What are you using to write reports?

I'm working slowly through Seaside, Aida, Pharo etc. I just wonder what
you are using to make "usable" reports. (Be it in electronical form or
printed). A related question, how does you interface e.g to let's say
OpenOffice or maybe MS Office?

Thanks for suggestions.

Friedrich

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Tab-delimited text is very useful; I tend to see the world in terms of R (http://cran.r-project.org/) data frames, even when I do not plan to involve R.  HTML makes a nice way to scroll through data.  As for connecting with OpenOffice or (I can't say it<g>), I find LaTeX to be much nicer to use.  It has a steep learning curve, but the view from near the top is pretty good.




________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Friedrich Dominicus [[hidden email]]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2010 2:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Pharo-project] What are you using to write reports?

I'm working slowly through Seaside, Aida, Pharo etc. I just wonder what
you are using to make "usable" reports. (Be it in electronical form or
printed). A related question, how does you interface e.g to let's say
OpenOffice or maybe MS Office?

Thanks for suggestions.

Friedrich

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Registriernummer: HRB232138; Geschaeftsfuehrer: Friedrich Dominicus

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El mar, 31-08-2010 a las 08:13 +0200, Friedrich Dominicus escribió:
> I'm working slowly through Seaside, Aida, Pharo etc. I just wonder what
> you are using to make "usable" reports. (Be it in electronical form or
> printed). A related question, how does you interface e.g to let's say
> OpenOffice or maybe MS Office?

Several ways, with several degrees of work involved.

- Use OSProcess et al. to start a perl program that use
Spreadsheet::WriteExcel module to do the read write for example to excel
format.
- Use a internal webpage in PHP, Python, whatever that takes POST data
and writes it to a given file in the filesystem. Then your app just put
a link in seaside to download the file
- If you're in windows you can try the OLE perl module to write directly
to Office family of programs directly.

For PDF, you can:

- use some of the alternatives in the Seaside page (search the archives)
- generate html and use htmldoc program in a linux box to convert it on
the fly to pdf


Cheers


>
>
> Thanks for suggestions.
>
> Friedrich
>

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"Schwab,Wilhelm K" <[hidden email]> writes:

> Tab-delimited text is very useful; I tend to see the world in terms of
> R (http://cran.r-project.org/) data frames, even when I do not plan to
> involve R.  HTML makes a nice way to scroll through data.  As for
> connecting with OpenOffice or (I can't say it<g>), I find LaTeX to be
> much nicer to use.  It has a steep learning curve, but the view from
> near the top is pretty good.
Well I have thought about LaTex also. But you have to agree an Excel can
not make much use of a LaTex document ;-(

Regards
Friedrich

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Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez <[hidden email]> writes:

Thanks Miguel. There are a few problems with it. I use the following
languages like the plague (C++, Perl) and no I'm not willing to change
that.

> - Use a internal webpage in PHP, Python, whatever that takes POST data
> and writes it to a given file in the filesystem. Then your app just put
> a link in seaside to download the file
Hm I though about it the other way. I have my Web applicatoin and like
to get some forms in a spreadsheet format.

Anyways thanks for pointing that out to me.

Regards
Friedrich

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No, but Excel (or OpenOffice Calc) can do a nice job of slurping up tab-delimited text.  If you give it a chance, LaTeX will ruin you for word processors.  Who wants to worry about where stuff goes or in what font?  Use markup to describe what you are writing, and let the computer fuss with the details.  I can spot something typeset with LaTeX a mile away, simply by its (invariably) superior page design, something that requires no thought at all.



________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Friedrich Dominicus [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What are you using to write reports?

"Schwab,Wilhelm K" <[hidden email]> writes:

> Tab-delimited text is very useful; I tend to see the world in terms of
> R (http://cran.r-project.org/) data frames, even when I do not plan to
> involve R.  HTML makes a nice way to scroll through data.  As for
> connecting with OpenOffice or (I can't say it<g>), I find LaTeX to be
> much nicer to use.  It has a steep learning curve, but the view from
> near the top is pretty good.
Well I have thought about LaTex also. But you have to agree an Excel can
not make much use of a LaTex document ;-(

Regards
Friedrich

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If you must push into Excel (it's far easier to let it import from text), you will be using Windows, and therefore could perhaps create something with VBA.  VBA for Dummies is a good book; get it with the CD and read what is on the latter (trust me).  Know that VBA is designed with what Steve Jobs so aptly called (referring to MS in general) "no taste."  But with lots of reverse engineering, it is possible to create documents and add cells.  Again, it makes a lot more sense to write text and let Excel import it.

OpenOffice has some type of (Java??) scripting interface.  That might be a little better and perhaps even friendlier than MS' offerings and might then be induced to create .xls files.

Bill


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Friedrich Dominicus [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 1:32 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What are you using to write reports?

Miguel Enrique Cobá Martínez <[hidden email]> writes:

Thanks Miguel. There are a few problems with it. I use the following
languages like the plague (C++, Perl) and no I'm not willing to change
that.

> - Use a internal webpage in PHP, Python, whatever that takes POST data
> and writes it to a given file in the filesystem. Then your app just put
> a link in seaside to download the file
Hm I though about it the other way. I have my Web applicatoin and like
to get some forms in a spreadsheet format.

Anyways thanks for pointing that out to me.

Regards
Friedrich

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Friedrich Dominicus wrote:
> Well I have thought about LaTex also. But you have to agree an Excel can
> not make much use of a LaTex document ;-(

If you really want MS Excel, then you can easily reverse-engineer the
XML format that MS Excel (optionally) uses. Not so long ago, on a paid
job, I wrote code to emit report data in an XML format of my choosing.
Then an xslt transformation was used to turn it into the XML format that
MS Excel could use.

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"Schwab,Wilhelm K" <[hidden email]> writes:

> If you must push into Excel (it's far easier to let it import from
> text), you will be using Windows, and therefore could perhaps create
> something with VBA.
I'm usin VBA currently, the problem with it is that MS want to get away
from it. And so I should probably long for something with .NET in it's
name. But well if MS wants to get rid of it, one day we may stay in the
rains as e.g the VB6 people have been treated. Sure currently MS is all
just .NET (in whatever) shadow. But nobody knows how long, and let's be
honest who likes to write the same software over and over and over again
just because the development tools and/or languages were deprecated.

And let's be honest a second time. MS-Office is the Standard by any
means. Yes there is LaTex and yes there is OpenOffice but sorry if
anyone talks about Office Software they mean MS-Office. And we have to
admit that the MS-Office tools are extremly useful, especially Excel is
quite good at that spreadsheets can do ;-)



>
> OpenOffice has some type of (Java??) scripting interface.  That might
> be a little better and perhaps even friendlier than MS' offerings and
> might then be induced to create .xls files.
Well VBA and Excel is well working, I doubt that OpenOffice Basic can
compete with it.

Regards
Friedrich

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On Wed, Sep 01, 2010 at 09:09:07AM +0200, Friedrich Dominicus wrote:
>"Schwab,Wilhelm K" <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>And let's be honest a second time. MS-Office is the Standard by any
>means. Yes there is LaTex and yes there is OpenOffice but sorry if
>anyone talks about Office Software they mean MS-Office. And we have to
>admit that the MS-Office tools are extremly useful, especially Excel is
>quite good at that spreadsheets can do ;-)
>

I don't think there is some one who is not honest in this topic.
M$-Office is *popular* doesn't mean that it's the standard.  Talking
about office suite doesn't imply that it's the office suite from M$,
except for the situation that you were grown in a M$'s dominated
education system.  What feature makes OpenOffice.org not useful?  Except
for just not being able to perfectly handle M$'s proprietary format?
Have you ever used OpenOffice.org Calc for your own sake?

>>
>> OpenOffice has some type of (Java??) scripting interface.  That might
>> be a little better and perhaps even friendlier than MS' offerings and
>> might then be induced to create .xls files.
>Well VBA and Excel is well working, I doubt that OpenOffice Basic can
>compete with it.
>

Oh, I didn't know that OpenOffice.org Basic is a spreadsheet software.
I doubt I've ever heard of its name as an spreadsheet application.  M$
Excel just works with its own closed source VBA version, my
OpenOffice.org Calc works with VBA, Python, and Java scripting
languages.  I've never spent a lot of time writing and maintaining
source code with Python as with VB.  What makes it not a good competitor
to M$ Excel?

Best regards,
--
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Life is a hack


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Hi Friedrick,

In Aida and specially Scribo CMS we now support the commercial Prince
PDF generator (http://www.princexml.com). Prince converts HTML + CSS3
into nicelly formated printable documents, with page numbers, Table of
contents with page numbers and such things, necessary for professionally
looking documents, while reatining the original documents in strictly
standard HTML/CSS format. Prince is developed with help of one of
authors of CSS standard, so you can expect the true support as advertised.

For less "professional" printing Aida supports the print CSS separation
from screen CSS, so you can do quite good printouts with pure HTML/CSS,
as much as web browsers printing support allows.

That printing support is not very complete, but my company anyway print
all our documents that way, from bills, letters etc, so it is good
enough for most cases. If a customer really need better one, then you
"scale" to Prince.

Best regards
Janko


>> El mar, 31-08-2010 a las 08:13 +0200, Friedrich Dominicus escribió:
>>> I'm working slowly through Seaside, Aida, Pharo etc. I just wonder what
>>> you are using to make "usable" reports. (Be it in electronical form or
>>> printed). A related question, how does you interface e.g to let's say
>>> OpenOffice or maybe MS Office?


--
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AIDA/Web
Smalltalk Web Application Server
http://www.aidaweb.si

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No argument that MS wants to kill COM in favor of .NET, and once they do that, they will churn the market again as soon as they can manage it - it's what they do.  They've been sufficiently ineffective at it that the result is hardly "writing software over and over" but it is very annoying to watch working things break over time.  These annoyances combined with the general merit of Linux distributions of late led me to make the switch.  In short, you are preaching to the choir :)

Let's be honest a third time :)  Word is trash.  Open Office Calc is really pretty good.  Since you (wisely) distrust Microsoft, I find it strange that you are content to throw around the "Office is standard" mantra.  True or not, there are alternatives (in the case of LaTeX, a paradigm shift from fussing with formatting to thinking about structure) and ways to have data in simple formats that will still be around long after Microsoft starts to kill off .NET's successor.  You can set yourself up for more pain, or design for the minimum amount of Microsoft involvement that will solve your problems.  There are some good options in this thread, or you can polish up your .NET compiler, while it still has time ;)

Good luck!

Bill


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Friedrich Dominicus [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 3:09 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What are you using to write reports?

"Schwab,Wilhelm K" <[hidden email]> writes:

> If you must push into Excel (it's far easier to let it import from
> text), you will be using Windows, and therefore could perhaps create
> something with VBA.
I'm usin VBA currently, the problem with it is that MS want to get away
from it. And so I should probably long for something with .NET in it's
name. But well if MS wants to get rid of it, one day we may stay in the
rains as e.g the VB6 people have been treated. Sure currently MS is all
just .NET (in whatever) shadow. But nobody knows how long, and let's be
honest who likes to write the same software over and over and over again
just because the development tools and/or languages were deprecated.

And let's be honest a second time. MS-Office is the Standard by any
means. Yes there is LaTex and yes there is OpenOffice but sorry if
anyone talks about Office Software they mean MS-Office. And we have to
admit that the MS-Office tools are extremly useful, especially Excel is
quite good at that spreadsheets can do ;-)



>
> OpenOffice has some type of (Java??) scripting interface.  That might
> be a little better and perhaps even friendlier than MS' offerings and
> might then be induced to create .xls files.
Well VBA and Excel is well working, I doubt that OpenOffice Basic can
compete with it.

Regards
Friedrich

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Registriernummer: HRB232138; Geschaeftsfuehrer: Friedrich Dominicus

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Yang Nguyen,

This reads as though you are responding to *me* as the MS junkie.  For the record, I have been making the point that there are (generally superior) alternatives to MS software, and I never referred to "OpenOffice Basic."   Please direct your advice to Friedrich Dominicus, who is either seeking it or perhaps just trolling.

Bill


________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yang Ha Nguyen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 4:05 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What are you using to write reports?

On Wed, Sep 01, 2010 at 09:09:07AM +0200, Friedrich Dominicus wrote:
>"Schwab,Wilhelm K" <[hidden email]> writes:
>
>And let's be honest a second time. MS-Office is the Standard by any
>means. Yes there is LaTex and yes there is OpenOffice but sorry if
>anyone talks about Office Software they mean MS-Office. And we have to
>admit that the MS-Office tools are extremly useful, especially Excel is
>quite good at that spreadsheets can do ;-)
>

I don't think there is some one who is not honest in this topic.
M$-Office is *popular* doesn't mean that it's the standard.  Talking
about office suite doesn't imply that it's the office suite from M$,
except for the situation that you were grown in a M$'s dominated
education system.  What feature makes OpenOffice.org not useful?  Except
for just not being able to perfectly handle M$'s proprietary format?
Have you ever used OpenOffice.org Calc for your own sake?

>>
>> OpenOffice has some type of (Java??) scripting interface.  That might
>> be a little better and perhaps even friendlier than MS' offerings and
>> might then be induced to create .xls files.
>Well VBA and Excel is well working, I doubt that OpenOffice Basic can
>compete with it.
>

Oh, I didn't know that OpenOffice.org Basic is a spreadsheet software.
I doubt I've ever heard of its name as an spreadsheet application.  M$
Excel just works with its own closed source VBA version, my
OpenOffice.org Calc works with VBA, Python, and Java scripting
languages.  I've never spent a lot of time writing and maintaining
source code with Python as with VB.  What makes it not a good competitor
to M$ Excel?

Best regards,
--
Yang Nguyen
Life is a hack


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Hi Wilhelm Schwab,

I think you have misunderstood me.  I was quoting Friedrich's message
and responsing to him, even before your reply, since he has been being
subjective about the point.  Personal taste doesn't mean to be
subjective.

On Wed, Sep 01, 2010 at 10:10:20AM -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Best regards,
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I understood you; I don't want others misunderstanding you; please reply to Friedrich so it is clear.  In the good old days, before Novel and Microsoft made most of the email clients in use, there were ways to properly quote text with attribution to the authors in a way that worked.  BTW, I don't top-post because I think it's a good idea, I do it because our garbage email system can't do otherwise (I've looked, the options don't exist).  I've been stuck with one or another broken system for years now :(   But, it's **standard** ;)




________________________________________
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Yang Ha Nguyen [[hidden email]]
Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 2010 10:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Pharo-project] What are you using to write reports?

Hi Wilhelm Schwab,

I think you have misunderstood me.  I was quoting Friedrich's message
and responsing to him, even before your reply, since he has been being
subjective about the point.  Personal taste doesn't mean to be
subjective.

On Wed, Sep 01, 2010 at 10:10:20AM -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
Best regards,
--
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On Wed, Sep 01, 2010 at 11:07:51AM -0400, Schwab,Wilhelm K wrote:
>I understood you; I don't want others misunderstanding you; please reply to Friedrich so it is clear.  In the good old days, before Novel and Microsoft made most of the email clients in use, there were ways to properly quote text with attribution to the authors in a way that worked.  BTW, I don't top-post because I think it's a good idea, I do it because our garbage email system can't do otherwise (I've looked, the options don't exist).  I've been stuck with one or another broken system for years now :(   But, it's **standard** ;)
>

Wilhelm,

Got it, thank you very much :-).

Regards,
--
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Life is a hack


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Yang Ha Nguyen <[hidden email]> writes:

>
> Oh, I didn't know that OpenOffice.org Basic is a spreadsheet software.
Did not wrote it's software. It was about scripting the OpenOffice
packages.
> I doubt I've ever heard of its name as an spreadsheet application.  M$
> Excel just works with its own closed source VBA version, my
> OpenOffice.org Calc works with VBA, Python, and Java scripting
> languages.  
I did not know that Calc works with VBA. I though it was the Basic of
OpenOffice itself.

>I've never spent a lot of time writing and maintaining
> source code with Python as with VB.  What makes it not a good competitor
> to M$ Excel?
I'm fully with you, but my customers not. They use MS software every day
in every form you can imagine. That I post here suggests that I'm not
"bound" to it but it's probably important for my customers....

So not pun intended for any other tool besided MS-Office tools. It's
just what my customers are used to....

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"Schwab,Wilhelm K" <[hidden email]> writes:

> No argument that MS wants to kill COM in favor of .NET, and once they
> do that, they will churn the market again as soon as they can manage
> it - it's what they do.
Well yes, I'm afraid you're right about it.


> They've been sufficiently ineffective at it
> that the result is hardly "writing software over and over" but it is
> very annoying to watch working things break over time.
Well that *is* the biggest problem for "independent" software developers
not owning either MS ;-(, Java, or whatever.


>  These
> annoyances combined with the general merit of Linux distributions of
> late led me to make the switch.  In short, you are preaching to the
> choir :)
I'm using Linux since the Floppy days. But my customers won't they will
probably stick to MS well for the next forseeable or not so forseeable
future.
>
> Let's be honest a third time :)  Word is trash.
Well agreed, it may have get better since Word 6.0 but that was an
accident waiting to be happen. I remember having written chapter of my
degrees one by one and just throw it together at the end. I was not
allowed to use LaTeX to that time... Well now I have the choice, but
I've to get my customers with me....



>  Open Office Calc is really pretty good.  Since you (wisely) distrust
>  Microsoft, I find it strange that you are content to throw around the
>  "Office is standard" mantra.  
Sorry, none of my customers uses anything but MS Office. So it's
"standard" for them.


> True or not, there are alternatives (in the case of LaTeX, a paradigm
> shift from fussing with formatting to thinking about structure) and
> ways to have data in simple formats that will still be around long
> after Microsoft starts to kill off .NET's successor.
Well guess what my first idea was. Using some Smalltalk and using LaTeX
for the diverse invoices etc. Maybe this was not so unsound....


>  You can set
> yourself up for more pain, or design for the minimum amount of
> Microsoft involvement that will solve your problems.  There are some
> good options in this thread, or you can polish up your .NET compiler,
> while it still has time ;)
Thanks for such kind of encouragement ;-(

Regards
Friedrich


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Janko Mivšek <[hidden email]> writes:

Thank you very much for that suggestion.


Regards
Friedrich

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Hi Friedrich,

On Wed, Sep 01, 2010 at 07:40:33PM +0200, Friedrich Dominicus wrote:
I see.  Open source has been having many problems with business for
years.  And it seems like there would be no thorough solution for it in
near future.  Your customers don't have the freedom in software, thus
restrict your freedom in software as well.

Best regards,
--
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Web log: http://cmpitg.wordpress.com/
Life is a hack


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