What's over the horizon?

>> Get rid of MVC. Replace morphic with something actually
>> a) designed
>> b) documented
>> c) using hardware on most platforms to do fonts and most drawing  
>> with  vectors instead of pixmaps.
>
> Does everyone feel that the MVC/MVP paradym is not a good one?  
> Dolphin's MVP seemed quite good to me.
>
> For some of these things, it might be good to work out a kind of  
> spec for what is expected for these systems we want upgraded so  
> that if anyone is looking for a project they can pick it up and  
> know what the goal is.

> JJ-
>
>>> Get rid of MVC. Replace morphic with something actually
>>> a) designed
>>> b) documented
>>> c) using hardware on most platforms to do fonts and most drawing  
>>> with  vectors instead of pixmaps.
>>
>> Does everyone feel that the MVC/MVP paradym is not a good one?  
>> Dolphin's MVP seemed quite good to me.
>>
>> For some of these things, it might be good to work out a kind of  
>> spec for what is expected for these systems we want upgraded so  
>> that if anyone is looking for a project they can pick it up and  
>> know what the goal is.
>
> I know that your response might not be to what Tim meant, but just  
> a response/question in general, but in the case it isn't- he isn't  
> talking about killing off the MVC paradigm.

>
> On 1-Apr-07, at 8:14 PM, Jerome Peace wrote:
>
>> What's over the horizon?
>
> New VM. New image.
> Fixed compiled method format.
> Proper source accessors.
> Decent change recording.
> Immutable objects.
> Little-endian bitmaps instead of 'nobody uses big endian anymore'  
> current format. Probably same for Floats.
> Get rid of MVC. Replace morphic with something actually
> a) designed
> b) documented
> c) using hardware on most platforms to do fonts and most drawing  
> with vectors instead of pixmaps.
> Replace current tragically poor browser code with properly written  
> classes.
> Thousands upon thousands of tests, with comments and explanations.
>
> Give me ten million euros.
>
> tim
> --
> tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
> Useful Latin Phrases:- Mihi ignosce. Cum homine de cane debeo  
> congredi = Excuse me. I've got to see a man about a dog.
>
>
>
>

>
> Wellllll..... I'd have to dispute that somewhat. My 600MHz RISC OS
> machine (same cpu as many PDAs) really doesn't do to well with Morphic.
> Now morphic is a fine idea in a lot of ways but substantial chunks of
> the implementation simply blow chunks. Part of the problem is that old
> issue of lack of doc leading to people abusing the classes and then that
> bad code getting enthroned as an example to later unfortunates. Tweak
> has some nice ideas too, but to be honest it's been driving us nuts a
> lot of the time over in SophieLand. Debugging..... aargh!
>

> tim Rowledge wrote:
>>
>> Wellllll..... I'd have to dispute that somewhat. My 600MHz RISC OS  
>> machine (same cpu as many PDAs) really doesn't do to well with  
>> Morphic. Now morphic is a fine idea in a lot of ways but  
>> substantial chunks of the implementation simply blow chunks. Part  
>> of the problem is that old issue of lack of doc leading to people  
>> abusing the classes and then that bad code getting enthroned as an  
>> example to later unfortunates. Tweak has some nice ideas too, but  
>> to be honest it's been driving us nuts a lot of the time over in  
>> SophieLand. Debugging..... aargh!
>
> Tim,
>
> do you think Tweak is harder to debug than Morphic and could you  
> explain how or why it is so hard? I have not used Tweak myself yet  
> because of the uncertainty that comes with its future (at least  
> from my point of view) but I had high hopes on it.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>

> Hi martin
>
> Some sophiers told me that indeed debugging tweak app is nearly impossible.
> what I heard is that there are far too much emitted signals. So there  
> are compressed
> so if you have a stream A X B Y Z C emitted you get
> ABC XYZ
>
> Stef
>

> Hi Stephane,
>
> if "debugging a Tweak app is nearly impossible" it should be nearly  
> impossible to develop with Tweak. That makes me even more curious.  
> I think I don't really understand the explanation you cite here.
>
> Has it to do with what
>
> http://tweakproject.org/TECHNOLOGY/Whitepapers/TweakEventDebugging
>
> describes, i.e. that the series of events that led to the initial  
> message in the debugger is unknown and only from there on the  
> debugger shows you a "hierarchical event cascade" which you can  
> build up manually?
>
> Is it the "causal ordering of triggered messages" of that cascade  
> which is described on that page too?
>
> Is the control flow generally hard to follow because too much is  
> done with events? Or may the mental effort to "dive into the  
> triggering process" in one method and come up in another one be too  
> high?
>
> Or is it something else?
>
> To all: These questions are of course not only directed to Stephane.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
> stephane ducasse wrote:
>> Hi martin
>> Some sophiers told me that indeed debugging tweak app is nearly  
>> impossible.
>> what I heard is that there are far too much emitted signals. So  
>> there  are compressed
>> so if you have a stream A X B Y Z C emitted you get
>> ABC XYZ
>> Stef
>
>

> I find developing UIs with Tweak pleasant - the largest I worked on was
> Etoys 2. Many things work much nicer than other UI frameworks I've used.
> For example, the coalescing of events is not something that I had
> problems with - but others find it confusing, and I wouldn't rule out
> completely that there are still bugs lurking in there.
>
> That said, if something goes wrong it indeed is hard to follow what
> happened in the debugger. IMHO this is mainly due to not enough usage it
> gets - the Morphic tools are useful and mature only because they were
> used and improved in day-to-day work by its developers. Nobody spent
> much time on the Tweak tools yet. E.g., the Sophie developers could not
> spend time on improving the tools because they were too busy developing
> Sophie (which also is much more complex UI-wise than your regular app).
>
> I'd suggest you just try it for some project. Tweak is well and alive as
> the default 2D UI in Croquet so I wouldn't worry about it vanishing any
> time soon.
>
> - Bert -
>

>From: Martin Wirblat <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: [hidden email], The general-purpose Squeak developers
>list<[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: What's over the horizon?
>Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:57:14 +0200
>
>Bert,
>
>thanks for responding. I think people don't worry so much about Tweak
>vanishing but they feel unsure if they should bet on it for "non-Croquet"
>2d-only applications.
>
>Learning a new UI-framework and porting an app or making a new one with it
>is a considerable investment. For many Squeakers this would probably
>involve the decision to switch to Croquet from Squeak and not try to ride
>two horses at the same time. But you wouldn't like to find out later that
>today Tweak is only thought as a minimal 2d-support for Croquet and not
>anymore as the successor of Morphic for something like Squeak.
>
>I just learned about the new Croquet release as an alternative to the image
>of the somewhat stale tweakproject.org site.
>
>So which of the following images should one use to start with?
>
>- iTweak-3.8-6665.zip from tweakproject.org or
>- CroquetSDK-1.0.18/deployment/Homebase.image
>   which can load the Tweak system from a MC repository.
>
>Regards,
>Martin
>
>
>
>Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>I find developing UIs with Tweak pleasant - the largest I worked on was
>>Etoys 2. Many things work much nicer than other UI frameworks I've used.
>>For example, the coalescing of events is not something that I had problems
>>with - but others find it confusing, and I wouldn't rule out completely
>>that there are still bugs lurking in there.
>>
>>That said, if something goes wrong it indeed is hard to follow what
>>happened in the debugger. IMHO this is mainly due to not enough usage it
>>gets - the Morphic tools are useful and mature only because they were used
>>and improved in day-to-day work by its developers. Nobody spent much time
>>on the Tweak tools yet. E.g., the Sophie developers could not spend time
>>on improving the tools because they were too busy developing Sophie (which
>>also is much more complex UI-wise than your regular app).
>>
>>I'd suggest you just try it for some project. Tweak is well and alive as
>>the default 2D UI in Croquet so I wouldn't worry about it vanishing any
>>time soon.
>>
>>- Bert -
>>
>
>
>

> Bert,
>
> thanks for responding. I think people don't worry so much about  
> Tweak vanishing but they feel unsure if they should bet on it for  
> "non-Croquet" 2d-only applications.
>
> Learning a new UI-framework and porting an app or making a new one  
> with it is a considerable investment. For many Squeakers this would  
> probably involve the decision to switch to Croquet from Squeak and  
> not try to ride two horses at the same time. But you wouldn't like  
> to find out later that today Tweak is only thought as a minimal 2d-
> support for Croquet and not anymore as the successor of Morphic for  
> something like Squeak.
>
> I just learned about the new Croquet release as an alternative to  
> the image of the somewhat stale tweakproject.org site.
>
> So which of the following images should one use to start with?
>
> - iTweak-3.8-6665.zip from tweakproject.org or
> - CroquetSDK-1.0.18/deployment/Homebase.image
>   which can load the Tweak system from a MC repository.
>
> Regards,
> Martin
>
>
>
> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>> I find developing UIs with Tweak pleasant - the largest I worked  
>> on was Etoys 2. Many things work much nicer than other UI  
>> frameworks I've used. For example, the coalescing of events is not  
>> something that I had problems with - but others find it confusing,  
>> and I wouldn't rule out completely that there are still bugs  
>> lurking in there.
>> That said, if something goes wrong it indeed is hard to follow  
>> what happened in the debugger. IMHO this is mainly due to not  
>> enough usage it gets - the Morphic tools are useful and mature  
>> only because they were used and improved in day-to-day work by its  
>> developers. Nobody spent much time on the Tweak tools yet. E.g.,  
>> the Sophie developers could not spend time on improving the tools  
>> because they were too busy developing Sophie (which also is much  
>> more complex UI-wise than your regular app).
>> I'd suggest you just try it for some project. Tweak is well and  
>> alive as the default 2D UI in Croquet so I wouldn't worry about it  
>> vanishing any time soon.
>> - Bert -
>
>
>

> Is there some reason we can't just load Tweak in a regular Squeak  
> 3.9/10 image?
>
>
>> From: Martin Wirblat <[hidden email]>
>> Reply-To: [hidden email], The general-purpose Squeak  
>> developers list<[hidden email]>
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: What's over the horizon?
>> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:57:14 +0200
>>
>> Bert,
>>
>> thanks for responding. I think people don't worry so much about  
>> Tweak vanishing but they feel unsure if they should bet on it for  
>> "non-Croquet" 2d-only applications.
>>
>> Learning a new UI-framework and porting an app or making a new one  
>> with it is a considerable investment. For many Squeakers this  
>> would probably involve the decision to switch to Croquet from  
>> Squeak and not try to ride two horses at the same time. But you  
>> wouldn't like to find out later that today Tweak is only thought  
>> as a minimal 2d-support for Croquet and not anymore as the  
>> successor of Morphic for something like Squeak.
>>
>> I just learned about the new Croquet release as an alternative to  
>> the image of the somewhat stale tweakproject.org site.
>>
>> So which of the following images should one use to start with?
>>
>> - iTweak-3.8-6665.zip from tweakproject.org or
>> - CroquetSDK-1.0.18/deployment/Homebase.image
>>   which can load the Tweak system from a MC repository.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Martin
>>
>>
>>
>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>> I find developing UIs with Tweak pleasant - the largest I worked  
>>> on was Etoys 2. Many things work much nicer than other UI  
>>> frameworks I've used. For example, the coalescing of events is  
>>> not something that I had problems with - but others find it  
>>> confusing, and I wouldn't rule out completely that there are  
>>> still bugs lurking in there.
>>>
>>> That said, if something goes wrong it indeed is hard to follow  
>>> what happened in the debugger. IMHO this is mainly due to not  
>>> enough usage it gets - the Morphic tools are useful and mature  
>>> only because they were used and improved in day-to-day work by  
>>> its developers. Nobody spent much time on the Tweak tools yet.  
>>> E.g., the Sophie developers could not spend time on improving the  
>>> tools because they were too busy developing Sophie (which also is  
>>> much more complex UI-wise than your regular app).
>>>
>>> I'd suggest you just try it for some project. Tweak is well and  
>>> alive as the default 2D UI in Croquet so I wouldn't worry about  
>>> it vanishing any time soon.
>>>
>>> - Bert -

>From: Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers
>list<[hidden email]>
>To: The general-purpose Squeak developers
>list<[hidden email]>
>Subject: Re: What's over the horizon?
>Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:45:26 +0200
>
>Try :)
>
>Tweak builds an extended object system on top of Squeak. It depends  on
>certain meta class protocols that might have changed since 3.8. It  took
>much effort to port from 3.6 to 3.8. Maybe porting to 3.9 would  be simpler
>(one goal of the 3.9 team was making "meta" experiments  easier), but I
>would not bet on it.
>
>- Bert -
>
>On Apr 12, 2007, at 21:28 , J J wrote:
>
>>Is there some reason we can't just load Tweak in a regular Squeak  3.9/10
>>image?
>>
>>
>>>From: Martin Wirblat <[hidden email]>
>>>Reply-To: [hidden email], The general-purpose Squeak  developers
>>>list<[hidden email]>
>>>To: [hidden email]
>>>Subject: Re: What's over the horizon?
>>>Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:57:14 +0200
>>>
>>>Bert,
>>>
>>>thanks for responding. I think people don't worry so much about  Tweak
>>>vanishing but they feel unsure if they should bet on it for  
>>>"non-Croquet" 2d-only applications.
>>>
>>>Learning a new UI-framework and porting an app or making a new one  with
>>>it is a considerable investment. For many Squeakers this  would probably
>>>involve the decision to switch to Croquet from  Squeak and not try to
>>>ride two horses at the same time. But you  wouldn't like to find out
>>>later that today Tweak is only thought  as a minimal 2d-support for
>>>Croquet and not anymore as the  successor of Morphic for something like
>>>Squeak.
>>>
>>>I just learned about the new Croquet release as an alternative to  the
>>>image of the somewhat stale tweakproject.org site.
>>>
>>>So which of the following images should one use to start with?
>>>
>>>- iTweak-3.8-6665.zip from tweakproject.org or
>>>- CroquetSDK-1.0.18/deployment/Homebase.image
>>>   which can load the Tweak system from a MC repository.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>Martin
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>>>I find developing UIs with Tweak pleasant - the largest I worked  on was
>>>>Etoys 2. Many things work much nicer than other UI  frameworks I've
>>>>used. For example, the coalescing of events is  not something that I had
>>>>problems with - but others find it  confusing, and I wouldn't rule out
>>>>completely that there are  still bugs lurking in there.
>>>>
>>>>That said, if something goes wrong it indeed is hard to follow  what
>>>>happened in the debugger. IMHO this is mainly due to not  enough usage
>>>>it gets - the Morphic tools are useful and mature  only because they
>>>>were used and improved in day-to-day work by  its developers. Nobody
>>>>spent much time on the Tweak tools yet.  E.g., the Sophie developers
>>>>could not spend time on improving the  tools because they were too busy
>>>>developing Sophie (which also is  much more complex UI-wise than your
>>>>regular app).
>>>>
>>>>I'd suggest you just try it for some project. Tweak is well and  alive
>>>>as the default 2D UI in Croquet so I wouldn't worry about  it vanishing
>>>>any time soon.
>>>>
>>>>- Bert -
>
>
>
>
>

> Aha, this is what I was curious about.  I looked a little at the  
> tweak site a few times.  Does it talk about this extended object  
> system and what it does?  Or is this for the async message stuff?
>
> Thanks,
> Jason
>
>
>> From: Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>
>> Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak-
>> [hidden email]>
>> To: The general-purpose Squeak developers list<squeak-
>> [hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: What's over the horizon?
>> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 21:45:26 +0200
>>
>> Try :)
>>
>> Tweak builds an extended object system on top of Squeak. It  
>> depends  on certain meta class protocols that might have changed  
>> since 3.8. It  took much effort to port from 3.6 to 3.8. Maybe  
>> porting to 3.9 would  be simpler (one goal of the 3.9 team was  
>> making "meta" experiments  easier), but I would not bet on it.
>>
>> - Bert -
>>
>> On Apr 12, 2007, at 21:28 , J J wrote:
>>
>>> Is there some reason we can't just load Tweak in a regular  
>>> Squeak  3.9/10 image?
>>>
>>>
>>>> From: Martin Wirblat <[hidden email]>
>>>> Reply-To: [hidden email], The general-purpose Squeak  
>>>> developers list<[hidden email]>
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Subject: Re: What's over the horizon?
>>>> Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 12:57:14 +0200
>>>>
>>>> Bert,
>>>>
>>>> thanks for responding. I think people don't worry so much about  
>>>> Tweak vanishing but they feel unsure if they should bet on it  
>>>> for  "non-Croquet" 2d-only applications.
>>>>
>>>> Learning a new UI-framework and porting an app or making a new  
>>>> one  with it is a considerable investment. For many Squeakers  
>>>> this  would probably involve the decision to switch to Croquet  
>>>> from  Squeak and not try to ride two horses at the same time.  
>>>> But you  wouldn't like to find out later that today Tweak is  
>>>> only thought  as a minimal 2d-support for Croquet and not  
>>>> anymore as the  successor of Morphic for something like Squeak.
>>>>
>>>> I just learned about the new Croquet release as an alternative  
>>>> to  the image of the somewhat stale tweakproject.org site.
>>>>
>>>> So which of the following images should one use to start with?
>>>>
>>>> - iTweak-3.8-6665.zip from tweakproject.org or
>>>> - CroquetSDK-1.0.18/deployment/Homebase.image
>>>>   which can load the Tweak system from a MC repository.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Martin
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Bert Freudenberg wrote:
>>>>> I find developing UIs with Tweak pleasant - the largest I  
>>>>> worked  on was Etoys 2. Many things work much nicer than other  
>>>>> UI  frameworks I've used. For example, the coalescing of events  
>>>>> is  not something that I had problems with - but others find  
>>>>> it  confusing, and I wouldn't rule out completely that there  
>>>>> are  still bugs lurking in there.
>>>>>
>>>>> That said, if something goes wrong it indeed is hard to follow  
>>>>> what happened in the debugger. IMHO this is mainly due to not  
>>>>> enough usage it gets - the Morphic tools are useful and mature  
>>>>> only because they were used and improved in day-to-day work by  
>>>>> its developers. Nobody spent much time on the Tweak tools yet.  
>>>>> E.g., the Sophie developers could not spend time on improving  
>>>>> the  tools because they were too busy developing Sophie (which  
>>>>> also is  much more complex UI-wise than your regular app).
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd suggest you just try it for some project. Tweak is well  
>>>>> and  alive as the default 2D UI in Croquet so I wouldn't worry  
>>>>> about  it vanishing any time soon.
>>>>>
>>>>> - Bert -
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Exercise your brain! Try Flexicon. http://games.msn.com/en/flexicon/ 
> default.htm?icid=flexicon_hmemailtaglineapril07
>
>

> El 4/12/07 4:45 PM, "Bert Freudenberg" <[hidden email]>  
> escribió:
>
>> Try :)
>>
>> Tweak builds an extended object system on top of Squeak. It depends
>> on certain meta class protocols that might have changed since 3.8. It
>> took much effort to port from 3.6 to 3.8. Maybe porting to 3.9 would
>> be simpler (one goal of the 3.9 team was making "meta" experiments
>> easier), but I would not bet on it.
>>
>> - Bert -
>
> And where I could find the last .mcz for do the experiment ?
> Any advice , things to look ?

>From: Bert Freudenberg <[hidden email]>
>Reply-To: The general-purpose Squeak developers
>list<[hidden email]>
>To: The general-purpose Squeak developers
>list<[hidden email]>
>Subject: Tweak (was Re: What's over the horizon?)
>Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2007 22:15:05 +0200
>
>There is some documentation for these basics on the Tweak site. I'd  
>suggest just diving in though. Like, the bank account tutorial is  more
>interesting than it sounds ;)