Using Squeak to teach undergrads OOP
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Using Squeak to teach undergrads OOP
 
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Hi,
I was talking to one of my Professors about Squeak the other day and I got an mail asking: "I had lunch with several of the other CS faculty yesterday and I brought up your enthusiasm for smalltalk, which I've never used. Some of the faculty panned it because they claimed the I/O features were either poor or nonexistent. [Java will never be displaced as the first language at ............] What is your impression of the I/O abilities of smalltalk? There is much discussion about the need to learn a language with OOP features before Java. I'm still a novice and I actually haven't been able to play with squeak much lately do to other classwork..so rather than blow an opportunity for squeak I thought I'd ask here and see what the pros say. wfpi _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
Re: Using Squeak to teach undergrads OOP
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On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 07:57:53PM -0500, waufrepi III wrote:
> Hi, > I was talking to one of my Professors about Squeak the other day and I got > an mail asking: > > "I had lunch with several of the other CS faculty yesterday and I brought up > your enthusiasm for smalltalk, which I've never used. Some of the faculty > panned it because they claimed the I/O features were either poor or > nonexistent. [Java will never be displaced as the first language at > ............] What is your impression of the I/O abilities of smalltalk? > There is much discussion about the need to learn a language with OOP > features before Java. > > I'm still a novice and I actually haven't been able to play with squeak much > lately do to other classwork..so rather than blow an opportunity for squeak > I thought I'd ask here and see what the pros say. > wfpi If you want to get a job, study Java. If you want an education, study Squeak. Long term, you will be happier, wealthier and wiser if you get a good education. Dave _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
Re: Using Squeak to teach undergrads OOP
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On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 08:55:11PM -0500, David T. Lewis wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 07:57:53PM -0500, waufrepi III wrote: > > Hi, > > I was talking to one of my Professors about Squeak the other day and I got > > an mail asking: > > > > "I had lunch with several of the other CS faculty yesterday and I brought up > > your enthusiasm for smalltalk, which I've never used. Some of the faculty > > panned it because they claimed the I/O features were either poor or > > nonexistent. [Java will never be displaced as the first language at > > ............] What is your impression of the I/O abilities of smalltalk? > > There is much discussion about the need to learn a language with OOP > > features before Java. > > > > I'm still a novice and I actually haven't been able to play with squeak much > > lately do to other classwork..so rather than blow an opportunity for squeak > > I thought I'd ask here and see what the pros say. > > wfpi Learning how to accomplish programming tasks in different ways is always instructive. I think the theory of OO is far easier demonstrated with Smalltalk, but "practical" OO (as in, real-world OO software) seems to be predominately done in Java, C#, and C++. Indeed, I think the light would go on quicker if the students were introduced to OO concepts via Smalltalk (or even CLOS), rather than "public class Foo implements Bar,Baz", most of which is syntactic noise at the introductory level. My students consistently treated such (Java) code as mysterious incantations, rather than anything comprehensible. > If you want to get a job, study Java. If you want an education, study > Squeak. At the university, are we training thinkers or plug-compatible software engineers? Or, to put it another way, is an undergraduate CS program a vocational school for future low-level industrial programmers, or is it a broad introduction to topics in computer science? > Long term, you will be happier, wealthier and wiser if you get > a good education. Absolutely agreed. _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
Re: Using Squeak to teach undergrads OOP
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In reply to this post by waufrepi III
waufrepi III wrote:
> Hi, > I was talking to one of my Professors about Squeak the other day and > I got an mail asking: > > "I had lunch with several of the other CS faculty yesterday and I > brought up your enthusiasm for smalltalk, which I've never used. Some > of the faculty panned it because they claimed the I/O features were > either poor or nonexistent. [Java will never be displaced as the first > language at ............] What is your impression of the I/O abilities > of smalltalk? There is much discussion about the need to learn a > language with OOP features before Java. > > I'm still a novice and I actually haven't been able to play with > squeak much lately do to other classwork..so rather than blow an > opportunity for squeak I thought I'd ask here and see what the pros say. > wfpi I'm a squeak beginner myself. I can tell you from experience that squeak is a contradictory conglomeration of wonderful features and lame implementations that may or may not make it suitable for teaching a given intro-to-OOP class. Can you point us to class notes from previous classes from the same institution where Java or C# or C++ or Python was used? It is entirely possible that Squeak doesn't have good coverage of the facilities (other than OOP itself) that are expected from a modern language for that particular class. It is also entirely possible that the professors don't know what they are talking about. Without more information, it's all conjecture. Lawson _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
Re: [Newbies] Using Squeak to teach undergrads OOP
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Hello,
Lawson.... unfortunately I don't have any previous class notes to point to because I didn't study here as an undergrad and am just beginning to establish relationship throughout the department. thanks to everyone for your input. Best, wfpi On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Lawson English <[hidden email]> wrote:
_______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
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In reply to this post by waufrepi III
Le Jeudi, 14 Janvier 2010 19:57:53 -0500,
waufrepi III <[hidden email]> a écrit : > "I had lunch with several of the other CS faculty yesterday and I > brought up your enthusiasm for smalltalk, which I've never used. Some > of the faculty panned it because they claimed the I/O features were > either poor or nonexistent. " I do not know much Squeak at the moment, but I do know computer systems and other programming languages. If they ask for Input/Output performance it must be because this is a embedded course where such things matters ? Or maybe they are running very, very slow computers in their classes on which traditional developing is slow (eg. compiling takes forever for the example code) ? I remember being curious once in the past about Smalltalk. So I ended up with about 30 5 1/4" floppy disks that I would load one after the other in a 8MHz 8086 with some 640 KB RAM... To end up seeing after maybe 15 minutes the beginning of a user interface. That surely is not the case today with Squeak on any modern PC. In short, what do they mean with I/O ? Al _______________________________________________ Beginners mailing list [hidden email] http://lists.squeakfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/beginners |
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