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Chantal Thibodeau

VSE migration or upgrade

Hi

We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff is
done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...

We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating it
to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that
language).

Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?

Thanks a lot

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Nowak, Helge

AW: VSE migration or upgrade

Dear Chantal,

you won't be surprised that we are suggesting Cincom Smalltalk ;-)

It gives you the full power of a modern, high performance and mature software platform offering tools and frameworks for all current software architectures including web and SOA. If you are going to Cincom Smalltalk VisualWorks you will additionally gain platform independence. 64-bit support for Windows is in beta, for Linux already available since years. The migration effort should be significantly less than a re-write in Java. Our professional services team will be happy to help you with the project as required.

If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me. I will pass you through to my colleagues responsible for your region.

Cheers
Helge

**************************************************************
Helge Nowak
Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk
Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG
Am Kronberger Hang 4
D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
Email: mailto:[hidden email]
Web: http://www.cincom.com

All about Cincom Smalltalk:
http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com

A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
-- Albert Einstein

Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan
oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653)
Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB 5069)
**************************************************************

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade

Hi

We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk, part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff is done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...

We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that language).

Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?

Thanks a lot

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Chantal Thibodeau

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

Hi

Indeed, no surprise.

I have a few questions. I know that an enterprise offers usually better
services than open sources projects but the cost is also an issue.

- what is the cost for licensing
- I worked with really old VW 3.0, and a little bit 5.0 (awful this one).
Is a repository now integrated with the IDE ?

Thanks again

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:02 AM
Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

> Dear Chantal,
>
> you won't be surprised that we are suggesting Cincom Smalltalk ;-)
>
> It gives you the full power of a modern, high performance and mature
> software platform offering tools and frameworks for all current software
> architectures including web and SOA. If you are going to Cincom Smalltalk
> VisualWorks you will additionally gain platform independence. 64-bit
> support for Windows is in beta, for Linux already available since years.
> The migration effort should be significantly less than a re-write in Java.
> Our professional services team will be happy to help you with the project
> as required.
>
> If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me. I will pass you
> through to my colleagues responsible for your region.
>
> Cheers
> Helge
>
> **************************************************************
> Helge Nowak
> Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk
> Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG
> Am Kronberger Hang 4
> D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
> Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
> Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
> Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
> Email: mailto:[hidden email]
> Web: http://www.cincom.com
>
> All about Cincom Smalltalk:
> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com
>
> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
> -- Albert Einstein
>
> Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan
> oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653)
> Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
> Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB
> 5069)
> **************************************************************
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade
>
> Hi
>
> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff
> is done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>
> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
> it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much
> that language).
>
> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

Nowak, Helge

AW: VSE migration or upgrade

Dear Chantal,

I can't tell you about licensing. This is the task of my sales colleague who covers Canada. I will forward your request to him.

VisualWorks 5i.0 *was* awful!
VisualWorks has matured 12 years at Cincom to become our core Smalltalk technology (since version 8 being also the base for our second environment ObjectStudio). VisualWorks is at version 7.8, we are working on 7.9. Cincom Smalltalk comes with Store as code repository. It is written in Smalltalk (of course) and is fully integrated in both VisualWorks and ObjectStudio.

HTH
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 16:42
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade

Hi

Indeed, no surprise.

I have a few questions. I know that an enterprise offers usually better services than open sources projects but the cost is also an issue.

- what is the cost for licensing
- I worked with really old VW 3.0, and a little bit 5.0 (awful this one).
Is a repository now integrated with the IDE ?

Thanks again

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:02 AM
Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

*** this signature added by listserv ***
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Chantal Thibodeau

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

Thanks a lot

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:53 AM
Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

> Dear Chantal,
>
> I can't tell you about licensing. This is the task of my sales colleague
> who covers Canada. I will forward your request to him.
>
> VisualWorks 5i.0 *was* awful!
> VisualWorks has matured 12 years at Cincom to become our core Smalltalk
> technology (since version 8 being also the base for our second environment
> ObjectStudio). VisualWorks is at version 7.8, we are working on 7.9.
> Cincom Smalltalk comes with Store as code repository. It is written in
> Smalltalk (of course) and is fully integrated in both VisualWorks and
> ObjectStudio.
>
> HTH
> Helge
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 16:42
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade
>
> Hi
>
> Indeed, no surprise.
>
> I have a few questions. I know that an enterprise offers usually better
> services than open sources projects but the cost is also an issue.
>
> - what is the cost for licensing
> - I worked with really old VW 3.0, and a little bit 5.0 (awful this one).
> Is a repository now integrated with the IDE ?
>
> Thanks again
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:02 AM
> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>
>
>> Dear Chantal,
>>
>> you won't be surprised that we are suggesting Cincom Smalltalk ;-)
>>
>> It gives you the full power of a modern, high performance and mature
>> software platform offering tools and frameworks for all current software
>> architectures including web and SOA. If you are going to Cincom Smalltalk
>> VisualWorks you will additionally gain platform independence. 64-bit
>> support for Windows is in beta, for Linux already available since years.
>> The migration effort should be significantly less than a re-write in
>> Java.
>> Our professional services team will be happy to help you with the project
>> as required.
>>
>> If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me. I will pass you
>> through to my colleagues responsible for your region.
>>
>> Cheers
>> Helge
>>
>> **************************************************************
>> Helge Nowak
>> Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk
>> Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG
>> Am Kronberger Hang 4
>> D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
>> Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
>> Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
>> Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
>> Email: mailto:[hidden email]
>> Web: http://www.cincom.com
>>
>> All about Cincom Smalltalk:
>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com
>>
>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>> -- Albert Einstein
>>
>> Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan
>> oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA
>> 2653)
>> Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
>> Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts.
>> HRB
>> 5069)
>> **************************************************************
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
>> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff
>> is done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
>> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
>> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>>
>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
>> it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much
>> that language).
>>
>> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
>> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>>
>> Thanks a lot
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

jarober

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

I have to say that you should also talk to Instantiations. A migration from a VSE codebase to VA is not trivial, but many shops have done them

On Oct 26, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Chantal Thibodeau wrote:

> Thanks a lot
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:53 AM
> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>
>
>> Dear Chantal,
>>
>> I can't tell you about licensing. This is the task of my sales colleague who covers Canada. I will forward your request to him.
>>
>> VisualWorks 5i.0 *was* awful!
>> VisualWorks has matured 12 years at Cincom to become our core Smalltalk technology (since version 8 being also the base for our second environment ObjectStudio). VisualWorks is at version 7.8, we are working on 7.9. Cincom Smalltalk comes with Store as code repository. It is written in Smalltalk (of course) and is fully integrated in both VisualWorks and ObjectStudio.
>>
>> HTH
>> Helge
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 16:42
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Indeed, no surprise.
>>
>> I have a few questions. I know that an enterprise offers usually better services than open sources projects but the cost is also an issue.
>>
>> - what is the cost for licensing
>> - I worked with really old VW 3.0, and a little bit 5.0 (awful this one).
>> Is a repository now integrated with the IDE ?
>>
>> Thanks again
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:02 AM
>> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>>
>>> Dear Chantal,
>>>
>>> you won't be surprised that we are suggesting Cincom Smalltalk ;-)
>>>
>>> It gives you the full power of a modern, high performance and mature
>>> software platform offering tools and frameworks for all current software
>>> architectures including web and SOA. If you are going to Cincom Smalltalk
>>> VisualWorks you will additionally gain platform independence. 64-bit
>>> support for Windows is in beta, for Linux already available since years.
>>> The migration effort should be significantly less than a re-write in Java.
>>> Our professional services team will be happy to help you with the project
>>> as required.
>>>
>>> If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me. I will pass you
>>> through to my colleagues responsible for your region.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Helge
>>>
>>> **************************************************************
>>> Helge Nowak
>>> Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk
>>> Cincom Systems GmbH & Co. oHG
>>> Am Kronberger Hang 4
>>> D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
>>> Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
>>> Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
>>> Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
>>> Email: mailto:[hidden email]
>>> Web: http://www.cincom.com
>>>
>>> All about Cincom Smalltalk:
>>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com
>>>
>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>>> -- Albert Einstein
>>>
>>> Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan
>>> oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653)
>>> Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
>>> Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB
>>> 5069)
>>> **************************************************************
>>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
>>> An: [hidden email]
>>> Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
>>> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff
>>> is done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
>>> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
>>> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>>>
>>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
>>> it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much
>>> that language).
>>>
>>> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
>>> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

Alejandro F. Reimondo

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Chantal Thibodeau

Hi,

> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
> it
> to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that
> language).

I would reccomend to consider the convenience
to move your code to still be "smalltalk code",
but running in a modern execution engine
(open source and mantained by a BIG community).
I mean mantain smalltalk code and execute as javascript
or another OO execution engine (with complete object semantics)
that support the requirements of your application.

The cost to move from VSE to another (old) smalltalk
environment is not small and takes time
(and expert resources) to make it a successfull
experience... and we do not know how much
time will take to an "old" environment become
obsolete in the current world of software
development (/bussiness).
It can be that the smalltalk platform you
choose will vanish before you finish
your migration (or in less than a decade after that).

The size of the community enhancing the execution engine
is also a point to consider, IMO all smalltalk communities
suffer of minimal size to grant the execution engine (VM)
will be mantained and supported to execute efficiently
in modern devices.

Ale.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chantal Thibodeau" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:15 AM
Subject: VSE migration or upgrade

> Hi
>
> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff
> is
> done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>
> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
> it
> to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that
> language).
>
> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

Todor Todorov

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by jarober

Hi Chantal,

Here are some extra comments to add to James' statement.

Obviously, migration is never an easy task. Imagine you live in France and have to move to another country, let's say Germany. Some things are similar, but many are different; new language, new culture, but many similar things. May be Italy is equally challenging as Germany. Migration of a product like yours is similar. Some tasks will be trivial and some will be quite difficult.

In my humble opinion, depending on the amount of hacks, customizations and direct OS and VSE interactions you have in your app, migrating to another Smalltalk dialect will be slightly cheaper than to a whole new language, but you'll also pay price some other places. It's never black and white. You will have to do a thorough research of what is required and what your goals are. Don't make a hastily decision for Java or .Net or Smalltalk. Take the time needed and do the research. Also, don't be afraid to have a hybrid product with parts written in different languages. No language is perfect; they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Just my humble opinion.

-- Todor

-----Original Message-----
From: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Robertson
Sent: 26. oktober 2011 18:58
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: VSE migration or upgrade

I have to say that you should also talk to Instantiations. A migration from a VSE codebase to VA is not trivial, but many shops have done them

On Oct 26, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Chantal Thibodeau wrote:

> Thanks a lot
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:53 AM
> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>
>
>> Dear Chantal,
>>
>> I can't tell you about licensing. This is the task of my sales colleague who covers Canada. I will forward your request to him.
>>
>> VisualWorks 5i.0 *was* awful!
>> VisualWorks has matured 12 years at Cincom to become our core Smalltalk technology (since version 8 being also the base for our second environment ObjectStudio). VisualWorks is at version 7.8, we are working on 7.9. Cincom Smalltalk comes with Store as code repository. It is written in Smalltalk (of course) and is fully integrated in both VisualWorks and ObjectStudio.
>>
>> HTH
>> Helge
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 16:42
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Indeed, no surprise.
>>
>> I have a few questions. I know that an enterprise offers usually better services than open sources projects but the cost is also an issue.
>>
>> - what is the cost for licensing
>> - I worked with really old VW 3.0, and a little bit 5.0 (awful this one).
>> Is a repository now integrated with the IDE ?
>>
>> Thanks again
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:02 AM
>> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>>
>>> Dear Chantal,
>>>
>>> you won't be surprised that we are suggesting Cincom Smalltalk ;-)
>>>
>>> It gives you the full power of a modern, high performance and mature
>>> software platform offering tools and frameworks for all current
>>> software architectures including web and SOA. If you are going to
>>> Cincom Smalltalk VisualWorks you will additionally gain platform
>>> independence. 64-bit support for Windows is in beta, for Linux already available since years.
>>> The migration effort should be significantly less than a re-write in Java.
>>> Our professional services team will be happy to help you with the
>>> project as required.
>>>
>>> If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me. I will pass
>>> you through to my colleagues responsible for your region.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Helge
>>>
>>> **************************************************************
>>> Helge Nowak
>>> Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk Cincom Systems GmbH & Co.
>>> oHG Am Kronberger Hang 4
>>> D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
>>> Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
>>> Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
>>> Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
>>> Email: mailto:[hidden email]
>>> Web: http://www.cincom.com
>>>
>>> All about Cincom Smalltalk:
>>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com
>>>
>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>>> -- Albert Einstein
>>>
>>> Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L.
>>> Shawhan oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht
>>> Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653) Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
>>> Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht
>>> Königstein/Ts. HRB
>>> 5069)
>>> **************************************************************
>>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
>>> An: [hidden email]
>>> Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in
>>> Smalltalk, part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and
>>> all the new stuff is done in Java. But we still have large portion
>>> of code maintained and improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit
>>> of it 16 bits: 4 go max file size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>>>
>>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or
>>> migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i
>>> love so much that language).
>>>
>>> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
>>> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
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frank.lesser

AW: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Chantal Thibodeau

I would decide after Windows 8 has appeared & you can judge which
dev-environment can handle it.

Win8 is COM based under the Hood GUI is DirectX (for metro style apps
legacy applications can still run in STA = (S means single threaded))

VSE will **not** be able to produce Metro-Style Apps - which will become a
Standard for Windows applications very soon.

Biggest change is of Win8 is
- MTA (m means Multithreaded) in the GUI in Win8 and the depreciation of GDI
GDI+ / USER DLLs!
- Target also ARM processors!
- & of course Cloud services.

64 Bit is a matter of reorganizing Memory-Management of a
Smalltalk-Implementation to escape the Prototype-State.

With Win8 IMHO MS will again be the technological lead - no matter how much
Android based computers or I-Phones are sold.
X'es have never made the transition to OO-OS'es - which MS did when they
announced Windows-NT more than a decade ago.

Only a very few Smalltalks will compete in this new world but I am sure
Open Source STs will survive as scripting languages.

Frank.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade

Hi

We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff is
done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...

We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating it
to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that
language).

Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?

Thanks a lot

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

Derek Renouf

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Alejandro F. Reimondo

Hi all,

Sharing some of my opinions:

If you have an existing application in VSE then the S8 approach sounds great because it means that applications running on Win 7/8 can benefit from multi-processor support and an option for 64 bit, with the potential to hook into emerging HTML5/JavaScript libraries for the UI.

I think that Win 7/8 in the desktop environment with gesture support is going to be around for the foreseeable future. Hybrid notebooks and desktops released next year should have touch screens when Win 8 goes live, offering a combination of mouse, keyboard and touch.

If you're trying to write a 100% mobile device application then from what I've seen to date the best cross-platform mobile device tools for consideration is HTML5/JavaScript. PhoneGap for instance (which has been recently bought by Adobe) allows you to create cross-platform native applications for mobile devices using this technology. It also lets you tap into device-specific APIs. Having development tools that compile into JavaScript and can use related frameworks will be a game changer - S8 has the potential to do this. You can then code in Smalltalk and deploy on to fast JavaScript VMs. Goggle's Dart environment already takes this approach and as I understand it, has strong Smalltalk influences (other than the syntax).

S8 is in a position to support a modernising of VSE that can reuse the deluge of coming HTML5/JavaScript frameworks. It may also then facilitate future Smalltalk-based mobile applications. It is supports 64 bit and multi-processes in the VM, and if this is made available to VSE, then certainly modern fat client and heavy-duty server applications can be written with this technology.

Going out on a limb here: if only Cincom would get behind this effort and make this their standard VM across all of their products, there would be more opportunities for us all. There would be opportunities then for Cincom (or other vendors) to write value-added Java, .NET and other UI interfaces (for their existing product lines, including VSE), as well as other application frameworks, which could be licensed as part of a package that includes the S8 VM, or even champion a Smalltalk-based "PhoneGap" style of tool with this. Just thoughts...

-- Derek

-----Original Message-----
From: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alejandro F. Reimondo
Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:57 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: VSE migration or upgrade

Hi,

> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or
> migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i
> love so much that language).

I would reccomend to consider the convenience to move your code to still be "smalltalk code", but running in a modern execution engine (open source and mantained by a BIG community).
I mean mantain smalltalk code and execute as javascript or another OO execution engine (with complete object semantics) that support the requirements of your application.

The cost to move from VSE to another (old) smalltalk environment is not small and takes time (and expert resources) to make it a successfull experience... and we do not know how much time will take to an "old" environment become obsolete in the current world of software development (/bussiness).
It can be that the smalltalk platform you choose will vanish before you finish your migration (or in less than a decade after that).

The size of the community enhancing the execution engine is also a point to consider, IMO all smalltalk communities suffer of minimal size to grant the execution engine (VM) will be mantained and supported to execute efficiently in modern devices.

Ale.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Chantal Thibodeau" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:15 AM
Subject: VSE migration or upgrade

Gerardo Richarte

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Chantal Thibodeau

May I ask what your application is about? For example, does it have a
very rich user interface? porting a GUI won't be easy to anywhere else,
and it may justify implementing a compatibility layer instead of a
direct port (at least to minimize the time it takes to port the whole
thing, or as a first step in embracing the new UI framework)

Do you use custom or 3rd party native libraries? In this case, the
availability of these libraries, or the easy to make them work in
another dialect may direct your decision (probably an open source
environment is better since you can see the source and find out what
special glue code you may need, if you do)

Is your model the most complex part of your app? in that case, maybe
porting to a different Smalltalk dialect is not so expensive. But
porting to a different language altogether is very expensive. And it may
let you do something intermediate, where you have the model working
pretty fast, and use a Web interface to access the data (in which case
you may want to try Seaside or better (IMHO) Aida), and Pharo + Gemstone
would be a great choice.

etc :)

gera

On 10/26/2011 10:15 AM, Chantal Thibodeau wrote:

> Hi
>
> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff is
> done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>
> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating it
> to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that
> language).
>
> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

Nowak, Helge

AW: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Todor Todorov

... and - maybe stating the obvious - don't rely on paper. Compare by proof of concept projects that are representative of your (current and future) requirements.

Cheers
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Todor Todorov
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 22:08
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade

Hi Chantal,

Here are some extra comments to add to James' statement.

Obviously, migration is never an easy task. Imagine you live in France and have to move to another country, let's say Germany. Some things are similar, but many are different; new language, new culture, but many similar things. May be Italy is equally challenging as Germany. Migration of a product like yours is similar. Some tasks will be trivial and some will be quite difficult.

In my humble opinion, depending on the amount of hacks, customizations and direct OS and VSE interactions you have in your app, migrating to another Smalltalk dialect will be slightly cheaper than to a whole new language, but you'll also pay price some other places. It's never black and white. You will have to do a thorough research of what is required and what your goals are. Don't make a hastily decision for Java or .Net or Smalltalk. Take the time needed and do the research. Also, don't be afraid to have a hybrid product with parts written in different languages. No language is perfect; they all have their strengths and weaknesses.

Just my humble opinion.

-- Todor

-----Original Message-----
From: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of James Robertson
Sent: 26. oktober 2011 18:58
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: VSE migration or upgrade

I have to say that you should also talk to Instantiations. A migration from a VSE codebase to VA is not trivial, but many shops have done them

On Oct 26, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Chantal Thibodeau wrote:

> Thanks a lot
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:53 AM
> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>
>
>> Dear Chantal,
>>
>> I can't tell you about licensing. This is the task of my sales colleague who covers Canada. I will forward your request to him.
>>
>> VisualWorks 5i.0 *was* awful!
>> VisualWorks has matured 12 years at Cincom to become our core Smalltalk technology (since version 8 being also the base for our second environment ObjectStudio). VisualWorks is at version 7.8, we are working on 7.9. Cincom Smalltalk comes with Store as code repository. It is written in Smalltalk (of course) and is fully integrated in both VisualWorks and ObjectStudio.
>>
>> HTH
>> Helge
>>
>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 16:42
>> An: [hidden email]
>> Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>> Hi
>>
>> Indeed, no surprise.
>>
>> I have a few questions. I know that an enterprise offers usually better services than open sources projects but the cost is also an issue.
>>
>> - what is the cost for licensing
>> - I worked with really old VW 3.0, and a little bit 5.0 (awful this one).
>> Is a repository now integrated with the IDE ?
>>
>> Thanks again
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Nowak, Helge" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:02 AM
>> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>>
>>> Dear Chantal,
>>>
>>> you won't be surprised that we are suggesting Cincom Smalltalk ;-)
>>>
>>> It gives you the full power of a modern, high performance and mature
>>> software platform offering tools and frameworks for all current
>>> software architectures including web and SOA. If you are going to
>>> Cincom Smalltalk VisualWorks you will additionally gain platform
>>> independence. 64-bit support for Windows is in beta, for Linux already available since years.
>>> The migration effort should be significantly less than a re-write in Java.
>>> Our professional services team will be happy to help you with the
>>> project as required.
>>>
>>> If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me. I will pass
>>> you through to my colleagues responsible for your region.
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Helge
>>>
>>> **************************************************************
>>> Helge Nowak
>>> Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk Cincom Systems GmbH & Co.
>>> oHG Am Kronberger Hang 4
>>> D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
>>> Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
>>> Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
>>> Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
>>> Email: mailto:[hidden email]
>>> Web: http://www.cincom.com
>>>
>>> All about Cincom Smalltalk:
>>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com
>>>
>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>>> -- Albert Einstein
>>>
>>> Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L.
>>> Shawhan oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht
>>> Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653) Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
>>> Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht
>>> Königstein/Ts. HRB
>>> 5069)
>>> **************************************************************
>>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
>>> An: [hidden email]
>>> Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in
>>> Smalltalk, part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and
>>> all the new stuff is done in Java. But we still have large portion
>>> of code maintained and improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit
>>> of it 16 bits: 4 go max file size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>>>
>>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or
>>> migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i
>>> love so much that language).
>>>
>>> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
>>> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

James Robertson
http://www.jarober.com
[hidden email]

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*** this signature added by listserv ***
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*** this signature added by listserv ***
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Nowak, Helge

AW: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by frank.lesser

IMHO whether Windows 8 will be a success or not is still to be proved. The radical change to the Metro UI is most likely to be hard to sell (to put it moderately) to Microsoft's most important user group: the company users. As always it is a matter of requirements: a Metro style UI may work well for simple apps on phones and tablets, yet it is no option for applications that require a sophisticated UI. In the currently available Windows 8 beta Metro apps can't even be terminated easily. So, if your application can efficiently be used by swiping between full screen pages back and forth you'll find in Metro a fashionable UI (how long does fashion last?). End user productivity is the ultimate gauge. I doubt that there will be a quick adoption of Windows 8. And I am not alone with that opinion.

Cheers
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Frank Lesser
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2011 00:59
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

I would decide after Windows 8 has appeared & you can judge which dev-environment can handle it.

Win8 is COM based under the Hood - GUI is DirectX (for metro style apps - legacy applications can still run in STA = (S means single threaded))

VSE will **not** be able to produce Metro-Style Apps - which will become a Standard for Windows applications very soon.

Biggest change is of Win8 is
- MTA (m means Multithreaded) in the GUI in Win8 and the depreciation of GDI
GDI+ / USER DLLs!
- Target also ARM processors!
- & of course Cloud services.

64 Bit is a matter of reorganizing Memory-Management of a Smalltalk-Implementation to escape the Prototype-State.

With Win8 IMHO MS will again be the technological lead - no matter how much Android based computers or I-Phones are sold.
X'es have never made the transition to OO-OS'es - which MS did when they announced Windows-NT more than a decade ago.

Only a very few Smalltalk's will compete in this new world - but I am sure Open Source ST's will survive as scripting languages.

Frank.

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade

Hi

We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk, part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff is done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...

We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that language).

Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?

Thanks a lot

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

*** this signature added by listserv ***
*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

Davide Grandi

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by jarober

+ 1

Direct experience (albeit 12 years old)

Davide Grandi

Il 26/10/2011 18.58, James Robertson ha scritto:

> I have to say that you should also talk to Instantiations. A migration from a VSE codebase to VA is not trivial, but many shops have done them
>
>
> On Oct 26, 2011, at 11:28 AM, Chantal Thibodeau wrote:
>
>> Thanks a lot
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Nowak, Helge"<[hidden email]>
>> To:<[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:53 AM
>> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>>
>>> Dear Chantal,
>>>
>>> I can't tell you about licensing. This is the task of my sales colleague who covers Canada. I will forward your request to him.
>>>
>>> VisualWorks 5i.0 *was* awful!
>>> VisualWorks has matured 12 years at Cincom to become our core Smalltalk technology (since version 8 being also the base for our second environment ObjectStudio). VisualWorks is at version 7.8, we are working on 7.9. Cincom Smalltalk comes with Store as code repository. It is written in Smalltalk (of course) and is fully integrated in both VisualWorks and ObjectStudio.
>>>
>>> HTH
>>> Helge
>>>
>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 16:42
>>> An: [hidden email]
>>> Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade
>>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> Indeed, no surprise.
>>>
>>> I have a few questions. I know that an enterprise offers usually better services than open sources projects but the cost is also an issue.
>>>
>>> - what is the cost for licensing
>>> - I worked with really old VW 3.0, and a little bit 5.0 (awful this one).
>>> Is a repository now integrated with the IDE ?
>>>
>>> Thanks again
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Nowak, Helge"<[hidden email]>
>>> To:<[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:02 AM
>>> Subject: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>>>
>>>
>>>> Dear Chantal,
>>>>
>>>> you won't be surprised that we are suggesting Cincom Smalltalk ;-)
>>>>
>>>> It gives you the full power of a modern, high performance and mature
>>>> software platform offering tools and frameworks for all current software
>>>> architectures including web and SOA. If you are going to Cincom Smalltalk
>>>> VisualWorks you will additionally gain platform independence. 64-bit
>>>> support for Windows is in beta, for Linux already available since years.
>>>> The migration effort should be significantly less than a re-write in Java.
>>>> Our professional services team will be happy to help you with the project
>>>> as required.
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me. I will pass you
>>>> through to my colleagues responsible for your region.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers
>>>> Helge
>>>>
>>>> **************************************************************
>>>> Helge Nowak
>>>> Technical Account Manager Cincom Smalltalk
>>>> Cincom Systems GmbH& Co. oHG
>>>> Am Kronberger Hang 4
>>>> D-65824 Schwalbach/Ts.
>>>> Tel.: +49-(0)89-89664494
>>>> Mobil: +49-(0)172-7400402
>>>> Fax: +49-(0)89-89664495
>>>> Email: mailto:[hidden email]
>>>> Web: http://www.cincom.com
>>>>
>>>> All about Cincom Smalltalk:
>>>> http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com
>>>>
>>>> A standpoint is an intellectual horizon of radius zero.
>>>> -- Albert Einstein
>>>>
>>>> Geschäftsführer/Managing Directors: Thomas M. Nies, Gerald L. Shawhan
>>>> oHG mit Sitz/based in Schwalbach/Ts. (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRA 2653)
>>>> Pers. haftender Gesellschafter/Partner liable to unlimited extent:
>>>> Cincom Systems Verwaltungsgesellschaft mbH (Amtsgericht Königstein/Ts. HRB
>>>> 5069)
>>>> **************************************************************
>>>>
>>>> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
>>>> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
>>>> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
>>>> An: [hidden email]
>>>> Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade
>>>>
>>>> Hi
>>>>
>>>> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
>>>> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff
>>>> is done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
>>>> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
>>>> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>>>>
>>>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
>>>> it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much
>>>> that language).
>>>>
>>>> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
>>>> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot
>>>>
>>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>>
>>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
> James Robertson
> http://www.jarober.com
> [hidden email]
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
>

*** this signature added by listserv ***
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jarober

Re: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Nowak, Helge

Having spent the last year working on a "sophisticated" UI - and more importantly, having interacted with end users of said UI - I have to say that the approach taken by MS may well have merit. Much of the time, the bells and whistles that we add to a system do nothing more than baffle people. The simpler a UI, the better, I'm starting to think.

On Oct 27, 2011, at 3:52 AM, Nowak, Helge wrote:

> IMHO whether Windows 8 will be a success or not is still to be proved. The radical change to the Metro UI is most likely to be hard to sell (to put it moderately) to Microsoft's most important user group: the company users. As always it is a matter of requirements: a Metro style UI may work well for simple apps on phones and tablets, yet it is no option for applications that require a sophisticated UI. In the currently available Windows 8 beta Metro apps can't even be terminated easily. So, if your application can efficiently be used by swiping between full screen pages back and forth you'll find in Metro a fashionable UI (how long does fashion last?). End user productivity is the ultimate gauge. I doubt that there will be a quick adoption of Windows 8. And I am not alone with that opinion.
>
> Cheers
> Helge
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Frank Lesser
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2011 00:59
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: AW: VSE migration or upgrade
>
> I would decide after Windows 8 has appeared & you can judge which dev-environment can handle it.
>
> Win8 is COM based under the Hood - GUI is DirectX (for metro style apps - legacy applications can still run in STA = (S means single threaded))
>
> VSE will **not** be able to produce Metro-Style Apps - which will become a Standard for Windows applications very soon.
>
> Biggest change is of Win8 is
> - MTA (m means Multithreaded) in the GUI in Win8 and the depreciation of GDI
> GDI+ / USER DLLs!
> - Target also ARM processors!
> - & of course Cloud services.
>
> 64 Bit is a matter of reorganizing Memory-Management of a Smalltalk-Implementation to escape the Prototype-State.
>
> With Win8 IMHO MS will again be the technological lead - no matter how much Android based computers or I-Phones are sold.
> X'es have never made the transition to OO-OS'es - which MS did when they announced Windows-NT more than a decade ago.
>
> Only a very few Smalltalk's will compete in this new world - but I am sure Open Source ST's will survive as scripting languages.
>
> Frank.
>
> -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
> Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 26. Oktober 2011 15:16
> An: [hidden email]
> Betreff: VSE migration or upgrade
>
> Hi
>
> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk, part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff is done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>
> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that language).
>
> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
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> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
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Lee Breisacher

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Chantal Thibodeau

Under the heading of Smalltalk and JavaScript, has everyone seen this:
http://amber-lang.net/

On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:09:08 +1100, Derek Renouf
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>Sharing some of my opinions:
>
>If you have an existing application in VSE then the S8 approach sounds
great because it means that applications running on Win 7/8 can benefit from
multi-processor support and an option for 64 bit, with the potential to hook
into emerging HTML5/JavaScript libraries for the UI.
>
>I think that Win 7/8 in the desktop environment with gesture support is
going to be around for the foreseeable future. Hybrid notebooks and desktops
released next year should have touch screens when Win 8 goes live, offering
a combination of mouse, keyboard and touch.
>
>If you're trying to write a 100% mobile device application then from what
I've seen to date the best cross-platform mobile device tools for
consideration is HTML5/JavaScript. PhoneGap for instance (which has been
recently bought by Adobe) allows you to create cross-platform native
applications for mobile devices using this technology. It also lets you tap
into device-specific APIs. Having development tools that compile into
JavaScript and can use related frameworks will be a game changer - S8 has
the potential to do this. You can then code in Smalltalk and deploy on to
fast JavaScript VMs. Goggle's Dart environment already takes this approach
and as I understand it, has strong Smalltalk influences (other than the syntax).
>
>S8 is in a position to support a modernising of VSE that can reuse the
deluge of coming HTML5/JavaScript frameworks. It may also then facilitate
future Smalltalk-based mobile applications. It is supports 64 bit and
multi-processes in the VM, and if this is made available to VSE, then
certainly modern fat client and heavy-duty server applications can be
written with this technology.
>
>Going out on a limb here: if only Cincom would get behind this effort and
make this their standard VM across all of their products, there would be
more opportunities for us all. There would be opportunities then for Cincom
(or other vendors) to write value-added Java, .NET and other UI interfaces
(for their existing product lines, including VSE), as well as other
application frameworks, which could be licensed as part of a package that
includes the S8 VM, or even champion a Smalltalk-based "PhoneGap" style of
tool with this. Just thoughts...
>
>-- Derek
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
[mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alejandro F. Reimondo

>Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:57 AM
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: VSE migration or upgrade
>
>Hi,
>
>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or
>> migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i
>> love so much that language).
>
>I would reccomend to consider the convenience to move your code to still

be "smalltalk code", but running in a modern execution engine (open source
and mantained by a BIG community).
>I mean mantain smalltalk code and execute as javascript or another OO
execution engine (with complete object semantics) that support the
requirements of your application.
>
>The cost to move from VSE to another (old) smalltalk environment is not
small and takes time (and expert resources) to make it a successfull
experience... and we do not know how much time will take to an "old"
environment become obsolete in the current world of software development
(/bussiness).
>It can be that the smalltalk platform you choose will vanish before you
finish your migration (or in less than a decade after that).
>
>The size of the community enhancing the execution engine is also a point
to consider, IMO all smalltalk communities suffer of minimal size to grant
the execution engine (VM) will be mantained and supported to execute
efficiently in modern devices.

>
>Ale.
>
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Chantal Thibodeau" <[hidden email]>
>To: <[hidden email]>
>Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:15 AM
>Subject: VSE migration or upgrade
>
>
>> Hi
>>
>> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
>> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff
>> is
>> done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
>> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
>> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>>
>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
>> it
>> to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that
>> language).
>>
>> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
>> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>>
>> Thanks a lot
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>
>
>*** this signature added by listserv ***
>*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>
>*** this signature added by listserv ***
>*** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>=========================================================================

*** this signature added by listserv ***
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jarober

Re: VSE migration or upgrade

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8YlSA-wncbY

On Oct 27, 2011, at 8:36 AM, Lee Breisacher wrote:

> Under the heading of Smalltalk and JavaScript, has everyone seen this:
> http://amber-lang.net/
>
>
> On Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:09:08 +1100, Derek Renouf
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Sharing some of my opinions:
>>
>> If you have an existing application in VSE then the S8 approach sounds
> great because it means that applications running on Win 7/8 can benefit from
> multi-processor support and an option for 64 bit, with the potential to hook
> into emerging HTML5/JavaScript libraries for the UI.
>>
>> I think that Win 7/8 in the desktop environment with gesture support is
> going to be around for the foreseeable future. Hybrid notebooks and desktops
> released next year should have touch screens when Win 8 goes live, offering
> a combination of mouse, keyboard and touch.
>>
>> If you're trying to write a 100% mobile device application then from what
> I've seen to date the best cross-platform mobile device tools for
> consideration is HTML5/JavaScript. PhoneGap for instance (which has been
> recently bought by Adobe) allows you to create cross-platform native
> applications for mobile devices using this technology. It also lets you tap
> into device-specific APIs. Having development tools that compile into
> JavaScript and can use related frameworks will be a game changer - S8 has
> the potential to do this. You can then code in Smalltalk and deploy on to
> fast JavaScript VMs. Goggle's Dart environment already takes this approach
> and as I understand it, has strong Smalltalk influences (other than the syntax).
>>
>> S8 is in a position to support a modernising of VSE that can reuse the
> deluge of coming HTML5/JavaScript frameworks. It may also then facilitate
> future Smalltalk-based mobile applications. It is supports 64 bit and
> multi-processes in the VM, and if this is made available to VSE, then
> certainly modern fat client and heavy-duty server applications can be
> written with this technology.
>>
>> Going out on a limb here: if only Cincom would get behind this effort and
> make this their standard VM across all of their products, there would be
> more opportunities for us all. There would be opportunities then for Cincom
> (or other vendors) to write value-added Java, .NET and other UI interfaces
> (for their existing product lines, including VSE), as well as other
> application frameworks, which could be licensed as part of a package that
> includes the S8 VM, or even champion a Smalltalk-based "PhoneGap" style of
> tool with this. Just thoughts...
>>
>> -- Derek
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Alejandro F. Reimondo
>> Sent: Thursday, 27 October 2011 6:57 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or
>>> migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i
>>> love so much that language).
>>
>> I would reccomend to consider the convenience to move your code to still
> be "smalltalk code", but running in a modern execution engine (open source
> and mantained by a BIG community).
>> I mean mantain smalltalk code and execute as javascript or another OO
> execution engine (with complete object semantics) that support the
> requirements of your application.
>>
>> The cost to move from VSE to another (old) smalltalk environment is not
> small and takes time (and expert resources) to make it a successfull
> experience... and we do not know how much time will take to an "old"
> environment become obsolete in the current world of software development
> (/bussiness).
>> It can be that the smalltalk platform you choose will vanish before you
> finish your migration (or in less than a decade after that).
>>
>> The size of the community enhancing the execution engine is also a point
> to consider, IMO all smalltalk communities suffer of minimal size to grant
> the execution engine (VM) will be mantained and supported to execute
> efficiently in modern devices.
>>
>> Ale.
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Chantal Thibodeau" <[hidden email]>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 10:15 AM
>> Subject: VSE migration or upgrade
>>
>>
>>> Hi
>>>
>>> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in Smalltalk,
>>> part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all the new stuff
>>> is
>>> done in Java. But we still have large portion of code maintained and
>>> improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it 16 bits: 4 go max file
>>> size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>>>
>>> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or migrating
>>> it
>>> to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i love so much that
>>> language).
>>>
>>> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
>>> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot
>>>
>>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>>
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>>
>> *** this signature added by listserv ***
>> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
>> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>> =========================================================================
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

Chantal Thibodeau

Re: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Chantal Thibodeau

Thank you all.

We have a lot a Smalltalk code still running, some with "real" user
interfaces. The two applications we are looking at to move on are
- a search engine (so, processing code a lot, Strings and Collections, a
really lite interface to show the current resquest and that's all)
- a data analyzer, wich lookup in a SQL databases to compare Strings and
load tons of data in memory to generate summarized reports.

In those 2 apps, we are beginning to have problem with the memory space we
can allowed (1 go of ram at this time) and the file size limit (4 go).

So there is really no GUI issue. I was wondering about the maturity of the
different "flavor" of Smalltalk, on the easiness of installation,
repository "embedded" or not, deployment.

We are currently working Java within Eclipse here and I saw briefly that it
can support Smalltalk.

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Nowak, Helge

AW: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

These two applications sound to be "perfect" candidates for Smalltalk. They can even run as headless servers with a web GUI and/or providing their service via whatever APIs are required.

Therefore you should look for a base technology that is high performance, scalable and stable. Sorry to say: currently VisualWorks is the leading Smalltalk in this area. It runs on Windows, OS-X, Linux (x86, PowerPC), SPARC Solaris and AIX in 32-bit mode. You will get beyond 3 GB RAM and 4 GB file size only on 64-bit platforms. VisualWorks runs on Solaris and Linux x86-64 today in 64-bit mode and soon on Windows 7 64-bit.

You will also like the VisualWorks IDE which has changed completely from the old versions you had worked with.

Deployment is easy: you have several options according to your needs: everything in an image, or a base image plus loadable parcels. Updating during runtime without stopping the application by loading a parcel is possible and a big asset in server centric architectures.

Cheers
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Chantal Thibodeau
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2011 15:48
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: AW: VSE migration or upgrade

Thank you all.

We have a lot a Smalltalk code still running, some with "real" user interfaces. The two applications we are looking at to move on are
- a search engine (so, processing code a lot, Strings and Collections, a really lite interface to show the current resquest and that's all)
- a data analyzer, wich lookup in a SQL databases to compare Strings and load tons of data in memory to generate summarized reports.

In those 2 apps, we are beginning to have problem with the memory space we can allowed (1 go of ram at this time) and the file size limit (4 go).

So there is really no GUI issue. I was wondering about the maturity of the different "flavor" of Smalltalk, on the easiness of installation, repository "embedded" or not, deployment.

We are currently working Java within Eclipse here and I saw briefly that it can support Smalltalk.

*** this signature added by listserv ***
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*** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***

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Nowak, Helge

AW: VSE migration or upgrade

In reply to this post by Gerardo Richarte

For completeness: though Cincom Smalltalk is _not_ open source software in the sense of FOSS the environment can be evaluated and the Smalltalk code can be seen and examined like in an open source dialect. The download is here: http://www.cincomsmalltalk.com/main/developer-community/trying-cincom-smalltalk/try-cincom-smalltalk/

And another remark: thanks to the attempt of ParcPlace-Digitalk to unify VSE and VisualWorks the two Smalltalks aren't so different as they look from the outside. That is: domain code well isolated from the GUI should be easily portable. We have customers who did this. E. g. some of them turned the business logic of sophisticated GUI applications into web applications.

Cheers
Helge

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Using Visual Smalltalk for Windows/Enterprise [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Gerardo Richarte
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 27. Oktober 2011 04:08
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: VSE migration or upgrade

May I ask what your application is about? For example, does it have a very rich user interface? porting a GUI won't be easy to anywhere else, and it may justify implementing a compatibility layer instead of a direct port (at least to minimize the time it takes to port the whole thing, or as a first step in embracing the new UI framework)

Do you use custom or 3rd party native libraries? In this case, the availability of these libraries, or the easy to make them work in another dialect may direct your decision (probably an open source environment is better since you can see the source and find out what special glue code you may need, if you do)

Is your model the most complex part of your app? in that case, maybe porting to a different Smalltalk dialect is not so expensive. But porting to a different language altogether is very expensive. And it may let you do something intermediate, where you have the model working pretty fast, and use a Web interface to access the data (in which case you may want to try Seaside or better (IMHO) Aida), and Pharo + Gemstone would be a great choice.

etc :)

gera

On 10/26/2011 10:15 AM, Chantal Thibodeau wrote:

> Hi
>
> We are a business with about 15 years of development, part in
> Smalltalk, part in Java. The old stuff was done in Smalltalk and all
> the new stuff is done in Java. But we still have large portion of
> code maintained and improved in Smalltalk. Be we have the limit of it
> 16 bits: 4 go max file size, 1 go of allocated RAM memory...
>
> We are thinking of migrating all this Smallalk code to Java or
> migrating it to a new version of Smalltalk (wich I prefer because i
> love so much that language).
>
> Do you have any recommendations about GNU, Squeak, Pharo, Cincom (we
> previously upgraded a bit to VisualWorks 3.0 but I didn't love it) ?
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> *** this signature added by listserv ***
> *** Visit http://www.listserv.dfn.de/archives/vswe-l.html ***
> *** for archive browsing and VSWE-L membership management ***
>