Whats Happening with 3.10. And how is it going to proceed?

This is mostly to the board and the 3.10 team.

A new year naturally brings questions about
resolutions and time lines.

Is 3.10 going to be time boxed?
If so what are the timelines and deliveralbles?

So far the 3.10 folder on the ftp site is empty.
Can the 3.10alpha image be placed there?
That would be one easy deliveralbe.


My wishes for the new year are that:

-whatever process is evolved to assembling 3.9 that an
update stream would be established as a last word.
This would allow fixes to be added ontop of assembled
modules and allow them to be tried by many quickly so
that their strengths and weaknesses can be found and
provide feedback. And so the knowledge they entail can
help all who are developing squeak learn as Tim
mentions "early and often".

This is basicly the McCready prize winning model of
development. You can build a prize winning plane out
of balsawood and piano wire. You just have to crash it
quickly and often enoung on the way to the finish
line.

---------

-my other wish is there would be a "full" image team.
These fine folks would be responsible for deciding
what packages would be released as "3.10" full.  One
of the tests for the release is that these packages
could be loaded and work as the 3.10 basic image goes
along.

I suspect the "full" team will have to be different
people from the "3.10 release" team. The
responsibilities will be different. And the roles will
be different as well. With the "full" team being
"customers" for the release.

No one expects things to go as initially planned. The
dynamic between teams would encourage the right kind
of communication about the projects.

---------

-My final wish is to, as soon as possible, get back to
a state where version histories are present enough so
those of us who bug track have a way of finding out
when and how things changed. Who changed them. And a
good chance of guessing why and with what intent. I am
indeed having difficulty with that with 3.9-7067.


I have put a lot of ideas into just one email because
they are related. Feel free to respond to them
separately if it pleases you.

Please help us follow things by modifying the subject
field as the focus of the replies change.

Thank you.

Yours in curiosity and service, -- Jerome Peace

   







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Jerome Peace wrote:
What do you exactly mean when you ask for a "full" image ?

I see Squeak more like a base system on which you can install what you
want. I don't see the point of delivering an image with TextToSpeech
installed for web developers for example.

It would be more interesting in my opinion to have different Squeak
"distributions":

- Squeak for Developers: like squeak-dev image. I can help for this.
- Squeak for Teachers
- Squeak for Children
-...

Damien Cassou puso en su mail :

As part of release team, I said read, edit, feedback , etc
http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/5908

Also I said what in
ftp://[hidden email]/Public/Squeak3.10alpha.7069.
zip
password: elpelotero
(09:00 to 20:00 GMT roughly)

This beginner user ready image (or close) hope soon goes to official ftp
site and the update process start.

All subject to Professor Johnson confirm / changes, off course.

On top , you could load via Universes.
No SqueakMap now, but yes Installer.
At this time we keep Etoys as EToysReloaded is under investigation and I
claim you could use 95% of what runs into 3.7.

Regards.
Edgar



       

       
               
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On 1/7/07, Jerome Peace <[hidden email]> wrote:
> This is mostly to the board and the 3.10 team.
>
> A new year naturally brings questions about
> resolutions and time lines.
>
> Is 3.10 going to be time boxed?
> If so what are the timelines and deliveralbles?

According to my proposal, the alpha will be in January and the final
will be in June.

There is a mailing list [hidden email] for talking
about 3.10 and everybody who is even slightly interested is welcome to
join it.

> So far the 3.10 folder on the ftp site is empty.
> Can the 3.10alpha image be placed there?
> That would be one easy deliveralbe.

An image is easy.  Edgar has been making them for several months.  I
want to make sure that things like the update process and the testing
process are in place.

> My wishes for the new year are that:
>
> -whatever process is evolved to assembling 3.9 that an
> update stream would be established as a last word.

Yes.  It looks like we will probably use Installer for this.

> -my other wish is there would be a "full" image team.
> These fine folks would be responsible for deciding
> what packages would be released as "3.10" full.  One
> of the tests for the release is that these packages
> could be loaded and work as the 3.10 basic image goes
> along.

My plan is that, once a testing environment is set up, we will certify
packages as "confirming" or "official" or "compatible".  (I'm still
looking for a good name.)  This means that they load into the image
and do not break any tests, and their tests pass, too.  it is too much
trouble to do this testing by hand, but once we have an automatic way
of doing it then it should not be hard to keep a lot of packages on
the list.

> -My final wish is to, as soon as possible, get back to
> a state where version histories are present enough so
> those of us who bug track have a way of finding out
> when and how things changed. Who changed them. And a
> good chance of guessing why and with what intent. I am
> indeed having difficulty with that with 3.9-7067.

I'm not sure what you mean by this.  We want to have a complete
history of what we did so it is possible to go back and time to find
when things stopped working.  Why can't you do this for 3.9?

-Ralph

Damien Cassou wrote:
> What do you exactly mean when you ask for a "full" image ?
>


I guess the usual stuff:

http://wiki.squeak.org/squeak/3412

... if the idea of minimal/basic/full images has been dropped, please
correct me.


Stef

On 9-Jan-07, at 10:12 AM, Ralph Johnson wrote:

Ralph, the problem is that during the 3.9 dev cycle the changes file  
ran out space and was compressed. So all those version histories went  
away :-(

Now , I *do* have a partly complete rework of the source accessing  
stuff (and bugger all spare time to do anything with it) that could  
avoid that problem. It would, technically, be plausible to add that  
to a 3.8.1 image and then load all the packages Marcus built during  
the 3.9 work (at huge cost to his sanity, sleep and social life) and  
*not* do the compression. That should get us a 3.9 with all version  
info intact. A lot of work - and I'm not volunteering to do it! - but  
you might consider it as an option. The extra good news is that with  
a more flexible source code access system in place one could consider  
ways of storing version history off to the side in some manner so  
that you can have it or not at will. Just one of the benefits of  
getting away from a string assumption of integer indices into text  
files as your only source access.


tim
--
tim Rowledge; [hidden email]; http://www.rowledge.org/tim
Useful random insult:- He fell out of the ugly tree and hit every  
branch on the way down.

tim Rowledge puso en su mail :
I suggest some like this to Ralph too.

But first we need sure the Klaus solution for bigger sources files or the
Jerome proposal in Mantis about this was adopted.

And no forget about Dan's compressed sources, he does a long time ago and
never was used

When the sources schema was choosed,  then all 3.8.1 -> 3.10 alpha travel
could be done.

I volunteer to do if Markus , you or some said what the steps are.
Then , when a complete 3.10 alpha and his history was builded , the image
should put in official ftp.

Agree ?

Edgar



       

       
               
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Edgar J. De Cleene skrev: You don't have to start from 3.8.1 just get the latest 3.9 before the
source compression. It should be on ftp.squeak.org

Karl

karl puso en su mail :

> You don't have to start from 3.8.1 just get the latest 3.9 before the
> source compression. It should be on ftp.squeak.org
>
> Karl
Ok, less work this way.

But still the sources problem.

1) Pick the Klaus solution ?
2) Pick the Jerome solution ?
3) Go with Dan ?

What is better / safer / future worth ?

Edgar



       

       
               
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Squeak3.10alpha.7069.zip is now mirrored @

- ftp://squeak.cobss.ch/pub/

/Klaus

P.S. Happy New Year to you Edgar, and to everybody else :)

On Tue, 09 Jan 2007 18:07:55 +0100, Edgar J. De Cleene  
<[hidden email]> wrote:

Klaus D. Witzel puso en su mail :

> Squeak3.10alpha.7069.zip is now mirrored @
>
> - ftp://squeak.cobss.ch/pub/
>
> /Klaus
>
> P.S. Happy New Year to you Edgar, and to everybody else :)
Ok.
I send mails private, but seems you are on vacation.
Feliz año nuevo amigo !

To all:
Keep I mind what this image should be intended as experimental and for
collecting complaints.

If something are wrong or all dislike, always could change.
The key is, we are moving.

If any what loads fine in 3.7 don't load into this image, I wish know for
learn why not.

Now the idea is use Universes and not SqueakMap as principal way of load
packages , and what this image could be used by new beginners Squeakers.

But the image have Installer, so read about how use it , it's easy and
powerful.

In the ways , once what we discuss in our list, I like have some news/help
easy system into.

So new people not only could load updates , also could read news and have
some help without leaving Squeak.

What you think ?

Edgar



       

       
               
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