The bouncing sound

> I"m finding that with
>
> [Rectangle forward by 5]
> [Rectangle bounce silence]
>
> the rectangle eventually collides with the top of the world and  
> bounces off in the opposite direction - with no sound ... the bounce  
> is silent.
>
> However, this script
>
> [Rectangle forward by JoyStick's upDown * 8]
> [Rectangle bounce silence]
>
> doesn't allow the Rectangle bounce silently off the edge of the  
> world. In this case, when the rectangle  reaches the top of the  
> world, it makes a bouncing sound. The exact sound can be selected in  
> the [Rectangle bounce silence] tile. But selecting 'silence' as the  
> sound doesn't seem to work.
>
> Am I missing something obvious? Shouldn't it be possible to silence  
> the bounce?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

> Scott,
>
> Here's a project file that demonstrates the problem. I'm working in  
> the most recent ver. of Squeak from www.squeak.org (just downloaded  
> a few days ago) .... 3.9-final-7067
>
> When I activate the script with the object controlled by a joystick,  
> the first few times it hits the top of the world and it's silent -  
> all is well. But at some point, after 3 or 4 or 5 collisions, it's  
> no longer silent.
>
> All help much appreciated and thanks very much in advance for  
> looking at the project (made by a student in the class I'm teaching).
>
> Ab,
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> Scott Wallace wrote:
>> Hi, polishookm,
>>
>> I cannot reproduce the phenomenon you describe in any image I have  
>> close to hand -- not in Squeak 3.9, not in Squeakland3.8-05, and  
>> not in the OLPC etoys image.   (Can anyone else?)
>>
>> What version of Squeak are you using?  If it's 3.10, I'll leave it  
>> for other 3.10 users to track this down, since I don't have a copy  
>> of 3.10 handy.
>>
>> Otherwise, perhaps you could email me a copy of a project of yours  
>> which exhibits this symptom...
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -- Scott
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 20, 2008, at 6:38 PM, polishookm wrote:
>>
>>> I"m finding that with
>>>
>>> [Rectangle forward by 5]
>>> [Rectangle bounce silence]
>>>
>>> the rectangle eventually collides with the top of the world and  
>>> bounces off in the opposite direction - with no sound ... the  
>>> bounce is silent.
>>>
>>> However, this script
>>>
>>> [Rectangle forward by JoyStick's upDown * 8]
>>> [Rectangle bounce silence]
>>>
>>> doesn't allow the Rectangle bounce silently off the edge of the  
>>> world. In this case, when the rectangle  reaches the top of the  
>>> world, it makes a bouncing sound. The exact sound can be selected  
>>> in the [Rectangle bounce silence] tile. But selecting 'silence' as  
>>> the sound doesn't seem to work.
>>>
>>> Am I missing something obvious? Shouldn't it be possible to  
>>> silence the bounce?
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beginners mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>
>
> --
> Mark Polishook, D.M.A.
> Technology Coordinator
> Morehead Hall, Rm 132
> Center for Academic Advising and Adult Learning
> Montclair State University
> Montclair, NJ 07043
>
> (973)-655-7114
> http://www.montclair.edu/AcademicAdvising/html
> [hidden email]
>
> <GLPong.002.pr>

> Hi, Mark,
>
> What you're hearing is not a sound associated with the "bounce" but
> rather a sound associated with an object hitting the "fence".
>
> The "fence" is a feature that makes a "forward" command which would
> take an object beyond the edge of its container result in the the
> object's jiggling back into the field of view, accompanied by a
> special "fence" sound.  The intent is to reduce the incidence of
> "runaways" when beginners write scripts using "forward" which rapidly
> take an object beyond an edge of its container, thus making it disappear.
>
> When using "bounce", it's advisable to *disable* the "fence", because
> the interactions between the logic of the two features can produce
> confusing results.
>
> Use the world's "playfield options" menu to disable the fence.
>
> However, without the fence, in your student's example, there seem to
> be situations in which the the paddle overshoots the boundary and
> disappears.  I think you could eliminate these situations by slightly
> reducing the factor used in the paddle's script1.
>
> In the olpc/etoys image, there's an added preference that suppresses
> the fence *sound*, thus allowing the fence feature to be used to keep
> an object within its container's bounds but without the annoyance of
> hearing the "fence" sound.  But this is not in 3.9.
>
> These two features -- a container's "fence" feature and the ability
> for a moving object to request "bounce" -- have always, unhappily,
> been somewhat in conflict.  For the "next" system we expect to have a
> much more harmonious and consistent and understandable way of offering
> such things.
>
> BTW, unless you have a compelling reason to be using 3.9, and
> particularly if tile-scripting is the main focus of your class I
> suggest that you have your students use a Squeakland image rather than
> a 3.9 or 3.10, simply because extensive enhancements, fixes, and
> documentation for tile-scripting ("etoys") are available in the
> Squeakland images.  But if you do decide to switch, it's probably best
> to wait a short while until the "new Squeakland image" gets released.  
> This will be based on the OLPC-etoys image, which is the system in
> which all the advances in etoys have been made over the past 18 months
> -- hundreds of bug-fixes, feature-enhancements, performance
> improvement, example projects, tutorials, and other documentation,
> plus a large user community.
>
> Cheers,
>
>   -- Scott
>
>
> On Feb 20, 2008, at 8:29 PM, polishookm wrote:
>
>> Scott,
>>
>> Here's a project file that demonstrates the problem. I'm working in
>> the most recent ver. of Squeak from www.squeak.org (just downloaded a
>> few days ago) .... 3.9-final-7067
>>
>> When I activate the script with the object controlled by a joystick,
>> the first few times it hits the top of the world and it's silent -
>> all is well. But at some point, after 3 or 4 or 5 collisions, it's no
>> longer silent.
>>
>> All help much appreciated and thanks very much in advance for looking
>> at the project (made by a student in the class I'm teaching).
>>
>> Ab,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>>
>>
>> Scott Wallace wrote:
>>> Hi, polishookm,
>>>
>>> I cannot reproduce the phenomenon you describe in any image I have
>>> close to hand -- not in Squeak 3.9, not in Squeakland3.8-05, and not
>>> in the OLPC etoys image.   (Can anyone else?)
>>>
>>> What version of Squeak are you using?  If it's 3.10, I'll leave it
>>> for other 3.10 users to track this down, since I don't have a copy
>>> of 3.10 handy.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, perhaps you could email me a copy of a project of yours
>>> which exhibits this symptom...
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> -- Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 20, 2008, at 6:38 PM, polishookm wrote:
>>>
>>>> I"m finding that with
>>>>
>>>> [Rectangle forward by 5]
>>>> [Rectangle bounce silence]
>>>>
>>>> the rectangle eventually collides with the top of the world and
>>>> bounces off in the opposite direction - with no sound ... the
>>>> bounce is silent.
>>>>
>>>> However, this script
>>>>
>>>> [Rectangle forward by JoyStick's upDown * 8]
>>>> [Rectangle bounce silence]
>>>>
>>>> doesn't allow the Rectangle bounce silently off the edge of the
>>>> world. In this case, when the rectangle  reaches the top of the
>>>> world, it makes a bouncing sound. The exact sound can be selected
>>>> in the [Rectangle bounce silence] tile. But selecting 'silence' as
>>>> the sound doesn't seem to work.
>>>>
>>>> Am I missing something obvious? Shouldn't it be possible to silence
>>>> the bounce?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Beginners mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Polishook, D.M.A.
>> Technology Coordinator
>> Morehead Hall, Rm 132
>> Center for Academic Advising and Adult Learning
>> Montclair State University
>> Montclair, NJ 07043
>>
>> (973)-655-7114
>> http://www.montclair.edu/AcademicAdvising/html
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> <GLPong.002.pr>
>

>
> I'm confused by the fact, that the reaction of the paddle to the
> joystick reverses after it has bounced.
>
> It even starts reverse when I drag the project onto a fresh 3.9 final.
>
> No experience with etoys but curious.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>  

> And here's a very different, and perhaps nicer, one-line solution.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> -- Scott
>
>
> On Feb 23, 2008, at 2:10 PM, Scott Wallace wrote:
>
>> "Bounce" is particularly unsuited to this example, because it
>> reverses the direction the paddle is "heading" and hence reverses the
>> motion brought about by "forward" commands.  This makes it hard to
>> retain an intuitive relationship between the joystick and the motion
>> of the paddle.
>>
>> FWIW here's a script giving good, or at least intuitive,
>> joystick/paddle action:
>>
>> <positionPaddle.jpg>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -- Scott
>>
>>
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2008, at 5:30 AM, Herbert König wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Mark,
>>>
>>> p> That's an interesting observation. Did you, perchance, play with
>>> it to
>>> p> see what a more intuitive (for you) solution would look like? I
>>> had the
>>>
>>> thanks for asking, that made me try :-))
>>>
>>> p> All suggestions welcome ...
>>>
>>> Nearly everything i know about Etoys is from the Squeak video DVD. So
>>> I opened the viewer of the paddle and it has a tile "PongPaddleA's
>>> heading" which jumps between 0 and 180 when bouncing.
>>>
>>> So the simple solution would be to add a "PongPaddleA's heading = 0"
>>> to the script. I thought I'd just have to drop the tile onto the
>>> script. But this doesn't work, the script doesn't accept the tile.
>>>
>>> This reminded me of several posts on squeak dev that 3.9 is not good
>>> for etoys. So I guess the Thing to do is follow Scott's advice and use
>>> a Squeakland image.
>>>
>>> Dropping the Project onto a 3.8 image doesn't work, this is also
>>> known.
>>>
>>> So I redid it from Ground up in my 3.8 image using an arrow as the
>>> pong paddle (guess why). It made the sound but didn't turn on bounce.
>>> There I learned that one has to drag a tile by the arrow to get it
>>> into a script.
>>>
>>> Then I tried this in 3.9 and in 3.9 the arrow also didn't turn and the
>>> the trick with fixing the heading of the sketch also worked.
>>>
>>> So I proved my accusations on 3.9 unfounded, Sorry 3.9 :-))
>>>
>>> Now drop the one who did (against better knowledge) something the
>>> first time and let the project leader speak up.
>>>
>>> What I did with fixing the heading of the paddle in the script was "an
>>> ugly hack". The price to pay is more uglyness if we ever want to use
>>> "Paddle turn by Joysticks leftRigt" by having to simulate differential
>>> geometry by "absolute geometry".
>>>
>>> So the way to go is find out what makes the Sketch (the inspector
>>> shows the paddle is a SketchMorph) misbehave on bounce. Maybe there is
>>> a reason and then you should use a wide line as your paddle.
>>>
>>> Finally:
>>>
>>> - Attached is my changed 3.9 Project. --> Not to the list but private
>>> mail
>>>
>>> - Maybe this is off topic here, at least you might get better advice
>>> on the squeakland mailing list (where I'm not subscribed).
>>>
>>> - I'd be curious and willing to comment on further development of the
>>> project, maybe by private mail unless somebody here also wants to
>>> follow this.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>>
>>> Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beginners mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Beginners mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>  

> Hi Mark,
>
>
>
> p> That's an interesting observation. Did you, perchance, play with it to
> p> see what a more intuitive (for you) solution would look like? I had the
>
> thanks for asking, that made me try :-))
>
> p> All suggestions welcome ...
>
> Nearly everything i know about Etoys is from the Squeak video DVD. So
> I opened the viewer of the paddle and it has a tile "PongPaddleA's
> heading" which jumps between 0 and 180 when bouncing.
>
> So the simple solution would be to add a "PongPaddleA's heading = 0"
> to the script. I thought I'd just have to drop the tile onto the
> script. But this doesn't work, the script doesn't accept the tile.
>
> This reminded me of several posts on squeak dev that 3.9 is not good
> for etoys. So I guess the Thing to do is follow Scott's advice and use
> a Squeakland image.
>
> Dropping the Project onto a 3.8 image doesn't work, this is also
> known.
>
> So I redid it from Ground up in my 3.8 image using an arrow as the
> pong paddle (guess why). It made the sound but didn't turn on bounce.
> There I learned that one has to drag a tile by the arrow to get it
> into a script.
>
> Then I tried this in 3.9 and in 3.9 the arrow also didn't turn and the
> the trick with fixing the heading of the sketch also worked.
>
> So I proved my accusations on 3.9 unfounded, Sorry 3.9 :-))
>
> Now drop the one who did (against better knowledge) something the
> first time and let the project leader speak up.
>
> What I did with fixing the heading of the paddle in the script was "an
> ugly hack". The price to pay is more uglyness if we ever want to use
> "Paddle turn by Joysticks leftRigt" by having to simulate differential
> geometry by "absolute geometry".
>
> So the way to go is find out what makes the Sketch (the inspector
> shows the paddle is a SketchMorph) misbehave on bounce. Maybe there is
> a reason and then you should use a wide line as your paddle.
>
> Finally:
>
> - Attached is my changed 3.9 Project. --> Not to the list but private
> mail
>
> - Maybe this is off topic here, at least you might get better advice
> on the squeakland mailing list (where I'm not subscribed).
>
> - I'd be curious and willing to comment on further development of the
> project, maybe by private mail unless somebody here also wants to
> follow this.
>
> Cheers
>
> Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>  

> Scott, thanks very much for both solutions (and that great  
> explanation about the fence).
>
> The solution you've proposed here is pretty much what the student  
> began with. Except his scaling factor was slightly higher.
>
> I'll see if I can post the project once it's finished.
>
> Ab,
>
> Mark
>
> Scott Wallace wrote:
>> And here's a very different, and perhaps nicer, one-line solution.
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> -- Scott
>>
>>
>> On Feb 23, 2008, at 2:10 PM, Scott Wallace wrote:
>>
>>> "Bounce" is particularly unsuited to this example, because it  
>>> reverses the direction the paddle is "heading" and hence reverses  
>>> the motion brought about by "forward" commands.  This makes it  
>>> hard to retain an intuitive relationship between the joystick and  
>>> the motion of the paddle.
>>>
>>> FWIW here's a script giving good, or at least intuitive, joystick/
>>> paddle action:
>>>
>>> <positionPaddle.jpg>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> -- Scott
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 23, 2008, at 5:30 AM, Herbert König wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>
>>>> p> That's an interesting observation. Did you, perchance, play  
>>>> with it to
>>>> p> see what a more intuitive (for you) solution would look like?  
>>>> I had the
>>>>
>>>> thanks for asking, that made me try :-))
>>>>
>>>> p> All suggestions welcome ...
>>>>
>>>> Nearly everything i know about Etoys is from the Squeak video  
>>>> DVD. So
>>>> I opened the viewer of the paddle and it has a tile "PongPaddleA's
>>>> heading" which jumps between 0 and 180 when bouncing.
>>>>
>>>> So the simple solution would be to add a "PongPaddleA's heading =  
>>>> 0"
>>>> to the script. I thought I'd just have to drop the tile onto the
>>>> script. But this doesn't work, the script doesn't accept the tile.
>>>>
>>>> This reminded me of several posts on squeak dev that 3.9 is not  
>>>> good
>>>> for etoys. So I guess the Thing to do is follow Scott's advice  
>>>> and use
>>>> a Squeakland image.
>>>>
>>>> Dropping the Project onto a 3.8 image doesn't work, this is also
>>>> known.
>>>>
>>>> So I redid it from Ground up in my 3.8 image using an arrow as the
>>>> pong paddle (guess why). It made the sound but didn't turn on  
>>>> bounce.
>>>> There I learned that one has to drag a tile by the arrow to get it
>>>> into a script.
>>>>
>>>> Then I tried this in 3.9 and in 3.9 the arrow also didn't turn  
>>>> and the
>>>> the trick with fixing the heading of the sketch also worked.
>>>>
>>>> So I proved my accusations on 3.9 unfounded, Sorry 3.9 :-))
>>>>
>>>> Now drop the one who did (against better knowledge) something the
>>>> first time and let the project leader speak up.
>>>>
>>>> What I did with fixing the heading of the paddle in the script  
>>>> was "an
>>>> ugly hack". The price to pay is more uglyness if we ever want to  
>>>> use
>>>> "Paddle turn by Joysticks leftRigt" by having to simulate  
>>>> differential
>>>> geometry by "absolute geometry".
>>>>
>>>> So the way to go is find out what makes the Sketch (the inspector
>>>> shows the paddle is a SketchMorph) misbehave on bounce. Maybe  
>>>> there is
>>>> a reason and then you should use a wide line as your paddle.
>>>>
>>>> Finally:
>>>>
>>>> - Attached is my changed 3.9 Project. --> Not to the list but  
>>>> private
>>>> mail
>>>>
>>>> - Maybe this is off topic here, at least you might get better  
>>>> advice
>>>> on the squeakland mailing list (where I'm not subscribed).
>>>>
>>>> - I'd be curious and willing to comment on further development of  
>>>> the
>>>> project, maybe by private mail unless somebody here also wants to
>>>> follow this.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>>
>>>> Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Beginners mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beginners mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Beginners mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>
>
> --
> Mark Polishook, D.M.A.
> Technology Coordinator
> Morehead Hall, Rm 132
> Center for Academic Advising and Adult Learning
> Montclair State University
> Montclair, NJ 07043
>
> (973)-655-7114
> http://www.montclair.edu/AcademicAdvising/html
> [hidden email]
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners

>
> Cheers
>
>   -- Scott
>
>
> On Feb 23, 2008, at 4:56 PM, polishookm wrote:
>
>> Scott, thanks very much for both solutions (and that great
>> explanation about the fence).
>>
>> The solution you've proposed here is pretty much what the student
>> began with. Except his scaling factor was slightly higher.
>>
>> I'll see if I can post the project once it's finished.
>>
>> Ab,
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> Scott Wallace wrote:
>>> And here's a very different, and perhaps nicer, one-line solution.
>>>
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> -- Scott
>>>
>>>
>>> On Feb 23, 2008, at 2:10 PM, Scott Wallace wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Bounce" is particularly unsuited to this example, because it
>>>> reverses the direction the paddle is "heading" and hence reverses
>>>> the motion brought about by "forward" commands.  This makes it hard
>>>> to retain an intuitive relationship between the joystick and the
>>>> motion of the paddle.
>>>>
>>>> FWIW here's a script giving good, or at least intuitive,
>>>> joystick/paddle action:
>>>>
>>>> <positionPaddle.jpg>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>>
>>>> -- Scott
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Feb 23, 2008, at 5:30 AM, Herbert König wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mark,
>>>>>
>>>>> p> That's an interesting observation. Did you, perchance, play
>>>>> with it to
>>>>> p> see what a more intuitive (for you) solution would look like? I
>>>>> had the
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks for asking, that made me try :-))
>>>>>
>>>>> p> All suggestions welcome ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Nearly everything i know about Etoys is from the Squeak video DVD. So
>>>>> I opened the viewer of the paddle and it has a tile "PongPaddleA's
>>>>> heading" which jumps between 0 and 180 when bouncing.
>>>>>
>>>>> So the simple solution would be to add a "PongPaddleA's heading = 0"
>>>>> to the script. I thought I'd just have to drop the tile onto the
>>>>> script. But this doesn't work, the script doesn't accept the tile.
>>>>>
>>>>> This reminded me of several posts on squeak dev that 3.9 is not good
>>>>> for etoys. So I guess the Thing to do is follow Scott's advice and
>>>>> use
>>>>> a Squeakland image.
>>>>>
>>>>> Dropping the Project onto a 3.8 image doesn't work, this is also
>>>>> known.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I redid it from Ground up in my 3.8 image using an arrow as the
>>>>> pong paddle (guess why). It made the sound but didn't turn on bounce.
>>>>> There I learned that one has to drag a tile by the arrow to get it
>>>>> into a script.
>>>>>
>>>>> Then I tried this in 3.9 and in 3.9 the arrow also didn't turn and
>>>>> the
>>>>> the trick with fixing the heading of the sketch also worked.
>>>>>
>>>>> So I proved my accusations on 3.9 unfounded, Sorry 3.9 :-))
>>>>>
>>>>> Now drop the one who did (against better knowledge) something the
>>>>> first time and let the project leader speak up.
>>>>>
>>>>> What I did with fixing the heading of the paddle in the script was
>>>>> "an
>>>>> ugly hack". The price to pay is more uglyness if we ever want to use
>>>>> "Paddle turn by Joysticks leftRigt" by having to simulate
>>>>> differential
>>>>> geometry by "absolute geometry".
>>>>>
>>>>> So the way to go is find out what makes the Sketch (the inspector
>>>>> shows the paddle is a SketchMorph) misbehave on bounce. Maybe
>>>>> there is
>>>>> a reason and then you should use a wide line as your paddle.
>>>>>
>>>>> Finally:
>>>>>
>>>>> - Attached is my changed 3.9 Project. --> Not to the list but private
>>>>> mail
>>>>>
>>>>> - Maybe this is off topic here, at least you might get better advice
>>>>> on the squeakland mailing list (where I'm not subscribed).
>>>>>
>>>>> - I'd be curious and willing to comment on further development of the
>>>>> project, maybe by private mail unless somebody here also wants to
>>>>> follow this.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>
>>>>> Herbert                            mailto:[hidden email]
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Beginners mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Beginners mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>>
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Beginners mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>>>
>>
>> --
>> Mark Polishook, D.M.A.
>> Technology Coordinator
>> Morehead Hall, Rm 132
>> Center for Academic Advising and Adult Learning
>> Montclair State University
>> Montclair, NJ 07043
>>
>> (973)-655-7114
>> http://www.montclair.edu/AcademicAdvising/html
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Beginners mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners
>
> _______________________________________________
> Beginners mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners