WebAssembly
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I've just bumped into WebAssembly and am curious what opportunities (or not) it might offer us. * https://medium.com/javascript-scene/what-is-webassembly-the-dawn-of-a-new-era-61256ec5a8f6#.60dghpaek One approach could be to just compile our currently generated C code to WevAssembly via LLVM. Ronie's recent effort to produce a non-display minimal VM should help proof of concept here. * http://webassembly.org/docs/c-and-c++/ * https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/12/compiling-to-webassembly-its-happening/ * http://cultureofdevelopment.com/blog/build-your-first-thing-with-web-assembly/ An obvious downside would be having a VM running on a VM. But WebAssembly doesn't do garbage collection so at least it wouldn't double up on that. Possibly there would be some double-up/conflict on JIT-ing, but there seems like there will be a facility for adding JIT and optimisation libraries, so possibly past investment in Cog is not lost. Also perhaps(??) while WebAssembly is in its formative stage right now some primitives can be added to facilitate how Cog operates. * http://webassembly.org/docs/future-features/#platform-independent-just-in-time-jit-compilation * http://webassembly.org/docs/jit-library/ Another approach may be to start with SqueakJS, and work out how the Cog JIT could be plugged into WebAssembly as a library that SqueakJS (and others?) could use. If its architecturally possible this might broaden the exposure of Cog(??). What would WebAssembly require to facilitate using Cog? Of course all plates are full, but now seems the ideal time time to get involved. WebAssembly browser preview seeking community feedback concluding Q1 2017. https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/11/webassembly-browser-preview http://webassembly.org/roadmap/ https://github.com/WebAssembly/design Chrome nightly builds available to test it http://thenextweb.com/dd/2016/03/15/webassembly-lands-chrome-canary-offering-glimpse-future-web/ It would be amazing to run Cog in a web browser, and thus facilitate all our favourite Smalltalk dialects. Side thought: Craig's work to incrementally download a running image could be useful to reducing web page startup time. cheers -ben |
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Hi Ben, Craig Latta had already used the SqueakJS glue to allow Cog to run in a browser. See Snowglobe (I wish it were called SnowGlobe). This allows full performance and as good a browser integration as obtained with SqueakJS. _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) > On Dec 7, 2016, at 8:05 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: > > > I've just bumped into WebAssembly and am curious what opportunities > (or not) it might offer us. > * https://medium.com/javascript-scene/what-is-webassembly-the-dawn-of-a-new-era-61256ec5a8f6#.60dghpaek > > One approach could be to just compile our currently generated C code > to WevAssembly via LLVM. Ronie's recent effort to produce a > non-display minimal VM should help proof of concept here. > * http://webassembly.org/docs/c-and-c++/ > * https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/12/compiling-to-webassembly-its-happening/ > * http://cultureofdevelopment.com/blog/build-your-first-thing-with-web-assembly/ > > An obvious downside would be having a VM running on a VM. But > WebAssembly doesn't do garbage collection so at least it wouldn't > double up on that. Possibly there would be some double-up/conflict on > JIT-ing, but there seems like there will be a facility for adding JIT > and optimisation libraries, so possibly past investment in Cog is not > lost. Also perhaps(??) while WebAssembly is in its formative stage > right now some primitives can be added to facilitate how Cog operates. > * http://webassembly.org/docs/future-features/#platform-independent-just-in-time-jit-compilation > * http://webassembly.org/docs/jit-library/ > > Another approach may be to start with SqueakJS, and work out how the > Cog JIT could be plugged into WebAssembly as a library that SqueakJS > (and others?) could use. If its architecturally possible this might > broaden the exposure of Cog(??). What would WebAssembly require to > facilitate using Cog? > > Of course all plates are full, but now seems the ideal time time to > get involved. > WebAssembly browser preview seeking community feedback concluding Q1 2017. > https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/11/webassembly-browser-preview > http://webassembly.org/roadmap/ > https://github.com/WebAssembly/design > > Chrome nightly builds available to test it > http://thenextweb.com/dd/2016/03/15/webassembly-lands-chrome-canary-offering-glimpse-future-web/ > > It would be amazing to run Cog in a web browser, and thus facilitate > all our favourite Smalltalk dialects. > > Side thought: Craig's work to incrementally download a running image > could be useful to reducing web page startup time. > > cheers -ben |
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In reply to this post by Ben Coman
Hi,
On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 5:05 AM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
One approach could be to just compile our currently generated C code It should be possible to port the StackVM to WebAssembly through LLVM, but many plugins have to be rewritten. Some people worked on making an easy to bind interface for files, display and other plugin features already, but it needs to be done. FFI plugin needs to be reimplemented too. WebAssembly is an abstract assembly, so running the VM on it kind of makes sense. It's not really running on top of a VM, it's running on top of an abstract assembler to avoid assembly back-end dependencies. An obvious downside would be having a VM running on a VM. But It's possible. You need the JIT to have a back-end to web assembly, which is some work. However, stack introspection is not possible currently (though it may be added in the future). This means that the VM needs to maintain a shadow stack for the GC to scan it with the current implementation. It requires changes in the VM that are non trivial. It would be better to wait for stack introspection to be available. Another approach may be to start with SqueakJS, and work out how the I believe it's easier to use directly the Cog compiled to web assembly. The most difficult part is to make the JIT compliant anyway.
There's already multiple things like Amber, PharoJS, SqueakJS, Craig's work. Another thing we could do: now that the JIT supports 4 sets of unsafe operations, like Ronie's lowcode or the sista instructions, we could support a DSL similar to webAssembly in Squeak/Pharo that compiles to machine code though Cog's JIT...
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In reply to this post by Eliot Miranda-2
Hard to find info on Snowglobe. Only 4 million results to compete with. Sorry to harp on my pet gripe again. The following alternatives are much more distinctive... "Snowglowbe" with only 364 results, or "Snowglobal" with 854 result, or "Snowglowbal" with only!! 1 result!!!! Maybe my parachute career should be brand consulting? So finally a four term search "cog snowglobe craig latta" found... * http://forum.world.st/App-streaming-with-Snowglobe-td4920867.html * https://thiscontext.com/2016/10/31/app-streaming-with-snowglobe/ I tried the demo. http://blackpagedigital.com/snowglobe/ Pretty impressive. The world menu is a bit sluggish for a few seconds to pop up each time, but menu item highlighting is instantaneous, as is editing in the system Browser. However mouse point is off by about 15mm at 7o'clock position. Platform is 32-bit Linux Chrome Version 48.0.2564.116. (I guess any further discussion on this would be better on squeak-dev) cheers -ben P.S. reading about "live serialization" the term "serialivation" pops in mind. On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 2:08 PM, Eliot Miranda <[hidden email]> wrote: > > Hi Ben, > > Craig Latta had already used the SqueakJS glue to allow Cog to run in a browser. See Snowglobe (I wish it were called SnowGlobe). This allows full performance and as good a browser integration as obtained with SqueakJS. > > _,,,^..^,,,_ (phone) > >> On Dec 7, 2016, at 8:05 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> >> I've just bumped into WebAssembly and am curious what opportunities >> (or not) it might offer us. >> * https://medium.com/javascript-scene/what-is-webassembly-the-dawn-of-a-new-era-61256ec5a8f6#.60dghpaek >> >> One approach could be to just compile our currently generated C code >> to WevAssembly via LLVM. Ronie's recent effort to produce a >> non-display minimal VM should help proof of concept here. >> * http://webassembly.org/docs/c-and-c++/ >> * https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/12/compiling-to-webassembly-its-happening/ >> * http://cultureofdevelopment.com/blog/build-your-first-thing-with-web-assembly/ >> >> An obvious downside would be having a VM running on a VM. But >> WebAssembly doesn't do garbage collection so at least it wouldn't >> double up on that. Possibly there would be some double-up/conflict on >> JIT-ing, but there seems like there will be a facility for adding JIT >> and optimisation libraries, so possibly past investment in Cog is not >> lost. Also perhaps(??) while WebAssembly is in its formative stage >> right now some primitives can be added to facilitate how Cog operates. >> * http://webassembly.org/docs/future-features/#platform-independent-just-in-time-jit-compilation >> * http://webassembly.org/docs/jit-library/ >> >> Another approach may be to start with SqueakJS, and work out how the >> Cog JIT could be plugged into WebAssembly as a library that SqueakJS >> (and others?) could use. If its architecturally possible this might >> broaden the exposure of Cog(??). What would WebAssembly require to >> facilitate using Cog? >> >> Of course all plates are full, but now seems the ideal time time to >> get involved. >> WebAssembly browser preview seeking community feedback concluding Q1 2017. >> https://www.infoq.com/news/2016/11/webassembly-browser-preview >> http://webassembly.org/roadmap/ >> https://github.com/WebAssembly/design >> >> Chrome nightly builds available to test it >> http://thenextweb.com/dd/2016/03/15/webassembly-lands-chrome-canary-offering-glimpse-future-web/ >> >> It would be amazing to run Cog in a web browser, and thus facilitate >> all our favourite Smalltalk dialects. >> >> Side thought: Craig's work to incrementally download a running image >> could be useful to reducing web page startup time. >> >> cheers -ben |
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Snowglobe is nice indeed. But still slow on this monster of a machine of mine. There is also this: http://blackpagedigital.com/tether/ UI page appears dead though. Phil On Thu, Dec 8, 2016 at 3:18 PM, Ben Coman <[hidden email]> wrote:
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