMyMXBx6Bg';return true;">https://github.com/tide-framework/tide
cheers -ben

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 12:40 AM, Richard Eng <<a href="javascript:" target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="V9FF15VZnNAJ" rel="nofollow" onmousedown="this.href='javascript:';return true;" onclick="this.href='javascript:';return true;">horrido...@...> wrote:
Please note: I am NOT saying that Seaside is unimportant. There will always be a place for server side. However, as Martin indicated, use cases for server side are starting to drop off.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 09:15:43 UTC-5, Richard Eng wrote:
Funny, even the maintainer of the Seaside project was bemoaning the fact that Seaside is becoming less and less important, as the world seems to be rushing headlong into client-side/browser-based application development. We need a good answer for that movement, and it is Amber.

On Friday, 23 January 2015 02:11:28 UTC-5, StephaneDucasse wrote:
for the web you should also talk about
Seaside
Seaside-Rest

Stef
On 23 Jan 2015, at 05:23, Richard Eng <[hidden email]> wrote:

By now, every Smalltalker and his dog has heard about the <a href="https://smalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;" onclick="this.href='https://www.google.com/url?q\75https%3A%2F%2Fsmalltalkrenaissance.wordpress.com%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGdHcNPAbxmBHDXppA7eyMog4Cuw';return true;">Smalltalk Renaissance Program, or SRP. This forum, English, is the new home of all SRP-related discussions. (Previously, I used Pharo Smalltalk Developers and Pharo Smalltalk Users at <a href="http://forum.world.st/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank" onmousedown="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;" onclick="this.href='http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fforum.world.st%2F\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNEqLfvh2O2bl5cW9PCjvPrSo7yPUA';return true;">forum.world.st.)

Please participate in this forum. Please participate in the SRP.

Thanks.

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